[Closed] University giving me chronic rage syndrome

A 26 year old female patient presents symptoms to physicians that are most likely psychogenic/anxiety related - the patient has decided to take a new natural medicine for whatever it is that is wrong with them. It seems to be working as their symptoms subside, the medics who are involved in the case do not discourage the patient to stop taking the natural remedy as they've decided the placebo effect has relieved her anxiety. Three weeks later the patient develops liver failure and dies, several years later after extensive studies have been performed on the plant extract it's realized that this plant can cause liver failure in patients taking combined oral contraceptives.

But it was the patient who decided to take the placebo, the drs cant nurse maid everyone, and who would know repeated taping of a keyboard would give you repetive strain injury when typewriters where invented, ie if they didnt know then but discobvered it latter on, thens the time to take action, not before the event.

I think you're missing a key point in providing patient focussed healh care. Informed patient choice. In the example case you've highlighted, there was not enough data for a physician to recommend the natural remedy themselves, but it was the patient who chose to take it. As a medic, the best course of action here would be to emphasise the risks of taking an untested or low evidence based remedy, and if they still decide to go ahead then it is their choice.

You cannot force remedies/treatments on people if they are given enough information to make an informed choice. That's what the biopsychosocial model of healthcare is all about rather than the biomedical where 'doctor' always knows best.

And 'data' alone wouldn't be a correct answer either as the most important aspect. I agree with you that patient care and data are not mutually exclusive in ebm so perhaps it shouldn't be as simple as a single answer, but if I were to choose one over the other in an exam situation 'patient care' is always the priority.

several years later after extensive studies have been performed on the plant extract it's realized that this plant can cause liver failure in patients taking combined oral contraceptives.

Mostly due to this point i would say that there was no failure here and the clinicians did what was reasonably believed to be best for the patient. At the time of treatment the evidence didn't exist to say that the herbal remedy would be counter productive and again at the time it appeared to be benficial so there would be no reason to request the patient to stop using it. That's always going to be the way with medical treatments, what is considered the gold standard today could be considered poor practice in 10-25 years time.

However...

You can't make the best possible choice or inform a patient of their best choices without good evidence.

This I agree with completely. And for what it worth the original question does sound a bit like it's designed to trip you up rather than teach you anything.

And whilst i'm not trying to pick an argument I do find peoples opinions on these things enlightening so I have one more question for you.

Would you put a 90 year old man through many months worth of painful inconvenient treatment to prolong his life by an additional 6 months? It's an ideal world scenario, money and treatment are infinite and his treatment is not taking resources from another area, it's just about the patient and the clinical outcome.

Yeah for sure, I totally agree with you on that.

I guess what I'm was to get as is that there was no one answer to the question that was more right than the other. Data, clinical expertise and patient values are all equally important.

Would you put a 90 year old man through many months worth of painful inconvenient treatment to prolong his life by an additional 6 months? It's an ideal world scenario, money and treatment are infinite and his treatment is not taking resources from another area, it's just about the patient and the clinical outcome.

Of course not muppet! But I guess not forcing an old man to take painful treatments at the age of 90 was common sense. But this was kind of my point, good patient care should always be the objective or outcome of techniques such as EBM. But what really drives the ability of a clinician to help inform a patient of their choices is the underlying evidence!

I totally agree with your post muppetwrangler - maybe I just over-analyzed the question to much in the exam.

muppetWrangler - Member

Would you put a 90 year old man through many months worth of painful inconvenient treatment to prolong his life by an additional 6 months? It's an ideal world scenario, money and treatment are infinite and his treatment is not taking resources from another area, it's just about the patient and the clinical outcome.

No, I will get him to a strip club so he will die happy with a big grin on his face. Patient care that!

Or hire dirty nurses to look after him at his own house ... you know those with really really micro minis.

bwaarp - Member

Yeah for sure, I totally agree with you on that.

I guess what I'm was to get as is that there was no one answer to the question that was more right than the other. Data, clinical expertise and patient values are all equally important.

The answers are All important but [b]where is the priority[/b]? I bet you are tested on that. Ask your lecturer and I bet it will be that.

Or hire dirty nurses to look after him at his own house ... you know those with really really micro minis.

Get that man a stethoscope, he's hired.

Ok there are 2 points here
1 bwaarp has presented something he was marked wrong on and claims to be right. There may be debate and part of stw may agree with either response. Taking a stw said I was right note in wont get you more marks.

2 bwaarp missed the point of the questions and still does nit know why.

Ho talk to the lecturer and find out. Either there was a mistake or you missed the point. If you were wrong then I suspect unless you mtfu and admit it the rest of the module may be a right off.

Learning it's got a bit to do with listening. If you decide you know better you will learn nothing. That is your waste of money.

Learning it's got a bit to do with listening. If you decide you know better you will learn nothing. That is your waste of money.

Good point.

Although I will add that there was one question that read exactly as follows "Which of the following drugs is used in the treatment of colorectal cancer"

And the choice was between Cetuximab and Bevacizumab plus a couple of randoms.

Can anyone explain that one to me, was it the lecturers idea of a joke? If it was, it was totally lost on me.

muppetWrangler - Member

Or hire dirty nurses to look after him at his own house ... you know those with really really micro minis.

Get that man a stethoscope, he's hired.

But I prefer to be a gynaecologist doing all the poking and probing ... not looking after old men.

However, I will definitely give all those nurses free checking when they wear micro minis ...

bwaarp - Member

Can anyone explain that one to me, was it the lecturers idea of a joke? If it was, it was totally lost on me.

You failed ... (in Family Guy's Stewie's accent)

You faileddd ... (in Family Guy's Stewie's accent)

Explain how you are meant to choose between those two drugs given the the lack of detail in the question. Eenie meenie miney mo?

bwaarp - Member
You faileddd ... (in Family Guy's Stewie's accent)
Explain how you are meant to choose between those two drugs given the the lack of detail in the question.

ASK THE F'IN LECTURER

ASK THE F'IN LECTURER

She hasn't replied to my e-mails. In fact she hasn't replied to half the classes angry e-mails.

In that case all get together, get your points down and make an appointment with her (or ask to discuss it in the next lecture) also in the world of academia not replying to an e-mail for a few days is probably the norm...

bwaarp - Member

You faileddd ... (in Family Guy's Stewie's accent)

Explain how you are meant to choose between those two drugs given the the lack of detail in the question. Eenie meenie miney mo?

You failllleedd ... again.

[url= http://www.nice.org.uk/nicemedia/live/13651/57924/57924.pdf ]Here some answer for you ... [/url]

To go back to the question we all seem so hung up on, and with no relevant expertise in the subject (but this is, after all, STW) it strikes me that the problem here is in the ambiguous nature of the word [i]aspect [/i] in this context. Had the question used, say, [i]component[/i] then the OP's answer would be correct. Had the question used [i]outcome[/i] or [i]goal[/i] then patient care would (arguably) be more correct.

"Which of the following drugs is used in the treatment of colorectal cancer"

you sure it wasn't "which one isn't...?"

Yup. I have the question and answer in front of me.

You failllleedd ... again.

Here some answer for you ...

That paper is all well and good for deciding a drug regimen when you have a more detailed question/patient profile.

She hasn't replied to my e-mails. In fact she hasn't replied to half the classes angry e-mails.

She's probably busy doing her job, researching, gathering evidence...

It's very easy to bag lecturers for not caring about teaching, and in some cases it's warranted. But, you have to understand that especially in the better, research-led, institutes, that it is your lecturer's grant capture and publication output by which she will be judged by her employers. If not her current employers, then any future employers and her peers.

And obviously without research, there is nothing to be taught.

And obviously without research, there is nothing to be taught.

Definitely, I'm in complete agreement with you Zokes.

I do however think there is a fine line between a blatant disregard for teaching and being busy due to research etc. It doesn't take much to write semi-competent MCQ's. I could riff off 100 well worded questions answers 3 hours or so.

After all, at the end of the day you have a duty to pass on the knowledge that others so kindly taught you. I'd like to think that if I was in her position, I would do my best to try to inspire the next generation of academics and not lead them down the road towards cynicism.

I have some lecturers who are great, you can get tea/coffee with them to discuss various topics and they take a genuine interest in engaging with you. Now I do not expect that from everyone as I know this is hard. I do however expect a little effort and time on the part of a lecturer, being given to students.

Sometimes assessment isn't designed to find out what you know, it can be designed to examine how you'd react to a stressful experience.
Weeds out the cocks.

Yes I know all about those kinds of tests, they're great if you're in the military or someones testing your ability to keep calm in a dire clinical situation.

Not really the point in a purely academic situation is it.

After all, at the end of the day you have a duty to pass on the knowledge that others so kindly taught you. I'd like to think that if I was in her position, I would do my best to try to inspire the next generation of academics and not lead them down the road towards cynicism.

I write papers. These will be in your library. You can read them, and gain knowledge. Judging by my citations, plenty of others have worked it out 😉

As others have said, you're at university to learn, and the onus is on you to do that. At school you are taught, and the onus there is indeed a lot on the teachers to deliver that information.

It's not my field so I can't pass qualified comment on the questions in hand, but it does appear from the resultant thread that it is not black and white that the lecturer was wrong in this instance.

Of course Zokes, but there has to be a certain level of engagement by the lecturer.

Otherwise what's the point? I could get the same education by reading your papers whilst I was in an on the job training scheme.

I know full well that at Oxbridge the level of actual teaching/lecturing is of a much higher quality than what many students have experienced, with lower student to staff ratio's and a lot more one on one tuition. So I do disagree slightly with the idea that lecturers can get away with putting very little effort in because students are meant to be doing everything themselves.

This could be the OP's most valuable lesson.

The purpose of a test is to give the answers the examiners are looking for.

A bit like Vettel on Sunday. The purpose of a race is to win. No, I can't see what the fuss is about.

The purpose of a test is to give the answers the examiners are looking for.

That's probably where I'm not able to compromise, ever.

But, some of these questions were just wrong or badly worded. eg the colorectal cacner drug question. That's all there is to it.

You're not going to pass then are you?

Or did I mean Psaa?

No I'll pass, just not with the mark I worked for.

That's probably where I'm not able to compromise, ever.

If there is a problem with the test thats one thing, getting wound up and trying to ask everyone on an internet forum while getting more wound up is another. It's not healthy....

As plenty have said above the uni system is slow and plodding but nothing happens till the end of the year really. Appeal, try and get a meeting with the lecturer - try knocking on their door and asking rather than e-mailing. Speak to your personal tutor about it.

But in the end let it go.

For sure. During the OP I was just wound up and stressed (I'd spent dozens of hours revising for example when and which colorectal cancer drugs to give and was then faced with the most inane question I have ever read in my life). After that I was defending myself.

I'd taken the test very seriously, as we were told to. It seemed to me that the lecturer hadn't.

Thanks anyway chaps. It was fun arguing some more with you lot.

Can I ask exactly what it is you are studying? And what will you do at the end of it?

I've no doubt you know your stuff regarding EBM and obviously have some prior medical knowledge/background but seriously if you are going to be working with members of the public and get so worked up and stressed about things, you will make yourself ill or simply won't be doing it for long.

And I don't mean that to be deliberately provoking. Its genuine advice - working with/for patients is a serious mental drain sometimes...

bevacazimab - is that the answer to the colorectal cancer question?

I've no doubt you know your stuff regarding EBM and obviously have some prior medical knowledge/background but seriously if you are going to be working with members of the public and get so worked up and stressed about things, you will make yourself ill or simply won't be doing it for long.

And I don't mean that to be deliberately provoking. Its genuine advice - working with/for patients is a serious mental drain sometimes...

I've worked in plenty of stressful situations, what get's my gloat is when I'm paying for that privilege.

Everyone has good and bad days, it happens when you've been stuck inside all day for weeks during the deadline period. I've gotten over it now. Just needed to vent, it's better to let that out than bottle it up hey?

Today one of my lecturers issued an in class MCQ examinations, you get four choices of answers.

Out of 26 questions.

Good job she didn't ask 29 questions, his head would have exploded

I'll ignore that, have a nice day mate! 😀

You failed ... According to Stewie Griffin. 😆

bwaarp - Member

I do however think there is a fine line between a blatant disregard for teaching and being busy due to research etc. It doesn't take much to write semi-competent MCQ's. I could riff off 100 well worded questions answers 3 hours or so.

Teaching ... errmm ... again you failed ... You learnnnn ...

Sounds like you are learning to pass a test rather than learning to do things right? No, I will complain if you set 100 questions ripping off from some Q&A books.

After all, at the end of the day you have a duty to pass on the knowledge that others so kindly taught you. I'd like to think that if I was in her position, I would do my best to try to inspire the next generation of academics and not lead them down the road towards cynicism.

They learned(in Stewie's tone) ...

Inspire? You mean you are not motivated and need some kick starts? Errmmm ... " ... lead them down ... " that's easy for you to say provided you are not faced with demanding, attention seeking, fame culture, money first, me, me, me ... kind of students then you are fine.

I have some lecturers who are great, you can get tea/coffee with them to discuss various topics and they take a genuine interest in engaging with you. Now I do not expect that from everyone as I know this is hard. I do however expect a little effort and time on the part of a lecturer, being given to students.

They are not your new found best mate you know. They do not need to give you the time of the day apart from those stipulated in their contract you know. Just because you pay for your tuition fees you think you can demand more? The purpose of exam is as simple as testing you in various conditions or to filter out those wannabes.

Soz, couldn't resist!

Chewkw, I might listen to you if you could string a coherent sentence together. As it appears, you're ability to do so is no better than my lecturers.

They do not need to give you the time of the day apart from those stipulated in their contract you know. Just because you pay for your tuition fees you think you can demand more?

No, I just think it's reasonable to assume that exams lack grammatical mistakes, lack spelling mistakes, lack answers that are repeated twice, include only one correct answer instead of two correct answers (where one is deemed wrong) and lack questions whereby two answers are exactly the same.

I've worked in plenty of stressful situations, what get's my gloat is when I'm paying for that privilege.

'Get's my gloat'? Oh dear. 😡

I have to admit that when I was at uni (both times) some of the lecturing was absolutely shocking. I had one maths professor who never made eye contact with a single student throughout the year - just stared at the back of the hall looking over the heads of 100 people. Tutoring sessions were a simple inconvenience between their latest research.

If I'd been paying £9k a year I would have been seriously p*d off!

Get's my gloat'? Oh dear.

God damnit! Sunk my own battleship, read "goat".

And the apostrophe?

Chewkw, I might listen to you if you could string a coherent sentence together. As it appears, [b]you're[/b] ability to do so is no better than my lecturers.

Oh teh ironing. 🙂

Okay Grum you win this time.

Git.

*Sheepishly put's dunce hat on*

bwaarp - Member

Chewkw, I might listen to you if you could string a coherent sentence together. As it appears, you're ability to do so is no better than my lecturers.

You failed ... you think you are better than your lecturers.

[img] [/img]

mulv1976 - Member

If I'd been paying £9k a year I would have been seriously p*d off!

You failed too because foreign (ahem ... overseas) students pay more than you for years!

Yay I win teh internetz!

I hope that apostrophe in 'put's' is there as a joke!

You failed too because foreign students pay more than you.

Doesn't that kind of play into my point? They pay even more extortionate fees and should therefore probably get semi-competent lecturers.

I hope that apostrophe in 'put's' is there as a joke!

😛

I'm trying to have some fun. Realized I just put "You're" where I shouldn't have.....FFS!

I'll get my coat....screw you guys....I'm going home.

bwaarp - Member

Doesn't that kind of play into my point? They pay even more extortionate fees and should therefore probably get semi-competent lecturers.

No, paying fees got nothing to do with your ability to learn.

[img] [/img]

You failed too because foreign (ahem ... overseas) students pay more than you for years!

I 'fail' to see your point. I'm sure they'd be pissed off too. The extent of pissed off-ness is not necessarily proportional to cost, its proportional to quality.

Edit: Second thoughts - you're just trolling so forget it.

No it doesn't but it does have everything to do with getting an education, there is a difference.

Also I don't really see what learning has to do with poor or shoddy course material and examinations.

In fact I'm slightly perplexed by your choice of insults really, as a fellow troll I know one when I see them.

Anyway....I'm definitely off to bed now.

[img] [/img]

mulv1976 - Member
I'm sure they'd be pissed off too.

They sure do, yes, they sure do (Peter Griffin calm voice) ... except that majority tend to get on with learning. Well, that's based on my years at Uni.

They sure do, yes, they sure do (Peter Griffin calm voice) ... except that majority tend to get on with learning. Well, that's based on my years at Uni.

Sounds like you spent most of the time watching family guy 😀

bwaarp - Member
She hasn't replied to my e-mails. In fact she hasn't replied to half the classes angry e-mails.

Do you have any idea how many emails lecturers get? I got 14 today from students. Unfortunately i haven't been able to reply to any because i've been in meetings all day. I'm on leave tomorrow, so the students will have to wait until Tuesday.

But at least yours has replied to half the class.

Also worth mentioning we're bang in the middle of the offers phase of the UCAS cycle- if your lecturer is involved in selection, currently they probably have no free time at all.

Do you have any idea how many emails lecturers get? I got 14 today from students. Unfortunately i haven't been able to reply to any because i've been in meetings all day. I'm on leave tomorrow, so the students will have to wait until Tuesday.

Ditto. I get about 50 a day, and that's pretty low compared to some of my more senior colleagues. That's also without undergrads, as currently being at a research institute, I have no teaching role.

I should add, most of those 50 actually need something to happen, be it a reply or some other form of action. On an average eight hour working day (which is so far from the truth it's laughable), that would be one every 15 minutes. At some point, I'm expected to actually do my job too.

Assuming your lecturer is in a similar position, plus the load of teaching, I find it very unsurprising that you've not had a reply. These days, when academics say they are "too busy", they really really mean it.

Just think of how much you could have learned in the library in the time you've spent not defending your case here. I'd suggest a book on basic English grammar would be a start, given your grocers' apostrophe tendencies.

The lecturer is only at the university because a private company pays for her to be there.....she took on one module as a leader to earn some more money.

She only teaches this module and she has pawned all but one of the lessons out to guest speakers. She has nothing to do with admissions - if she's so busy that she can't run one module effectively then it's questionable whether she should be running it.

I just found this out in an e-mail from an inside source. Fun times. As for the lecturers on here whining about how hard their jobs are, try working in the real world where you deal with customers. If people are paying extortionate amounts for an education expect them to act like consumers.

Let me also add I've just about had enough of the way universities seem to think they can get away with dire incompetency....for example I've had three pieces of coursework lost on separate occasions in close succession by one university departmental office. Nothing was done about that and they seemed to be perfectly happy to try and accuse me of never handing the work in until I produced photo's of my work being posted through the pigeon holes. I never once received an apology for that one from the staff involved.

I'm going to go stateside next time where they understand the concept of competing for students money instead of taking it for granted.

Also, I find it somewhat hilarious that some people on here seem to think that a basic level of care is to hard here are the first ones to bang on about care at mid staffordshire etc. I mean if we can't expect a lecturer to do a simple task like this properly what hope is there for medics in A&E departments up and down the country?

Brilliant way to encourage students to do their jobs well. Just brilliant.... encouraging a culture of mediocrity right from the outset.

Don't panic. You're perfect for an NHS career. You've got moaning down to a fine art already.

It doesn't take much to write semi-competent MCQ's. I could riff off 100 well worded questions answers 3 hours or so.

Actually, writing good exam questions is hard. I'm not talking about the quality of the writing (which sounds like the real issue here) but pitching the level correctly. Not too hard, not too easy, and somehow testing the student's ability in an area rather than ability to pass a test.

Not my area so I can't understand the details of the questions in doubt, but is it possible that they're simpler than you think? Can often be the case if you're a good student, seeing complexity where there is none.

Lecturers! - where do I start. Just spent the last two weeks completing some research for my degree, and the Doc leading it is nothing short of fantastic.
In contrast we had a lazy stupid statistics lecturer who decided to drop a new exam format on us. It was untested,used really slow software AND the b***y thing had to be completed in an hour.By minute 45, I had 6 out of 14 Q's in the bag (and yes I had revised and knew my subject pretty well).It was so slow, none of us managed to finish the exam. So what did they do - gave equivalent marks from previous years students.
Wot! - seriously! - moaning did diddly squat (I'm the student rep and have an excellent relationship with teaching staff - or so I thought).
Upshot is that, lecturer stupid is still teaching, we got stuffed and moaning got us marks from other students.

Good luck with your protest mate.

try working in the real world

You should take your own advice.

paying extortionate amounts

It's not really though, is it?

I'm going to go stateside

Well, at least something good will come out of this whole saga. Good luck paying for it.

bwaarp - Member

I just found this out in an e-mail from an inside source. Fun times. As for the lecturers on here whining about how hard their jobs are, try working in the real world where you deal with customers. If people are paying extortionate amounts for an education expect them to act like consumers.

Oh you just used the magic words: real world.

The idea universities and academia are not in the real is so grotesquely stupid any student that mentions it should be failed on the grounds of lacking any critical faculties. Here's what i've had to deal with in my cushy little job in my ivory tower since January:

- Ten colleagues being made redundant because while their roles are important from an academic perspective, but management have decided we can do with them - we can't. That is ten families living in the real world who have lost their main earner.

- Management who want to renegotiate our contracts because some consultant told them to. The impact will be lower standard of teaching and research unless we work our asses off on unpaid overtime. That is our families with less time to spend with mums and dads.

- Then there are the students who come to me with problems: [edit]on second thoughts i had better not list them in case anyone knows me, but imagine the worst problems posted on STW in the last two years, then consider these are happening to students aged 18-22, many living away from home[/edit]. As well as trying to maintain excellent teaching standards, attempting to scrape enough time together to research and publish, i have to help these students through these massive problems. You know what is even better? I can't tell my colleagues about most of these issues because of data protection and promises of confidentiality.

- There's the government increasing our pension contributions - against a recent agreement not to - to pay down the deficit (our contributions don't go into a pension pot, they go straight to the Treasury). Plus we've gone four years with a proper pay rise.

But yeah, apart from that we live in a world separate from everyone else protected from the horrors of reality. Oh, and we also have to deal with the small percentage of students who think that just because they are paying for a degree they know better than us, despite the fact we're experts in our field, with decades of teaching experience.

...and breath

mulv1976 - Member

Sounds like you spent most of the time watching family guy

Waahhhhaatt! (Stevie Griffin in his "surprise" tone)
[img] [/img]

What was the answer to the drug question?