I've just returned from a weekend in Poland, where my friends are seriously worried about Russia. An academic mate has had to cancel plans for a conference because the government is saving its Zlotys for bullets. Putin has put tanks into Ukraine, and a Russian minister has threatened to bomb Poland & the Baltics if NATO puts any bases there.
Putin has also said that he could conquer Kiev in a fortnight if he wanted. And he probably will.
Why aren't we more concerned?
Nukes. End of.
CMD has a piece of paper signed by the Russians saying they won't invade Poland, he was waving it around.
sounds good to me.
Cause it's none of my business.Moses - Member
Why aren't we more concerned?
Keep Calm Everybody....Tony Blair will be along soon to save us all, after the great job he has done as Peace Envoy for the Middle East. 😆
@moses I am very concerned.
Putin has always made it clear he would not tolerate a NATO member as a direct neighbour. NATO creating a quick responce force of 4,000 isn't going to bother Putin, its like " see your 4,000 and raise you 40,000". The sanctions which have been put in place will start to hurt Russia but it's a game of "chicken" as European banks have lend $100's of billions to Russian companies and if there is further conflict they won't get it back. Also the US sees this as a European problem, the US has very little trade with Russia and wants the EU to take the lead. With the winter approaching Putin can once again switch the gas off to Ukraine.
why are you not more concerned? not sure
all putin is really trying to do is re-unify the USSR, break the back of the $ as the world currency and shoot some wildlife in his spare time.
Still, do you want him to side against IS
We need to be very concerned about all this.
No idea what the solution is. Putin has gone all Hitler on us, and has the potential to really impact tbe European economy even without going to war, let alone what we do if he properly starts annexing countries.
Mind you, if we took possession of all Russian owned assets over here we could pay off the deficit.
Does everyone remember the last time the Russians attacked a former Soviet country that was being considered for NATO membership?
It wasn't a massive deal.
I do not believe for a second that they will attack Poland. Nor will they make so much mischief in Ukraine that they provoke a serious NATO response. They will make an appreciable nuisance of themselves, and we will impose substantial trade sanctions. They are conducting a very limited war rather than trying to invade Kiev precisely because they do not want to fight in earnest.
I'm not sure I fully understand his motives, he says he is protecting ethinc Russians in other states/regions but if Putin is trying to expand his borders, given that there are many more established nations, how woud he control them all? Surely he would end up with no trade with Europe and be spending huge sums on keeping out/fighting insurgents?
@morecash
Putin has gone all Hitler on us
Did you see the speech he gave to the school kids recently, he was comparing the West to Hitler in attacking Russians living in Ukraine and how he was coming to their rescue.
Mind you, if we took possession of all Russian owned assets over here we could pay off the deficit.
Sadly it wouldn't make much of a dent 😥
Also the US sees this as a European problem, the US has very little trade with Russia and wants the EU to take the lead. With the winter approaching Putin can once again switch the gas off to Ukraine.
I don't think the US does see it as a wholly European problem
They're desperate to break the gas reliance some of Europe has on Russian supplies and it certainly isn't just a commercial venture.
[url= http://www.cityam.com/1409592437/putin-has-won-ukraine-west-can-still-salvage-long-game ]John Hulsman.[/url]
Putin is mental!!! All that topless shark wrestling and stuff! Absolutely hatstand
But I don't know if he's mental enough to start a proper fight with a NATO member. Actually.... thinking about it... he is that mental, isn't he?
Whats clear as day, in Ukraine, is that he doesn't give a flying one what anyone outside Russia thinks, as he knows he's got most opt the west by the short and curllies. The entire European economy is awash with dodgy laundered russian moolah (they own most of London FFS!), and dependent on its energy exports. We're not going to do a bloody thing! And he knows it!
The Americans can sabre rattle all they like. They'll have no allies in Europe as the potential fall-out would be catastrophic for the Euro economy
@surrounded - Putin wants a buffer zone of friendly states around him and certainly no NATO members. The Ukrainians overthrew the Putin supported Government so he annexed Crimea. The fact is Crimea and Eastern Ukraine is primarily ethnic Russians.
As for trade with Europe its a game of chicken, he knows Europe wants to sell goods to Russia and that Europe needs Russian gas.
@binners the Americans aren't going to do much of anything, as far as they are concerned its a European problem and they want Europe to take the lead.
FTFY.jambalaya - Member
The EU supported rebels overthrew the Putin supported Government so he annexed Crimea. The fact is Crimea and Eastern Ukraine is primarily ethnic Russians.
the Russian scare stories we hear these days are just because the EU ****ed up their plan and Putin took advantage.
I'd wager all Putin is doing now is annexing a little bit more of the Ukraine, I doubt there's a hope in hell they'd attack Poland.
Putin has always made it clear he would not tolerate a NATO member as a direct neighbour. NATO creating a quick responce force of 4,000 isn't going to bother Putin, its like " see your 4,000 and raise you 40,000". The sanctions which have been put in place will start to hurt Russia but it's a game of "chicken" as European banks have lend $100's of billions to Russian companies and if there is further conflict they won't get it back. Also the US sees this as a European problem, the US has very little trade with Russia and wants the EU to take the lead. With the winter approaching Putin can once again switch the gas off to Ukraine.
If you seriously think Putin has the balls to attack an EU member state then you're having a laugh. And we'd have plenty of warning of an impending invasion as well. This isn't the 1930's, satellites will warn of us of any serious mobilisation against the EU.
Secondly, if you think the EU can't respond conventionally, then you are wrong. We have 600 4.5 generation fighters and 1000 4th generation fighters, the Russian air force doesn't look so scary now does it?
Well the problem;s been bubbling away for some time now and it's not gone away...
I suspect government are far more worried than we think - Putin's a sharp operator and is playing the long game for Russian glory and maintaining his own grip on power.
I don't think he wants to go to war - he's calculating rather than mad and even under current financial constraints, US and Europe are very well equipped militarily.
However, he definitely wants us to think he's prepared to go further.
WW1 was by some estimates an accident - the opposing powers didn't want to go to war but pushed the brinkmanship too far. He may end up doing this if we don't take care and always leave him a get-out...
I do hope it takes the Russian money out of London houses so I can afford somewhere to live!
@Tom, that's not what I said. Putin wants a barrier of non EU/NATO states, so that he can control/invade those neutral states if absolutely necessary - that's what he's done in the Ukraine. Poland is an exception of course.
From Stratfor.com a political and security opinion website, quite a scary "recommendation"
[i][b]The United States ought to adopt the policy of the Cold War[/b]. That consisted of four parts. First, allies were expected to provide the geographical foundation of defense and substantial forces to respond to threats. Second, the United States was to provide military and economic aid as necessary to support this structure. Third, the United States was to pre-position some forces as guarantors of U.S. commitment and as immediate support. And fourth, Washington was to guarantee the total commitment of all U.S. forces to defending allies, although the need to fulfill the last guarantee never arose.
[/i]
[url= http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/ukraine-iraq-and-black-sea-strategy#axzz3CAf1CYvB ]link[/url]
Just saw Putin in Starbucks in Wroclaw.
He ordered a decaf soya americano with extra chilli sauce.
MoreCashThanDash - Member
We need to be very concerned about all this.
Disagree, "shite and couldn't give a" springs to mind.
The United States ought to adopt the policy of the Cold War. That consisted of four parts. First, allies were expected to provide the geographical foundation of defense and substantial forces to respond to threats. Second, the United States was to provide military and economic aid as necessary to support this structure. Third, the United States was to pre-position some forces as guarantors of U.S. commitment and as immediate support. And fourth, Washington was to guarantee the total commitment of all U.S. forces to defending allies, although the need to fulfill the last guarantee never arose.
What's so scary about this? The scarier option is to do nothing.
MoreCashThanDash - Member
We need to be very concerned about all this.Disagree, "shite and couldn't give a" springs to mind.
Agreed, compared to what is happening in [s]Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan[/s] the middle east, this is just war games.
Don't worry, you haven't seen the wrath of Finland yet, wait to see what happens when Russia puts one foot on Polish soil, it'll rain, fire, brimstone and Kaalikääryleet down on Putins head.
Tom - a return to full cold war status would cost us all a huge amount in extra taxes to fund a rebuilding of our military. I don't have the numbers to hand of military now vs when all the troops where in Germany in the 70's. I think the US alone had 500,000 troops in Germany, aside from the armies being smaller all the equipment and facilities have been lost and today's replacements are much much more expensive.
Why aren't we more concerned?
Because the Ukraine is not a NATO member, and Europe has been caught pissing in Russia's back yard!
The EU nations support of the violent and unconstitutional overthrow of a democratically elected president in Ukraine is intolerable, utterly shameful! Whatever we may feel about Russia's influence and actions after that cannot and must not take away from the fact that there was a coup, and we in the west backed it.
Poland and the other new NATO members can cry all they like, I would take their bleatings of fear more seriously if they had been investing in their own defence forces, but none of them have come close to the annual spend of the key NATO countries (in GDP, let alone total figures)
Nor is what Russia have been doing in Ukraine really any different from the meddling we in UK and the US did in countless countries over the past decade and a bit - we supported and openly intervened where it was in our own interests. The moral panic is misplaced, we're at least as bad as the Russians, probably worse - the hypocrisy of our own governments is rank!
The West needs to look at itself in the mirror and ask why does NATO still exist 25 years after the fall of the Berlin Wall, and why the EU is so intent on expanding eastwards.
I agree with ninfan, jebus! 
Poland and the other new NATO members can cry all they like, I would take their bleatings of fear more seriously if they had been investing in their own defence forces, but none of them have come close to the annual spend of the key NATO countries
You mean the UK, Greece and Estonia? Neither Germany or France do either, or anyone else for that matter.
The west have invaded a fair few countries, recently Afghanistan and Iraq spring to mind we were there for a few years leveled some towns tried to install an acceptable government and then legged it when the sectarian bit of a mess got too unbearable.
I can't see that Putin will end up doing it any worse than we did.
Of course an ex colleague who's since returned to Ukraine doesn't see it that way.
She's wondering why Europe doesn't seem bothered that Russia has hundreds of tanks and soldiers currently running around Ukraine, her and her mates on facebook are taking his recent comment that he could capture Kiev in 2 days very seriously and I suspect that every former soviet state is probably similarly concerned.
The EU nations support of the violent and unconstitutional overthrow of a democratically elected president in Ukraine is intolerable, utterly shameful! Whatever we may feel about Russia's influence and actions after that cannot and must not take away from the fact that there was a coup, and we in the west backed it.
A president who's original mandate was closer ties to the European Union? No wonder people protested/rioted when he turned his back on that policy.
I wish the British were more like that.
A president who's original mandate was closer ties to the European Union? No wonder people protested/rioted when he turned his back on that policy.
Regardless, there was a process within the Ukranian constitution for impeachment of the sitting president, it was not followed - that is not democracy at work, its intolerable
I suspect that every former soviet state is probably similarly concerned.
[IMG] 
[/IMG]
I wish the British were more like that.
I don't.
In so-much that I'd prefer that we just wait to the next election and vote for someone else, rather than start a civil war.
The West promised not to extend NATO eastwards after the unification of Germany. What has happened since? And then Ukraine moves towards EU. How would you expect Russia to react given it's history?
ninfan - Member
Why aren't we more concerned?
Because the Ukraine is not a NATO member, and Europe has been caught pissing in Russia's back yard!The EU nations support of the violent and unconstitutional overthrow of a democratically elected president in Ukraine is intolerable, utterly shameful! Whatever we may feel about Russia's influence and actions after that cannot and must not take away from the fact that there was a coup, and we in the west backed it.
Poland and the other new NATO members can cry all they like, I would take their bleatings of fear more seriously if they had been investing in their own defence forces, but none of them have come close to the annual spend of the key NATO countries (in GDP, let alone total figures)
Nor is what Russia have been doing in Ukraine really any different from the meddling we in UK and the US did in countless countries over the past decade and a bit - we supported and openly intervened where it was in our own interests. The moral panic is misplaced, we're at least as bad as the Russians, probably worse - the hypocrisy of our own governments is rank!
This... Spot on.
The problem comes from 'Us' thinking we 'won' the cold war and crowing about it, nobody likes to feel the underdog, it was exactly the reason WW2 followed WW1. and the West just couldn't leave it alone could they, they had to influence right up to their back door, it's no wonder Putin is so popular.
Then we have a limp wrist in the white house, verging on being a lame duck when it comes to Foreign policy, in thrall to Israel, totally screwed in the middle east not knowing which way to turn in the Arab world and who's looking the least stupid now over the Syria issue?
Let them divide Ukraine it's bloody half Russian anyway who even cares. They won't touch Poland that would cause problems and stupid Putin is not.
Regardless, there was a process within the Ukranian constitution for impeachment of the sitting president, it was not followed - that is not democracy at work, its intolerable
Meh, from what I've read the Ukrainians view their democracy as highly corrupt and never trusted official avenues.
This rings true - "Where a government has come into power through some form of popular vote, fraudulent or not, and maintains at least an appearance of constitutional legality, the guerrilla outbreak cannot be promoted, since the possibilities of peaceful struggle have not yet been exhausted." - Guevara
Lets not forget that initially the unrest was mostly about protesting, however the president lost his appearance of constitutional legality by the way he handled the situation and exhausted the protestors avenues for peaceful struggle. So I'm sorry, but I can't agree with your assertion that their revolution was some sort of outrage.
Putin is out on a limb with the Ukraine. Understandably, there are those in high places in Russia who do not like his grandstanding and chest-thumping any more than we do. War or not, this could yet be his undoing.
Don't forget there is a lot of Russian wealth that is at threat here.
Don't forget there is a lot of Russian wealth that is at threat here.
Allegedly much of it is Putin's.
Hows the weather forecast looking for this winter?
Nice and warm I hope?
That German powerhouse thats underpinning the whole European economy won't be looking forward to a good long cold snap and rocketing gas prices 😈
Tom_W1987 - MemberMeh, from what I've read the Ukrainians view their democracy as highly corrupt and never trusted official avenues.
What and ours isn't?
Can you even smell coffee?
Blimey, i have just read one of Ninfans posts and agreed with him, i am genuinely shocked at myself 😯
But in all seriousness, it's an ugly situation but try and remember that what Putin is doing is nothing more than we and the US have done countless times before. A case of the pot calling the kettle black imo.
Tom W is right, when I asked a Ukrainian about their politics, it was explained that they expected their politicians to be useless and corrupt.
But the young in particular thought EU membership might fix that, when Yanukovich declared for Russia after being elected on a pro EU pledge and it quickly became obvious he'd been Putin's man all along then they kicked off.
Regardless Putin's in a strong position now, he's had plenty of tanks, guns and soldiers in Ukraine for months now, they even shot down a civilian airliner using Russian supplied weapons and the West and NATO have done nothing
There will always be money for Russian gas inspite of any sanctions, he will be fine.
Allegedly much of it is Putin's.
It is now.
All those saying that something must be done - what, exactly? Attacking Russian forces, even if they are in Ukraine won't end well AT ALL.
All those saying that something must be done - what, exactly?
The behind the scenes games seem to be already in motion:
https://news.vice.com/article/nato-isnt-arming-ukraine-just-like-russia-isnt-fighting-there
Because the Ukraine is not a NATO member, and Europe has been caught pissing in Russia's back yard!
What right does Russia have to determine neighbouring countries foreign policies?
The EU nations support of the violent and unconstitutional overthrow of a democratically elected president in Ukraine is intolerable, utterly shameful!
You'll have to blame the previous Ukrainian president for his duplicity in that regard.
Whatever we may feel about Russia's influence and actions after that cannot and must not take away from the fact that there was a coup, and we in the west backed it.
Erm, I'm finding this new found high horse/moral high ground stuff most amusing, considering what what the "west" as you put it have done in the past. I know this is an Anti-EU thing with you Labrat, but siding with Putin is pretty low even by your standards.
Poland and the other new NATO members can cry all they like, I would take their bleatings of fear more seriously if they had been investing in their own defence forces, but none of them have come close to the annual spend of the key NATO countries (in GDP, let alone total figures)
These countries are developing economies, shouldn't expect them to spend the amounts that UK/France/US spend, although they should be told to get as close to the 2% as possible. They are in Nato however and their fear of Russia has been proved right.
Nor is what Russia have been doing in Ukraine really any different from the meddling we in UK and the US did in countless countries over the past decade and a bit - we supported and openly intervened where it was in our own interests. The moral panic is misplaced, we're at least as bad as the Russians, probably worse - the hypocrisy of our own governments is rank!
Well so what?
Regardless Putin's in a strong position now, he's had plenty of tanks, guns and soldiers in Ukraine for months now, they even shot down a civilian airliner using Russian supplied weapons and the West and NATO have done nothing
We have been hamstrung by capitalism. Talk about the "former communists" using it as a weapon against us.
IMO:
* trying to work out Putin's behaviour on the assumption he's rational is an error, he's lost it a bit. Most importantly he hasn't really got any skin in the game. Ordinary Russians and people of other nations will suffer, but he and his oligarch mates will be cosy, regardless of the outcome, so he can sit back and play the great game at his leisure.
* US/Nato/Eu will not intervene militarily in Ukraine, that's already been said. That's all that bothers him, the rest is just saying "don't do that" a bit louder. He'll do whatever he damn wants in Ukraine.
* presumably the Russian military are going to open a land corridor to Crimea. Ain't nobody going to stop them. They'll also leave eastern Ukraine, if not more, in the hands of the "rebels" to create an anarchic buffer zone.
* there is no way on earth he will militarily attack NATO members. The shit would then truly hit the fan, he knows that. But in the meantime the cyber warfare, spreading of political dissent etc will continue. Glasnost and the "peace dividend" are history.
I don't think Poland has cause for concern, in the short term at least. In the long term who knows, we could all be in for it.
What right does Russia have to determine neighbouring countries foreign policies?
Same as we do, and its never stopped us (Balkans, Kosovo, Sierra Lione, Arghanistan, Iraq, Libya...)
You'll have to blame the previous Ukrainian president for his duplicity in that regard.
Doesn't matter, a coup is undemocratic and unsupportable, against everything we're supposed to stand for - the impeachment was in breach of the constitution.
They are in Nato however and their fear of Russia has been proved right.
Has it? I reckon Russia's longstanding fear of Nato/EU expansion through force has been proved right by them backing the overthrow of a democratically elected head of state, leading to the persecution of thousands of Russian speakers and citizens who want to be allowed to cede from Ukraine - or does the right to self determination only apply to Kosovan and Scottish people?
Now who was that hatstand that wrote Mein kampf.
Bet no one thought he was going to annexxe all of Europe
But he had a go, funny thing about people who are in power is sometimes they can go on a power trip and don't give a f
that funny man who wrote mein kampf was a bit of a chancer who got lucky.
he just did a slightly quicker and much better job than old imperial germany had previuosly tried in 1914. the thing was europe was still weak and broke after the 1st round thats why he got away with it.
this is a totally different thing all together, we will stand by and let him do what he wants because all he wants is somewhere to keep the black sea fleet and easy access to suez and the med.
as for risking finances by going to war it's well documented that during the two world wars the US and British banks still provided finance and banking to germany and the other axis powers. putin won't go to war with the west because he doesn't need to. it's not a risk. which is why the headlines are all about some couple who took their kid to spain and some hollywood stars naked snaps.
proof is they shot down an airliner by accident and everyone was like..sh1t..what a bastard. if that was a middle eastern muslim country the daily mail would be flat out along side the sun for sending in the troops.
your right about the polish though they are bricking it as i found out at work the other day, its all they talk about.
This could turn Racist, which would be a REAL problem!
If that airliner had 90 Americans instead of Dutch I think you would have had american special forces securing the crash site.
I wasn't aware that thinking Putin and his goons being ****s implied unstinting support for the policies of the West, but in the world of whataboutery, apparently it does.
My god who's being racist !
If you mean me I was pointing out that hitler just got lucky but once we pulled together he got his arse kicked.
Putin only ever wanted Sebastopol
And the daily mail is shite ?
And also mattjg got it spot on with the land corridor.
I don't know if this is true, but the Ukrainians seem to think the Russians are prepared to use nukes on them:
http://www.newsweek.com/russia-has-threatened-nuclear-attack-says-ukraine-defence-minister-267842
[i]Ukraine's President Petro Poroshenko says he has agreed with Russian President Vladimir Putin by phone on a "permanent ceasefire" with rebels.
"Their conversation resulted in agreement on a permanent ceasefire in the Donbass region [the regions of Donetsk and Luhansk]," his office said.
[/i]
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-29042561
😀
I suspect the ceasefire means Russia doing what they want without being shot at. The Little Green Men will start to popup here and there.
What right does Russia have to determine neighbouring countries foreign policies?Same as we do, and its never stopped us (Balkans, Kosovo, Sierra Lione, Arghanistan, Iraq, Libya...)
...and they're not even neighbouring.
(Balkans, Kosovo, Sierra Lione, Arghanistan, Iraq, Libya...)
Are you seriously comparing the attempted annexation of a sovereign state's territory with peace keeping missions like the Balkans? or Kosovo, which was essentially a (shameful) land grab by ethnic albanians? or Sierra Leone which was humantitarian as much as anything? There was no determination in foreign countries policy at all.
To do so demonstrates a severe lack of understanding in the nature of these ops.
I don't remember Afghanistan or Libya being a land grab either and it's completely debatable as to whether we actually profited or wanted to profit from the Iraq war.
Tom - a return to full cold war status would cost us all a huge amount in extra taxes to fund a rebuilding of our military. I don't have the numbers to hand of military now vs when all the troops where in Germany in the 70's. I think the US alone had 500,000 troops in Germany, aside from the armies being smaller all the equipment and facilities have been lost and today's replacements are much much more expensive.
No need to adopt cold war spending policy but an increase in defense funding is probably a good idea now. Russia isn't the big bear that could come crashing through Europe like it was at the height of the cold war, however Europe needs to develop a cohesive defense policy and structure. The worlds only going to become a scarier place strategically over the next 100 years, in terms of access to resources, trade and food/water. The world is forming into blocks and Europe will find itself rapidly left behind without military clout.
Russia isn't the big bear that could come crashing through Europe like it was at the height of the cold war
It could be argued that it never was. I have spoken to a good few of those who were BAOR, and they have some fascinating stories.
It would seem that we indoctrinated our side to fear the big russian bear on the other side of the wall, however when the wall came down and the soldiers got chatting it transpired that they were just as poorly equipped (if not even worse) as we were and were also similarly convinced by their seniors that we were highly skilled, equipped and to be feared. Funny how those who were to be pitted against each other to the death actually bore no malice towards each other at all.
Europe needs to develop a cohesive defense policy and structure.
This^ without some kind of co ordination we're just a collection of fairly small nations, each could be easily trampled by the big boys (who all hate the idea of the EU, including america)
This^ without some kind of co ordination we're just a collection of fairly small nations, each could be easily trampled by the big boys (who all hate the idea of the EU, including america)
Yup, the conservatives are a bit foolish if they think we can survive without closer integration with Europe. Although perhaps closer military integration could be done without being in the EU, but I don't see how you can have this without political integration.
It would seem that we indoctrinated our side to fear the big russian bear on the other side of the wall, however when the wall came down and the soldiers got chatting it transpired that they were just as poorly equipped (if not even worse) as we were and were also similarly convinced by their seniors that we were highly skilled, equipped and to be feared. [b] Funny how those who were to be pitted against each other to the death actually bore no malice towards each other at all.[/b]
Heh! Usually the case.
On a related note, this is one of those htings that didn't really make the news, but will probably have a big impact on relations with Russia.
Russia has been ordered to pay out $50billion* by the international court in the Hague, to the shareholders of Yukos for forceing it's bancruptcy and breaking it up (remember the dody trial of Mikhail Khodorkovsky and subsequent release just before the Olympics?). Now Russia clearly isnt going to pay up, which paves the way for the siezing of $50bn of it's states assets in the countries which recognise the court in the Hague.
*Youkos produced more oil than Iraq at the time it was broken up.
The scarier option is to do nothing.
Well, Tom, judging by your user name, I guess you'd be the correct age for military service. Put your money where your mouth is.
Conversely...
there is no way on earth he will militarily attack NATO members. The shit would then truly hit the fan, he knows that.
Finland and Sweden are both non-NATO
All a bit of a mess, really!
Yup, the conservatives are a bit foolish if they think we can survive without closer integration with Europe. Although perhaps closer military integration could be done without being in the EU, but I don't see how you can have this without political integration.
NATO, keeping the peace for 66 years.
Finland and Sweden are both non-NATO
Fair point. Though my expectation is they are probably regarded strategically as "one of us" in a way that, from the point of view of western europe, Ukraine isn't.
I reckon if Russia attacked either, NATO would step in. Neither I think does wither country have a block of 'ethnic Russians' that Russia could use to wedge open the door in the way that was done in Ukraine.
In fact were the Fins not the last country to successfully beat the Russians in warfare?
In fact were the Fins not the last country to successfully beat the Russians in warfare?
Do you mean the Finnish Civil War, fought with German assistance?
In fact were the Fins not the last country to successfully beat the Russians in warfare?
Yeah, with a lot of Nazi help (albeit probably grudgingly), and against a Russia that was fighting a war on two fronts already
Nazi
German Imperial Army
I think zokes you are confusing the Finnish Civil War with the Second World War (in which the outcome was rather different).
Civil war? That was 1918 wasn't it? The 1939 winter war wasn't fought with German help.
No not the Winter War. Later in WWII they fought with Germany against Russia. Once the tide turned, so did the Finnish army and kicked out the Germans.
Duplicitous eh? Still - bloody good rally drivers.
Can't blame them really, Finnish culture is quite different to Russian. An enemy of an enemy is a friend etc.
Duplicitous eh?
Pragmatic.