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I'm not sure anyone is ignoring other voices, not least because they continue to converse with you dyna-ti. We're well aware of the friction that the idea of NATO expansion brings but were also somewhat wedded to the idea of democracy and free and fair elections.
We can understand that Putin wants a buffer zone between NATO countries and Russia's border but we don't really know if that's what the Russian people want because any concept of free and fair elections in Russia vanished the moment Putin took up his third term.
I’ll just grab my tin foil hat.
Are you binners in disguise? It's very easy to accuse anyone you disagree with of being a bit mad. Especially if it challenges your core assumptions and beliefs - and they are beliefs, rather than objective judgements.
In the case of that interview what's more likely? That Maitlis somehow, against the will of the royal establishment and the govt, managed to get him to make an idiot of himself on television causing huge embarrassment to queen and the royal family. Or that he was sacrificed by a ruthless establishment to protect the queen, Charles and William? I'm pretty sure it was the latter.
Anyway, if you doubt the lengths the political and corporate elite will go to to influence public opinion and bend it to their will, then go have a read of Manufacturing Consent by Chomsky. It's been 20 odd years since I read it but it's the main reason I don't believe anything I see in the media. Or is Chomsky a tin-foil hatted nuttter too?
In the case of that interview what’s more likely?
He greatly overestimated how he'd perform in the interview. And how it would be received. Hubris. There's another thread for this side track. Join in there.
@dyna-ti
you still haven't answered about your support for the Syrian government using chemical weapons on civilians. (Actually, you're not allowed to use them on soldiers either, just in case you didn't realize that.) And, if you're worried press freedoms, Syria and Russia are places where journalists who criticize the government are pretty much guaranteed either jail or a horrible death. Please explain how you think those government offer anything to admire.
How unbiased is that ?
I know some of those academics, and their work is not unbiased. I doubt they'd even want to suggest that it is, and even if agree with some of things that they've written in the past (I'm only briefly familiar with Sara Flounders from appearances on PBS Newshour). That was pretty much an echo chamber with all 4 of them agreeing with each other's perspective and insights - I think at one point one of them even starts a sentence with "I'd think you'd agree that..." to one of the other guests. I know that at least two of those academics are (by their own admission) reasonably "anti" the US foreign policies. That's not in it-self a bad thing, but it does at least support the theory that you can at least find US voices critical of US policies.
There's a reason they've been chosen/asked to go a programme aired by RT though, you' agree with that at least?
Sorry Kelvin old chap, these small snippets without any reference are confusing. Can you fill in some more detail.
Because from what you've posted it looks like your answer belongs in the Prince Andrew thread.
PS. Im only guilty of Hubris when i know im right 😉
There’s a reason they’ve been chosen/asked to go a program aired by RT though, you’ agree with that at least?
Yeah, i watched it today on freeview. you know, that mainstream tv stuff.
Should i have went to the BBC, or maybe skynews. Sure i'd hear a difference of opinion there wouldn't I.
(Not a rhetorical question 😉 )
’s very easy to accuse anyone you disagree with of being a bit mad.
Yeah, but also very easy to cast baseless aspersions at something you disagree with on the basis of some deep and unprovable conspiracy. It's all a bit QAnon etc.
I don't want to side track so will be brief. But whoever thought letting Andrew do that interview was a good idea made a huge mistake. It damaged him and the monarchy immediately, for no benefit. That's why I don't think that it being 'approved' as part of some deliberate, sinister attempt to protect the monarchy / establishment is credible, let alone provable.
I know some of those academics, and their work is not unbiased.
No academic is unbiased, but some are reasonably honest about their views. Having biases is human and isn't a problem if universities hire people with a range of viewpoints and let them engage in constructive debate. The problem is that smart people are even more susceptible to group-think than less-smart people so universities and think tanks turn into echo chambers. This affects both right-wing and left-wing viewpoints, what you get is people flocking together with like-minded people without realizing they're creating a bubble. The idea that having a Ph.D. or academic post makes someone unbiased is something that you would only believe if you'd never actually met an academic.
"Have you asked any ?. Have to looked at any media doing ‘man on the street interviews ?’"
I'd be a bit more trusting of the vote from a free and fair election that I would the random musings from a man (or woman/other) on the street.
It's that thing about democracy being the sum of the will of the people, not the will of an individual, wether stood on the street or sat at the head of a very long table in the Kremlin.
Wow, this is the most serious threat to peace in Europe in decades, and we've degenerated into playground name calling?
Have a word with yourselves
you still haven’t answered about your support for the Syrian government using chemical weapons on civilians.
Oh Syria is it now Thols.I thought we were discussing the Russia/Nato/Ukrainian thing.
Oh do try to stay on topic 🙄
Oh do try to stay on topic
You're the guy that posted on a thread about Ukraine that you admired what Russia and the Syrian government did. Now that you're asked about your support for mass-murder of civilians using chemical weapons, you suddenly decide it's not relevant. Come on, that's pathetic.
Here's the thing, if you think the Syrian or Russian Presidents have any qualities to admire, you cannot claim to support things like freedom of the press. Those two guys are a couple of the worst offenders. But you don't really seem to care as long as you can complain about how liberal democracies don't always live up to their ideals.
Let's get back on track.
As has been discussed, we know that Russia wants a buffer zone between itself and NATO. The reasons for this go further than the experiences of Russians in several invasions throughout history, Russia is trying to challenge the order in Europe and no doubt if Russia can get away with forcing regime change in Ukraine without a concerted international response then China is likely to be keenly following events for obvious reasons.
I should also point out that Russian agents were responsible for a chemical weapons attack on British soil in 2018 that had ramifications that went beyond solely targeting Sergei Skripal. As of 2019, Russia had been suspected of being involved in fourteen "suspicious" deaths in the UK..
As has been discussed, we know that Russia wants a buffer zone between itself and NATO.
Is that an unreasonable ambition? It would seem an eminently sensible idea to me but what do I know?
Is that an unreasonable ambition? It would seem an eminently sensible idea to me but what do I know?
Only sensible if you're the state that wants a buffer. It's a bit shit on the country that forms the buffer as they lose sovereignty and become nothing more than a battlefield.
So honestly, not a fair or equitable ambition. Someone is losing their state.
we know that Russia wants a buffer zone between itself and NATO.
I would categorize it as Putin, and his supporting cast of billionaire oligarchs fear that the population of Russia will be lass favourable to them if they are able to watch countries on their own borders transition from ex-soviet satellites to more democratic countries - as can be seen from the examples of; Unified Germany Poland, Czechoslovakia, Romania Hungary, Bulgaria, Estonia Latvia, and Lithuania and also from the examples and experience of the ones that remain in that sphere of influence. Belarus, Georgia, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan etc.
I think that Putin would like most if not all those first group to be very much like the second group.
Is that an unreasonable ambition? It would seem an eminently sensible idea to me but what do I know?
The citizens of Poland, Ukraine, Belarus, etc all have some say in that matter too and might not want to be under the sphere of influence of a rogue state, the type of country that sanctions the killing of British citizens on our own soil.
The citizens of Poland, Ukraine, Belarus, etc all have some say in that matter too
But did they. Or was it all at a governmental level, and the people weren't consulted in the slightest. Much like the Ukrainians and the other former Soviet countries. I cant remember hearing of any referendums.
Ok. I got a mod warning for the colouring book comment, so i apologize if that was a bit strong. Though i also feel being called names is also quite insulting so i hope those individuals did too.
As such, and before i lose it with anyone I'll let you continue arguing amongst yourselves. I've other fish to fry.
Bye ladies. Hope you sort out your differences and maybe allow others to have their say or opinion without being insulted for it.
Is that an unreasonable ambition?
Depends entirely on how you go about influencing those countries doesn't it? It seems to me that lining up a good percentage of your armed forces along the border of a country you already said you think should be a part of Russia, and bits of which you invaded in 2014 breaking a treaty you signed with that country could be interpreted badly by that country?
What do I know, eh?
we know that Russia wants a buffer zone between itself and NATO.
That's the problem. Putin sees Ukraine as a buffer zone without any right of self-determination. Ukraine sees itself as a sovereign country with the right to join whatever international organizations it chooses. When Ukraine tried to exercise its sovereignty, Russia invaded Crimea and eastern Ukraine. This is about the sovereignty of Ukraine, Russia refuses to acknowledge that. Hard to see any validity in Russia's viewpoint on that issue.
i hope those individuals did too.
Nope, I think you're the only one. Maybe you need to think about your behavior.
But did they. Or was it all at a governmental level, and the people weren’t consulted in the slightest.
A cursory read of recent Ukrainian political history should help answer that for you - 2004 saw the the EU friendly recently elected president of Ukraine Viktor Yushchenko mysteriously fall sick with dioxin poisoning. Moreover the the Euromaiden protests of 2013/14 over Viktor Yanukovych's refusal to sign a trade treaty with the EU led to the latter's ousting and his subsequent exile in Russia.
I at no point said I admired what happened in Syria or Russia, or anywhere for that matter. So please go back and give me a direct quote where i have said such,
Here you go. Apparently bombing civilians with chemical weapons is the hallmark of effective leaders. All those poor Syrian children gasping for their last breaths as they drowned on their own blood just didn't appreciate that they should have been grateful for the big win. Honestly dude, your admiration for murderous tyrants is pathetic.
dyna-ti
Free Member
authoritarian oligarch despot that he isNot ever being one to stir the pot…ahem.
Who do we have to confirm such a charge ? The British government, the US state department, the tabloids both US and UK.
It’s pretty much the same rhetoric placed against every country’s leader we dont like.
Sure we could point out that they assassinate people, but so does Israel, and we know for a fact the US does too.
Putin appears too be a far more capable leader than either Biden or Johnson, and in Russian culture it is all about strength, which for a country of that size you’re pretty much going to need.
Oligarchs formed under Gorbachev and continued under Yeltsin, and until Putin came on the scene paid little to no tax(sound familiar 😆 ) Putin made them pay, he also did a lot for the Russian economy, increased their GDP, raised living standards, and cut poverty figures in half.
Meanwhile under the Tory party here in the UK poverty has increased exponentially.
dyna-ti
Free Member
I’ve expanded on that Binners. Russia won the war against the gradual destruction of Syria are the behest of US funded terrorist groups. Without Russian intervention Syria would be the wasteland the US wanted.in a few short years Russia took back what was lost.
It may be continuing, but nothing like before and Syria has a chance to recover and finally win.
As has been discussed, we know that Russia wants aRussian controlled buffer zone between itself and NATO
FIFY
Don’t feed the troll 🤷♂️
Again this is your take on it. Being an observer to the events to you is simply not a matter of being an observer, but one who must have a positive opinion and agree with the situation. I suspect you thik like this because thats how you would look at any situation.
But we could also say that your lack of condemnation to the events of the past 20 odd years mean you agree with the actions taken by the western powers.
Iraq, Syria,Afghanistan and Libya. I should think given your outlook on these matters and clear lack of condemnation that you agree and admire their actions.
That sound fair.That you admire the western powers that killed some million and a half civilians. Clearly if my observation of the actions taken by Russia in Syria, is admiration for them, then you admire the actions of the western leadership and what they did.
I said as this is a thread on Ukraine, that I accept the reasons that Russia is concerned about its security, and from the off you say im not condemning it but are infact agreeing with those actions taken by Russia, and furthermore went on to accuse me of siding with them.
You've then across the entire thread cherry picked every action Russia has been involved in seeking my opinion of it, and anything i say you happily twist seeking to be argumentative.
this is about Russia,NATO and the Ukraine. Not about me. But possibly you feel if you can demonize me, then that means Russia is wrong, as nobody in your view should challenge the narrative being offered.
You also denies that the history of the United States and all the wars they have started, all the dictators they have trained and installed, the corruption they have funded happened at all.
Every turn, we have to look to the past to learn from history. And history has shown us A. America is an imperial military regime, bent on world domination, and B. Are using NATO to cement their power in Europe or anywhere else they want to scare.
Even western media is now accepting NATO has been aggressively expanding eastward. But you Thols are screaming thats not true and only you know the true nature of things. Honestly thols, i was right in my assessment that you are utterly obsessed with this crisis to the point it is clouding your mind and closing it off.. Dahz was also correct in his assessment. Though maybe not as accusatory as myself, but still facing derision and insults from yourself.
Counter questions, the straw man argument being use by yourself, but ever directed against someone who refuses to blindly accept your position.
No other media is available for you to watch, because you instantly dismiss it as Russian propaganda. These peoples voices, their clearly to your point of view, lies, working for the Russia government.
I'll bet you didnt even view the cross talk link, and the reason was only because it was on Rt. But i feel were it on a sit of its own, you would still dismiss it.
America has nuclear weapons in Europe under their control.
I remember one of the US generals was asked if he felt it would ever be warranted to use their nuclear arsenal against Europe. He refused to answer.
You have strongly denied that Russia actions are justified by Russia, when clearly that is Russia observation of their own security that they feel that is at stake. You are clearly denying they have reason to be concerned so much so it is unfathomable to say how you would know more about their concerns than Russia itself.
I feel sorry for you thols, really i do.
You expressed admiration for what Russia and the Syrian government did in Syria, you called it a "win". Then you denied that you admired them. Now you're throwing out rationalizations. You're an admirer of and apologist for murderous tyrants. Pathetic.
Don’t feed the troll 🤷♂️
In this instance the troll will just keep posting with the objective of distraction, obstruction and confusion.
Anything but discuss the aggressive Russian moves to intimidate their neighbors into submission, or depending on how you think this will go, use violence to force them.
I’d actually prefer Thols kept posting as a counter to deliberate attempts to muddy discussion about Russian intervention in Ukraine.
rationalizations
Somebody has to be rational here, Im autistic, rational is something I do. I have no dog in this. I feel nothing for anyone. I observe and report. But im then fighting against the likes of your interpretation of how i must therefore feel on any given situation, and no matter what rational i use to describe, or to show throughout that there's two sides to every story, im constantly met with a single sided opinion.
This is why you keep chopping and changing. whats my opinion of Syria, whats my opinion of this action or that action, but clearly ignoring any of the circumstances surrounding any of those actions.
I know i am guilty of deriving a little sarcastic pleasure froom constantly countering , but were you to accept both sides, that wouldn't be necessary.
'Win'. this is an assumption thols. You are assuming because ive used the word 'win' my emotions are positive. What else are we suppose to call it. A success ??m that would instantly imply positivity for the action, but 'win' is emotionally neutral.
Can you see now how your mind is biased 😕 you only see and believe what you want to see and believe.
Tell me I'm not the only one that's noticed the thread has now become a metaphor* for the standoff on Ukraine's borders? Not exact and done in miniature obviously but it's there.
*Or simile, I can never remember.
Perhaps there also needs to be de-escalation within the thread. Hell, if that can't even be attained on a niche biking forum we are well and truly buggered out there in the real world.
"Winning the argument" is a bit destructive on here and between countries it seems to me.
(Love you all, you argumentative sods.)
dyna-ti, let's call it a truce. Here's a peace offering for you:
Can we please, please possibly stay on topic and remain objective?
Sure thing.
Can we please, please possibly stay on topic and remain objective?
Troll of the century 😆
Can we please, please possibly stay on topic and remain objective?
Ok, if we have to.
https://twitter.com/phildstewart/status/1494644936477708357
Mass evacuation from the occupied region into Russia has been announced. Just trying to find an English speaking source…
Troll of the century
No man, just no.
Apparently, it's all just a game. Just not to the people in Ukraine.
https://twitter.com/natsechobbyist/status/1494490239586471936
From the Guardian
The head of the Russia-backed separatist states in Ukraine has announced a mass evacuation of citizens in what may be part of a plan to trigger a Russian intervention in Ukraine.
Denis Pushilin, the head of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic, announced that he believed Ukraine was planning to attack the separatist state and said he would begin a mass evacuation of its citizens to Russia on Friday. The Luhansk People’s Republic, another Russian-backed separatist state, announced similar plans.
There is no indication that Ukraine is planning an offensive operation in southeast Ukraine, where the front lines of the conflict have remained static for nearly seven years. Russia has also moved an estimated 150,000 troops to the border area and appears to be seeking a pretext for which to launch an intervention.
Nonetheless, Pushilin said that he believed that Ukrainian president, Volodymyr Zelensky was planning to launch an offensive and that the army would shell cities and towns in the Russian-backed separatist areas of southeast Ukraine.
In a video statement, Pushilin said he was organising a “mass, centralised departure of the population to the Russian Federation, adding that “women, children and elderly people are subject to evacuation first”.
He also claimed that he had agreed with the Russian leadership to prepare sheltering points for the population in the Rostov region of southwest Russia. The buy-in from the Russian authorities for what would be a difficult logistical operation to move hundreds of thousands of people could indicate that this is a serious development.
Ukraine immediately denied Pushilin’s claims, as well as others in Russian-backed media that claimed the Ukrainian army was targeting a chemical facility.
“We categorically refute Russian disinformation reports on Ukraine’s alleged offensive operations or acts of sabotage in chemical production facilities,” said Dmytro Kuleba, Ukraine’s foreign minister. “Ukraine does not conduct or plan any such actions in the Donbas. We are fully committed to diplomatic conflict resolution only.”
There has been a flareup in fighting along the frontlines of the conflict this week. The Ukrainian army has said that shells fired from separatist-held territory had hit a kindergarten on Thursday, injuring several adults.
At a press conference in Moscow on Friday afternoon, Vladimir Putin said that he was witnessing an “aggravation of the situation in the Donbas”.
Asked about the evacuation plan, Kremlin spokesman Dmitri Peskov told journalists that he “didn’t know what was going on there with Pushilin”, the Interfax news agency reported.
As he's the installed leader, its likely its part of a false flag implication to keep the US on its toes and nothing will happen.
We can hope rather nothing will happen i should say
I wonder if a nice storm across Western Europe means no drones/overflying so fewer eyes watching...?
US satellites are always watching.
Watching the Russian, watching the Chinese...
Watching us 😉
dyna-ti
Free Member
US satellites are always watching.Watching the Russian, watching the Chinese…
Watching us 😉
Take some advice from yourself and stay on topic.
dyna-ti
Free Member
I thought we were discussing the Russia/Nato/Ukrainian thing.Oh do try to stay on topic 🙄
It you two could stop making this a little cat fight between yourselves that would be appreciated. Thanks.
It you two could stop making this a little cat fight between yourselves that would be appreciated. Thanks.
Fair enough, let's stay on topic about Ukraine.
https://twitter.com/AricToler/status/1494687745964449801
John Pilger (@johnpilger) Tweeted: Remember Colin Powell lying at the UN that Iraq had WDM? Remember the baby incubators lie, and the Benghazi massacre lie, and the Gulf of Tonkin lie? Cue US Secretary of State Blinken accusing Russia of targeting a nursery. No evidence, of course.
https://t.co/x59d2W2Cu7 https://twitter.com/johnpilger/status/1494682976608731143?s=20&t=M3Y_xNazMrvWWwNZT3H5UA
^^ Worth clarifying.
You mean it was hit but is not confirmed as deliberately targeted?
Also John Pilger;
In an interview on RT: "This is a carefully constructed drama as part of the propaganda campaign that has been building now for several years in order to justify the actions of NATO, Britain and the United States, towards Russia. That’s a fact"
EDIT: I generally admire John Pilger he's done some remarkable work, I'm just pointing out that he's not free from saying daft things, or conflating events for effect
Oh dear - what a pillock!
Read that quote again, it’s idiotic 🤷♂️
Is it just me or does the Russian disinformation campaign have a whole "doing your course work on the last day of term" vibe about it nowadays. It's like they can't even be bothered anymore
I mean, wanting folks to believe that the Ukrainians would wait until a good percentage of the Russian land forces are ranged along the border and then launching an artillery strike of the Donetsk region...Really?
I mean, wanting folks to believe that the Ukrainians would wait until a good percentage of the Russian land forces are ranged along the border and then launching an artillery strike of the Donetsk region…Really?
Ha. I opened the thread to post just this. I suppose it could be a double bluff by the evil imperialist west, or at least that’s what John Pilger might say next…
I think Putin et al have realised they don’t need to put in that much effort anymore. There are plenty in the “west” that are so determined to disbelieve anything the US/EU say about it that they’re just doing Putin’s work for him. A few of them are posting in this thread.
So tedious DD.
The people on this thread who think the UK & US are white knights who've never done a thing wrong are naive in the extreme.
We've been lied to so many times by our and the US's intelligence services/ politicians about wars and foreign policy - forgive me for being sceptical.
The people on this thread who think the UK & US are white knights who’ve never done a thing wrong are naive in the extreme.
I don't think you'd find one person on this thread who thinks that TBH, but we're not naive enough to believe anything that Putin's mob say either.
LOL nick thats a hilarious post for many reasons
The people on this thread who think the UK & US are white knights who’ve never done a thing wrong are naive in the extreme.
Plenty of wrongs done by the U.K. and US.
None of which is an excuse for Russias repeated military action in Ukraine including the current round of intimidation that may also lead to invasion.
Best to think of it this way ctk.
I could go up to London and hold up a placard behind a reporter on live TV saying for instance, "BLAME BORIS/BIDEN FOR UKRAINE NOT PUTIN!!" and get away with it. If near No.10 I can imagine being, potentially, told to move along or such but that's about it.
Would I want to be standing anywhere in Moscow subverting a live broadcast (or no broadcast at all...) with a sign saying "BLAME PUTIN NOT BIDEN/ JOHNSON!!"?
Bloody hell no. No I would not. I'd not be expecting to see my family anytime soon, perhaps ever.
Its a non to subtle difference and a very important one.
So tedious DD.
Yet you took the time to read, digest and reply.
The problem with Russia’s disinformation war is that the efforts have indeed, as nickc points out, become so amateurish.
It’s worth checking out the thread I’ve linked below. This is from one of the Bellingcat guys who’s analysing all the visual cues from the propaganda war being waged by the LDR/NDR bots and finding that a lot of the videos and photos are just bullshit. Many, supposedly from different areas at different times recorded at identical times/locations. I mean, come on, they’ve chosen SM sites where anybody can view the metadata from all the bullshit photos and videos. Are you saying you really believe this stuff?
These are the guys who just used open source photos and video to show that MH17 was taken down with Russian weaponry supplied to pro-Russian forces in the occupied areas of east Ukraine. A few years back now - I’d go and check out what Pilger thought back then, but I wouldn’t know where to look. Frankly, I don’t really care to be honest.
Have a read through. I’m pretty sure Bellingcat aren’t a wing of US/UK intelligence agencies, but you’ll just have to come to that conclusion by yourself.
https://twitter.com/arictoler/status/1494687745964449801?s=21
Plenty of wrongs done by the U.K. and US.
None of which is an excuse for Russias repeated military action in Ukraine including the current round of intimidation that may also lead to invasion.
But are all these wrongs a reason to not trust the U.K and U.S to do the right thing? Or have honest intentions?
Yet you took the time to read, digest and reply.
Again tedious! Why be a dick?
Are you saying you really believe this stuff?
What am I supposed to be believing?
Not really relevant.
It’s what Russia and Ukraine have done and will do, that is relevant. Ukraine isn’t some fool, they know the west as well as Russia.
The chances of the US invading Ukraine to force its will upon it is basically zero.
What am I supposed to be believing?
I don’t know. Nobody’s telling you to believe anything. What do you believe? I’m saying I don’t necessarily take the evil west’s take on everything, but there are plenty of independent investigators out there analysing open source data to disprove the disinformation put out by Putin’s bot army. We can all go back and find instances of all regimes acting like arseholes and lying about it. I mean, go ahead and keep posting that you don’t trust the US/UK - but to what objective? Why did you post Pilger’s tweet? Just to remind us that Powell etc lied about WMDs? If that’s the case, thanks for the reminder bro, I’d completely forgotten about that. Why do you think Pilger posted it?
WTF are you on about? John Pilger post is self explanatory and his reasons are too.
WTF are you on about?
Your posts. Are there any more lies from the US or U.K. of which you’d like to remind us? Or can you just reference where someone on the thread has implied that the west are full of white knights? Or would you just like to paste another Pilger tweet?
Not just lies but terrible outcomes when they've intervened in countries.
Was my one Pilger tweet too many? Why has it upset you so much? Are contrasting views not allowed? WTF is your problem?
I don’t know. Nobody’s telling you to believe anything. What do you believe? I’m saying I don’t necessarily take the evil west’s take on everything, but there are plenty of independent investigators out there analysing open source data to disprove the disinformation put out by Putin’s bot army. We can all go back and find instances of all regimes acting like arseholes and lying about it. I mean, go ahead and keep posting that you don’t trust the US/UK – but to what objective? Why did you post Pilger’s tweet? Just to remind us that Powell etc lied about WMDs? If that’s the case, thanks for the reminder bro, I’d completely forgotten about that. Why do you think Pilger posted it?
LOL WTF are you on about? You must be drunk- fair enough I'll give you a pass
Why did you post Pilger’s tweet? Just to remind us that Powell etc lied about WMDs?
Well its the little boy who cried wolf isnt it ?. Not just one lie,Which cost thousands their lives, lets not forget or easily cast that aside. Kids burning alive in their bedrooms as the expensive missiles come raining in. Its lie after lie after lie.
And to what end, what is the goal, the end game so to speak 😕
Is it hard to picture or does saying " Thanks for reminding me bro" in a sarcastic tone make it easier to dismiss and put out of your mind and rest in the knowledge you want to remain blissfully unaware of the real cost of perpetual war. The human cost.
Its one thing to claim war is wrong, but another just to dismiss it as the fault of someone else. Usually not that country who started the war in the first place. Is that not just very wrong, or a cop out, or something much much worse.
.
The term 'Fake news' was coined in the US, and by people who were intelligent enough to see much of the rhetoric were lies upon lies. The US public now doesn't now know who to believe, on any subject, because they have been fed falsehoods for decades.
The US latest budget for the military is $850 billion. Is there that much war going on, is the US under that great a threat to justify destroying most of its social structure to perpetrate wars and conflicts to keep themselves safe. I believe the entire cost in pounds to the UK for the whole of the 2nd world war adjusted to inflation was £200 billion. less than a quarter of the US's current budget.
$850 to the detriment of social security, of health centers, or any sort of help. The cost of living, the cost of heating, no money in the pocket of the people, but plenty for bombs to drop on agricultural workers.
Are they so at risk. are they under constant threat of annihilation ?.
or is it that there is another reason. Just ask yourself what could that reason possibly be. And please dont ask for my opinion on it. you already know my opinion on it,, but use your own intelligence to decipher the truth, no matter how disturbing that turns out to be.
Then maybe, just maybe we can move forward and history will not keep repeating itself.
Oh hello. Again.
ctk
Full Member
Not just lies but terrible outcomes when they’ve intervened in countries.
dyna-ti
Free Member
I thought we were discussing the Russia/Nato/Ukrainian thing.Oh do try to stay on topic 🙄
This about Ukraine being invaded by Russia. They have asked for assistance from NATO. NATO has not invaded Ukraine and has no plans to.
Having clarified that, what is it about Putin that you guys admire so much?
You're being evasive again thols. Question dodging.
If you aren't realizing it ,heres the definition and some examples.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evasion_(ethics)#Question_dodging
We're seeing some interesting idioms in this thread.
…idioms…
I could replace a letter.
Haven't there been enough warnings on this thread Darcy about being offensive and insulting.
We’re seeing some interesting idioms in this thread.
Your guess is as good as mine, but we can always cross that bridge when we come to it, hang on in there, and it's better late than never to get your act together, get something out of your system, and give someone the benefit of the doubt, or we may well have to go back to the drawing board.
After all, it's not rocket science.
dyna-ti
Free Member
Haven’t there been enough warnings on this thread Darcy about being offensive and insulting.
I think you're the only person who got warned for being offensive. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Top of Putin's playlist
It's worth a watch that vid interesting overall analysis, he makes a lot of very valid points, from the view point of 7 years ago and not coloured by today's nonsense. Ignore the header and listen to the content. It's not a pro-Russian vid, just looking at the realties.
Puts the whole argument in its place in a wider Geo-political sense, ie USA is more interested in combating China these days than Russia, and NATO (and Europe) will essentially become less and less relevant as time passes, a difficult argument to counter tbh.
Ukraine really shouldn't be putting it's eggs in the NATO basket. Cause there's never going to be a time when it comes to it's rescue here. Ukraine should be thinking how it becomes a bridging nation between Russia and the EU, rather than fancifully thinking NATO or the EU has it's back.
USA is more interested in combating China these days than Russia, and NATO (and Europe) will essentially become less and less relevant as time passes, a difficult argument to counter
“It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future.”
― Yogi Berra
Russia's behaviour is having the opposite effect that it wanted. It's reinforcing to the NATO members how important it is to maintain NATO.
Ukraine should be thinking how it becomes a bridging nation between Russia and the EU, rather than fancifully thinking NATO or the EU has it’s back.
Yes, that's what Ukraine wanted to be. They wanted closer ties with the EU, but Russia rejected that and invaded back in 2014. Ukraine is not a NATO member and there is zero chance of it becoming one anytime soon, that was never an option. The only way that Ukraine can become a bridging nation between the EU and Russia is to persuade Russia to end the ongoing invasion and accept that Ukraine is a sovereign nation.
Ukraine is not the source of the problem, they didn't invade Russia. NATO is not the source of the problem either, they did not invade either Ukraine or Russia, any assistance they are providing to Ukraine is the result of desperate pleas for help from Ukraine. Russia is the problem here, they invaded Ukraine.
Ukraine should be thinking how it becomes a bridging nation between Russia and the EU, rather than fancifully thinking NATO or the EU has it’s back.
That was the deal offered by Russia.
The EU wants Ukraine to deal exclusively with them and offered so much. Russia wanting to stay in control offered a better deal, more money, less costs on gas prices, and were quite happy for the Ukrainians to deal with both them and the EU.
So a one sided deal with the EU, or a 2 sided deal with Russia. It would be in the Ukrainians best interest to deal with both.
Keeping in mind that despite all of this, of everything going on, Russia is still the Ukraine's biggest trading partner.
Much like the US. Ideological differences, and lots of nasty stuff said by the US towards Russia, but every year the United States still buys $18 million worth of oil off the Russians. And its not just oil, its also minerals and precious metals.
EU/US trade is worth an estimated $1/2 trillion each way, some 19% of the US's total GDP. Russia greatest trading partner is the EU. Trade between Russia and the EU is about $175 billion.
Kind of suggests that conflict between Russia and the US has more to do with trade than anything else.
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Future conflicts
The EU receives 40% of its gas from Russia. The UK as a whole gets 40% of its gas from the north sea.
What happens when and if Scotland gains independence and that resource is lost, or England and the remaining constituents(Wales/NI/Exports) are then forced to pay the Scottish for the gas they need.
Do you see England honouring the results of an independence referendum should it go against them ?.
That could well be a question for the future.
Will we see the US siding with England and claiming the Scottish referendum is illegal.