Ukraine

So I just passed the Manchester pro-Ukraine rally and saw what looked like far right flags. Anyone care to explain that? 🤷‍♀️

I don’t think the Russians are performing comically bad either tbh, we’re just not privy to their plans,

Well, they accidentally published their press releases about how they "liberated" Ukraine in three days and were greeted as liberators. That's a good indication of their plans.

The massacres of the Russian paratroopers shows comically bad performance. They were supposed to be the elite of the Russian forces. They rolled up expecting that the Ukrainians would flee in terror but just got destroyed.

This war is not going the way Putin planned and their military is a laughingstock.

https://twitter.com/IAPonomarenko/status/1500144147709272068

Given that the Guardian is quite popular with some contributors to these columns, here’s a useful piece from Lyndsey German:

I don't disagree with the overall message (nor the facts presented) but the delivery isn't going to win anyone over. If you're not part of Stop The War you're a warmonger? It's still NATO to blame and nothing to do with Russian expansionism that pushed eastern countries into the alliance? They seem to be the easy strawman responses.

A shame because it's actually got a lot of good points that, when you exclude the rhetoric, really should be discussed.

So I just passed the Manchester pro-Ukraine rally and saw what looked like far right flags. Anyone care to explain that? 🤷‍♀️

Not a clue, care to explain why any of us should know?

It’s a 2 lane road paved the convoy is on though, not a muddy single track forest road.

With a load of out of fuel or broken down stuff at the front, and anything that goes off the road sinks up to its axles in mud, and will do for another month or so.

Not to mention all the Twiiterverse evidence of truck hubs leaking oil and tyres perishing from lack of preventative maintenance.

This war is not going the way Putin planned and their military is a laughingstock.

I don't know what to think of it all. The Ukrainians are clearly far ahead in the propaganda war, there's loads of video clips of farmers towing away Russian armour, all very humourous.

But I think it's probably extremely dangerous to start believing that the Russian military makes Dad's Army look like the SAS.

Not a clue, care to explain why any of us should know?

I was asking a simple question. No need to get uppity if you don’t know the answer. I’m not making a point, just genuinely confused as to why they’d be there.

Anyhoo, my last comment on the convoy, we are just having a pantomime here.

Oh no we're not!

A shame because it’s actually got a lot of good points that, when you exclude the rhetoric, really should be discussed.

Preferably on a separate thread, but yes, there's some valid arguments that might make some folk think

I’m not making a point, just genuinely confused as to why they’d be there.

Who knows. Anything from they hate the Russians, through they’re funded by the Russians (whether the rank and file know it or not) and have been asked to turn out to discredit the rally, to they’ve turned up looking for an opportunity for a fight.

It would probably confuse them no end that the Taliban have issued a statement asking for a peaceful solution.

I was asking a simple question. No need to get uppity if you don’t know the answer. I’m not making a point, just genuinely confused as to why they’d be there.

Sorry, I thought you were making some sort of point.

No idea TBH, not like both sides don't have their Ultras. Maybe they're supporting the national guard battalion that was being discussed. Wonder how many will be signing up for the foreign legion?

Preferably on a separate thread, but yes, there’s some valid arguments that might make some folk think

Agreed.

thols2
Free Member

This war is not going the way Putin planned and their military is a laughingstock.

I've no idea what Putin's war aims are. So dunno.

Have the Russians performed comically bad or true to form? Or is it that those two things aren't mutually exclusive for the Russians?

The 3 day plan makes sense but then Ukraine got their hands on some Russian invasion plans 3 years back that outlined a two week campaign.

Could it be that the northern convoy was an occupation force, ready to move in after the Ukranian government had been eliminated but seeing as plan A failed, they've been told to sit there and wait, whilst the invasion proceeds from the South?

Crimea is an arms and fuel dump, the majority of the strategically valuable objectives are in the South and now in Putin's hands. Perhaps he wants to destroy the rest of the country in the next week leaving Kyiv till last?

But I think it’s probably extremely dangerous to start believing that the Russian military makes Dad’s Army look like the SAS.

I just caught the end of piece on the BBC News channel last night looking at some of the weapons systems Russia could use in Ukraine. They were discussing something that looked looked like a massive battleship gun mounted on a truck (codenamed "The Tool" by the Russian army apparently). In addition to conventional shells (designed to take out buildings in a single shot from as far away as 45km) it can also fire nuclear shells (apparently Russia has a number of tactical battlefield nuclear weapons).

Even assuming that they're just going to use the conventional shells it could get pretty hellish and I'm worried what Russia rolls out next.

PJay
Free Member

Even assuming that they’re just going to use the conventional shells it could get pretty hellish and I’m worried what Russia rolls out next.

Yeah, I've no doubt Russia could ramp up the attrition 10 fold tbh.

I’ve no idea what Putin’s war aims are.

Apparently his troops on the ground didn't know either. They were sent out on "exercises", then sent into Ukraine with 3 day's supplies, then surprised that Ukrainians started shooting at them. If the Russians don't know what their plan was, it's quite excusable that you don't either.

thols2
Free Member

Apparently his troops on the ground didn’t know either. They were sent out on “exercises”, then sent into Ukraine with 3 day’s supplies, then surprised that Ukrainians started shooting at them. If the Russians don’t know what their plan was, it’s quite excusable that you don’t either.

How come you seem to be so sure?

The massacres of the Russian paratroopers shows comically bad performance.

I think comical is a bad choice of word. You may not agree with why they were there, but they are still human beings sent to their deaths by Putin and there's nothing funny about that.

I wouldn't be surprised that there was a leak about the parachute regiment mission and the defenders managed to assemble an overwhelming force to meet them? Not necessarily comic...

Have the Russians performed comically bad or true to form? Or is it that those two things aren’t mutually exclusive for the Russians?

For perspective it took the US three weeks to reach Baghdad, so far it's only been ten days

So A few thousand troops agreed aye lets go to war with a half tank of fuel? hmmm…

But we are fairly confident that most Russians don't give a shit about the war -why would they? In that situation wouldn't you engineer a reason to not have to fight or to just walk away?

That could explain why there are so many intelligence leaks too.

"For perspective it took the US three weeks to reach Baghdad, so far it’s only been ten days"

Yep. Another perspective is looking at the map with all the red bits denoting where the invading forces are.

It looks like a claw. A big red claw.

I’ve no idea what Putin’s war aims are.

Apparently his troops on the ground didn’t know either. They were sent out on “exercises”, then sent into Ukraine with 3 day’s supplies, then surprised that Ukrainians started shooting at them. If the Russians don’t know what their plan was, it’s quite excusable that you don’t either.

Putin's aims have always been for nobody to know what's true.

MM ran an international business consortium. Who do you think the business partners were?

Everyone! Everyone has a share!

molgrips
Full Member

But we are fairly confident that most Russians don’t give a shit about the war -why would they?

Can we? We are seeing a one sided view of this war, a heavily pro Ukrainian view point tbh. Quite rightly so, but there's propaganda on all fronts. If the Russian military was as against this as we are told they would have crumbled already. Instead they are making slow and steady progress. Slow? yes. But it's looking methodical to me.

It might have taken coalition forces 4 weeks to take Baghdad but they lost around 200 people in that time/operation.

Russia seem to be doing this differently.

mangoman
Free Member
It might have taken coalition forces 4 weeks to take Baghdad but they lost around 200 people in that time/operation.

Bagdad wasn't getting supplies from Europe and the US though.

Don’t worry everyone. Instagram Liz is on the case and she will defeat Putin with Emoji’s while staring vacantly into the middle distance in an aircraft hanger

https://twitter.com/trussliz/status/1499788533166481412?s=21

Slow? yes. But it’s looking methodical to me.

I agree. Slow. Bloody. Lethal. But progress.
And let us remember - it is an information war. We only see the few calm, apologetic and confused prisoners. We're not seeing those who are angry or still fighting.
We're seeing overwhelming Ukranian information, or the extreme propoganda that Putin is controlling. We're not party to the Russian generals plans and discussion.
Perhaps another couple of weeks in we can start making more sense of things, but as it stands we are 10 short days in.
And while we pontificate, people die. 🙁

Unfortunately Ukraine is lost, best situation at the moment is for minimum loss of life.

Putin is that deep failures not an option.

We need to calm the nuclear rhetoric down and hope putin with this final victory buggers off somewhere preference is dead but...

In thw current situation I find Liz Truss posts far too close to poking the bear than im comfortable with.

The Northern convoy ain’t moving, if it was Generals wouldn’t be getting shot by sniper fire near the front trying to find out WTF’s going on…

In thw current situation I find Liz Truss posts far too close to poking the bear than im comfortable with.

Given the Russians reaction to her previous remarks, I think we would all benefit from a lot less Liz. But there are photographers to be kept busy and her ongoing leadership campaign to be run, so we’re all going to have to put up with a lot more of this sort of thing, by the looks of it

Something to look forward too, eh?

Pasting fail

"Russia seem to be doing this differently."

Differently to us? Yes. Differently to the way they've always done things? Not so much.

I fear the poster above who says Ukraine is lost it right. I felt that half the country would be lost, I'm now not so optimistic. As I said before, when I look at the map and the claw like form of the Russian positions I can't see Putin letting go.

Let's not forget that Putin plays War by his own rules, not following convention and generally being unpredictable. That convoy could well be sitting there on purpose, for what reason I don't know but it seems to obvious to just blame it on breakdowns.

In thw current situation I find Liz Truss posts far too close to poking the bear than im comfortable with.

That Liz Truss tweet looks more like she's been left standing in the foyer after everyone else has given her the slip so that they can get the real business done. That look is one of someone who has just spotted their 'friends' already in another bar/room getting in with things.

Are we being taken seriously on the World Stage currently? What with Johnson dithering over sanctions and just being, well, himself are we being left out of stuff so that we don't cock it up?

Are we being taken seriously on the World Stage currently?

Post-Brexit, we are an utter and complete irrelevance.

All we are to the rest of the world is Russia’s financial Laundromat

Unfortunately Ukraine is lost,

I work with a number of Ukrainians. They are very determined people, and slightly terrifying. I would not want to get on the wrong side of them.

I think Putin is in trouble and he probably knows by know that time is against him

Does anyone else think Liz Truss reminds them of Gillian McKeith?

Is Putin the richest man in the world?

I'm going to say...the chances are pretty high!

Unfortunately Ukraine is lost, best situation at the moment is for minimum loss of life.

Unless Putin does something really stupid, I think that this is the unfortunate truth. He will take what he wants- the West has broadly reached the limit of it's willingness to intervene.

I'm sure that even as I write this there're analysts, public and private sector, working on how best to roll back sanctions, return confiscated property and re-integrate Russia into the World Economy, while apologising for the inconvenience caused.

Post-Brexit, we are an utter and complete irrelevance

Sorry but this is bollocks, we are still one of the biggest economies in the world and have one of the bigger armies in nato.
I suspect the main thing is that the rest of the world think our leaders are dickheads (and wouldn't be wrong) but we still have an economic and military value.

Kryton57
Full Member
In thw current situation I find Liz Truss posts far too close to poking the bear than im comfortable with.

As binners said, she isn't fighting Putin, she's fighting a leadership contest.

If a few tactical nukes have to fly to aid that, so be it.😉

Mind you, in that pic there are a lot of EU flags on show, she could be an enemy of the people before too long.

And... back on to the topic at hand.

Sorry but this is bollocks, we are still one of the biggest economies in the world and have one of the bigger armies in nato.
I suspect the main thing is that the rest of the world think our leaders are dickheads (and wouldn’t be wrong) but we still have an economic and military value.

UK at the moment is very much being forced to follow what the EU has taken the lead on. Having taken ourselves out of the club, we're sitting at the window staring in trying to be part of the proceedings and failing miserably. UK is desperate to be "part of the club" while also trying its best to do the minimum possible - the Tories (and London) are neck deep in dirty Russian cash.

Only have to look at the Liz Truss image to see how little clue she had about WTF she was actually doing there and who the other people were.

I think that the Russian foreign ministry spokeswoman that singled out the “sanctions hysteria” in London and that Russia would not forget it tells you quite a lot about how important the UK has been to Russian corruption over the years

Be prepared for grain wars next year as we'll see nowt from Ukraine.

The reason I think it's lost is putin can't be seen to loose face.

So unless he pops his evil little clogs it's gone.

I'm not saying he'll keep it or it'll be easy for him but he'll take Kiev. At that point diplomacy and diplomatic talks might help but for now we need to sadly and I mean this really for the greater good is to cool the situation and the only way it will cool is the fall of Ukraine.

It's 100% not what u want before someone brands me a ruskie sympathiser. It's just what do you do.

I also think natos ****ed it and we'd not even back Poland if he rolled in! Nukes have changed everything. There won't be a world war it'll go from zero to boom too quickly.

I hope China, ****stan India etc who trade with Russia can influence and dampen down any future acquisition dreams he may have.....

@crazy-legs
Completely agree with all you said, but that is more a measure of our particularly (cough cough) skilled politicians who clearly can't organise a party properly so how they could lead us through what is going on, when their paymasters are in the hook, is too much to expect.
Doesn't make us an irrelevance though. I think the rest of the western leaders just wish we had some competent politicians in charge

Anyone want to hazard a guess as to what's going on here....?

https://twitter.com/cryptotremble/status/1500136925969195010?s=20&t=JvgGl-yITjzCdFasqyFTEA

Looks like the cast of Top Gear have been to a garden centre whilst on one of their wacky trips.

A^^Making it harder to hit the engine block/ cover the rad to make it warm up quicker? Definitely an attempt to protect the driver on the one of the right.

That doesn't explain the huge radiator stuck on the one of the left though!

Anyone want to hazard a guess as to what’s going on here….?

If I had to guess I'd say that Ukrainians have been shooting out radiators. Surely they can't be un-shielded on those trucks? Are the trucks completely un-armoured and therefore only designed for supply behind your own lines? If so, more evidence of incompetence..?

If this is is, or isn’t the end of the world as we know it, and i don’t feel fine btw, what are we meant to do to make the most of what’s left? Or doesn’t it matter as we won’t know anyway?

I bury my head in the sand hopeful that mostly it’ll be fine, but every now and then I wonder about what me and the family should be doing and talking about 🙁

Not bad effort at improvised up-armour for some protection from small-arms; the troops are trying their best to adapt to the environment and threat they are facing.

It's also a really good example of where there are glaring gaps in their ORBAT, I guess within their budget they have prioritised combat vehicles over logistics.

This is a western example of logistics protection.
[url= https://i.ibb.co/8n38QmX/A-British-Army-HX77-8x8-EPLS-with-Project-Fortress-protection-upgrade.jp g" target="_blank">https://i.ibb.co/8n38QmX/A-British-Army-HX77-8x8-EPLS-with-Project-Fortress-protection-upgrade.jp g"/> [/img][/url]

Anyone want to hazard a guess as to what’s going on here….?

 

@ Pieface

Its like NASA saying a huge asteroid might hit, extinction level stuff... Carry on living and hope for the best. I'm also very upbeat about the outcome when I chat to my son who's a new father. No point being negative.

Just too large to worry about, thats my take.

Of it all goes south I'll probably go the route the populace was offered in Australia in On The Beach... after a few days of living the Mad Max dream in shitty weather of course...

There is no armor on support trucks sniper fire on engine blocks was used in the afgan war to stop tanker bombs and car bombs.
The insurgents welded up the trucks logs are the next best thing

That, with respect is nonsense.

There is no armor on support trucks sniper fire on engine blocks was used in the afgan war to stop tanker bombs and car bombs.
The insurgents welded up the trucks logs are the next best thing

 

The logs are used to try and drive through soft mud/terrain. Take enough with you and you don't have to go back and cut down some trees when your truck is bogged down in open ground.

A^^Making it harder to hit the engine block/ cover the rad to make it warm up quicker?

Wouldn't a blanket have the same effect?

Surely great if a molotov hits it. More fuel to the fire.

Truck in the middle appears to have a fence panel strapped to the front. Can't see that being much help stopping a truck of that size getting bogged.

True, but the wood might also buy you a little time to get out? I guess they have four distinct threats they need to try and mitigate against: AT/RPG, Small Arms, Molotov, and Javelin. Given the circumstance and lack of kit, not a bad effort, although ripping some doors off destroyed APCs might also afford them a little more protection from the first three. Javelin you've got no hope.

Surely great if a molotov hits it. More fuel to the fire.

 

Anti small arms fire, anti grenade or rpg round.
Will help a little, tyres still vulnerable though.
Whats the payload though. Looks like a clamshell design with bolted down access hatches.
Might be something daft but essential like a naafi wagon

"Are we being taken seriously on the World Stage currently?"

A picture of Condoleezza Rice talking with Vladimir Putin popped up on my partners' computer just now.

She said, "look at the contrast between her, the image of charm and professionalism and that Liz Truss." In the photo Putin and Rice's eye's were fixed on each other and they were both smiling. "look at the connection they have", she said.

I explained it was probably because they were both speaking Russian.

They're pontoon-bridge sections. PMP-M to be more specific.
[url= https://i.ibb.co/bHS9qPw/PM-M71.jp g" target="_blank">https://i.ibb.co/bHS9qPw/PM-M71.jp g"/> [/img][/url]

Whats the payload though. Looks like a clamshell design with bolted down access hatches.
Might be something daft but essential like a naafi wagon

 

Squirrel 'We at Stop the War condemn the invasion of Ukraine, and warmongers on all sides'. I seriously wouldn't recommend varifocals online.

Whats the payload though. Looks like a clamshell design with bolted down access hatches.
Might be something daft but essential like a naafi wagon

Could be anything knowing the Russians, there's footage of their medical wagons being rammed full of ammunition crates.

https://twitter.com/oryxspioenkop/status/1499366824022052868

I also think natos **** it and we’d not even back Poland if he rolled in! Nukes have changed everything.

What makes you think that?

Because its the lesser of 2 very big evils

Putin won't invade Poland. NATO then write off his conventional forces and then he launches and we launch.

This crisis has shown why NATO exists.

binners
Full Member
Are we being taken seriously on the World Stage currently?

Post-Brexit, we are an utter and complete irrelevance.

You always sound like you lament this fact? I'm perfect happy not to be a 'big player' tbh.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSPjo5D3KChuyOsdsPThkSgeDaTf4B-D-J5eg&usqp=CAU

^^ context?

@Scapegoat I do think they're two different uses. The logs you see strapped to the trucks are too thin and don't look wide enough to work as improvised traction tracks.

Considering they're pontoon bridge sections and will be required to drop their cargo off at a designated crossing point, looks like they're expecting to take some heat.

I'm not clicking any random link on this thread without some explanation what it is

@MoreCashThanDash it's a link to a low-res picture of that Russian BTR stuck in mud, with Ukranians using felled trees to try and recover it.

Its a pic of a troop carrier axle deep in mud. They have built a stick road in front of the apc
But wont be able to reach it without a wimch and a serious winching point

You always sound like you lament this fact? I’m perfect happy not to be a ‘big player’ tbh.

The problem is when you carry on trying to pretend to be a big player. Or you (as a country / economy / military force) [b]are[/b] a big player but the people in charge are so inept and clueless that they can't play the game.

For those that may be interested in the size difference: The Javelin is on the left of the image, the NLAW on the right.
[url= https://i.ibb.co/kgTWqg0/8la2cql8bml81.jp g" target="_blank">https://i.ibb.co/kgTWqg0/8la2cql8bml81.jp g"/> [/img][/url]

Does anyone else think Liz Truss reminds them of Gillian McKeith?

Hard to say. Send Truss a turd in a box to find out one way or the other.

Send Truss a turd in a box

Within six minutes of that turd arriving, Truss would pose for pics with it for her Insta account.

After reading a post on bikepacking.com this afternoon about Ukrainian companies that produce cycling kit, I placed an order for a lovely front rack with one of them. I added a note to say that I didn't expect delivery, just wanted to support them.

The owner emailed me this evening to say that he's joining the Ukrainian army in the next few days and has refunded my money, asking that I donate it to the Red Cross instead. His message ended with "Russia will be defeated".

I told him that he'll be in my thoughts, what else can you do. Go for a cycle, I suppose.

She'd probably do an unboxing Reel.

Within six minutes of that turd arriving, Truss would pose for pics with it for her Insta account.

 

Truss failing to point out in that tweet that she was at an EU meeting is fling tragic

Meanwhile Ukrainian farmers stealing tanks from that massive convoy stuck on the way to Kyiv

https://twitter.com/JimMFelton/status/1500025981901357056?t=7GFBM-gO4bH_cBPxcwqc0A&s=19

god1406
Free Member
After reading a post on bikepacking.com this afternoon about Ukrainian companies that produce cycling kit, I placed an order for a lovely front rack with one of them. I added a note to say that I didn’t expect delivery, just wanted to support them.

The owner emailed me this evening to say that he’s joining the Ukrainian army in the next few days and has refunded my money, asking that I donate it to the Red Cross instead. His message ended with “Russia will be defeated”.

I told him that he’ll be in my thoughts, what else can you do. Go for a cycle, I suppose.

So much good in that post other than the context of course.👍