MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
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Is Germany in cahoots with Russia?
No. It doesn’t want it be at war with Germany. It’s already done more to support Ukraine than most countries, and changed its post world war laws to allow it to do so.
One of the many reasons this war has been such a disaster for Russia is that a lot of their shiniest, newest kit has been captured and (unofficially) delivered straight into the eager hands of NATO R&D teams.
Hence why, even now, there is a degree of reluctance to hand over the really really new NATO kit, the challenger 2 we are sending is due to be replaced by the 3 for instance.
War is messy and there's no way to ensure that anything you send won't end up being poked in a facility east of the Urals.
Still better than Ukraine losing though.
end up being poked in a facility east of the Urals
And nobody wants to be poked east of the Urals!
And nobody wants to be poked east of the Urals!
It's that level of accuracy that's losing them the war
Thanks, I realise that with regard to technology, and I can understand it with reactive armour, but I’d assumed (perhaps wrongly) that DU armour was just plate,
I dont know about DU but the Abrams do use a composite armour developed from the Chobham armour. Some sort of mix of metal plus ceramics plus possible other stuff which is secret (assuming Russian/Chinese spies havent nicked it) and so isnt something you would want getting into Russian hands.
However the Challenger 2s also use it.
This is a best estimate of relative government-to-government contributions to Ukraine. It's difficult to compare countries because of the way that each country counts aid and the figures are due to be updated next month.
It's worth noting that some of the figures are future commitments which inflate figures beyond what has been seen in Ukraine to date. For example the EU committed €18bn in December but the first €3bn won't be paid until next week
https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/
I dont know about DU but the Abrams do use a composite armour developed from the Chobham armour
I'm not a MBT expert, merely an armchair observer, but there are various systems that Abrams have that are pretty capable https://www.army-technology.com/projects/abrams-m1a2-sepv3-main-battle-tank/
Abrams could be used but I don't know what would need to be removed to make export palatable. Most systems, whether armour or tech, will be more advanced than anything in the RF.
Crew safety is massive in the west and the only Challenger 2 killed was a tragic mistake by another Challenger 2 crew in Iraq. The open commander's hatch contributed to that tragedy. Another took 14 RPG rounds and an ATGM and only needed 6 hours of repairs.
As far as maintenance is concerned, engines and transmissions are in "power packs" in MBTs. A lot of in-field maintenance will be swapping modules and packs and more detailed support could theoretically be undertaken in better-equipped facilities elsewhere
Well, well ... Channel 4 just asked (20/1/2023) the Ukrainian minister whether it was true that about 100 Ukrainian arm personnel died everyday recently. The Ukrainian minister said it was true. No wonder the war is continuing because all the western propaganda have censored out the casualty number of the Ukrainian arm personnel.
It looks like the war is not going to stop anytime soon.
p/s: heavy tanks will be the sitting duck in the field of Ukraine/Russia. That's why Germany and UK refuse to supply them immediately. Notice the Ukrainian minister now trying arm twist UK into supplying them with their latest Challenger tanks? If those tanks are captured by the Russia, all form of future advantages will be gone. Hence, Germany & UK know that it is not a good idea to send them their own tanks.
.
Meanwhile back in the real world and also last June on the BBC
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-61742736
A senior Ukrainian presidential aide has told the BBC that between 100 and 200 Ukrainian troops are being killed on the front line every day.
Meanwhile back in the real world and also last June on the BBC
I know, right. Absolutely heart breaking
chewkw
Free MemberChannel 4 just asked <snip> the western propaganda have censored
Asking the question is a weird way to censor something.
No wonder the war is continuing because all the western propaganda have censored out the casualty number of the Ukrainian arm personnel.
I was very much aware of how many Ukrainian casualties there have been, and learnt about it from the mainstream media
all the western propaganda have censored out the casualty number of the Ukrainian arm personnel.
That statement doesn't stand 10 seconds of scrutiny.
From the Guardian last November:
"America’s top general has estimated that 100,000 Russian soldiers have been killed or wounded in Ukraine, and that Kyiv’s armed forces have “probably” suffered a similar level of casualties in the war.
Gen Mark Milley also suggested that as many as 40,000 Ukrainian civilians have been killed after being caught up in the conflict"
There are dozens and dozens of similar articles from Western media if you could be bothered to look. I know that doesn't fit your narrative. Western media is far from perfect but if you are really interested in media censorship - take a look at Russia.
Don’t waste your time on the troll 🤷♂️
It’s not just politics and export controls. It’s about if (when) one of these falls into Russian hands, and they are able to do a full technical exploitation of the armour to understand its capabilities and vulnerabilities. This would obv have major implications for US armour in any future confrontation with Russia or countries equipped by them.
At the very least the Russians have a 1990's vintage M2 they have been studying for years.
I remember reading a post on here linking to an article where an American NATO commander recalled being shown around a Russian base and the M2 was displayed as a bit of a "f*** you" to him and the US.
Who knows what they've got hold of in the years since?
However,yeah, it's obviously valid to keep as much tech hidden from Russia and their Chinese besties as possible of course.👍
I remember reading a post on here linking to an article where an American NATO commander recalled being shown around a Russian base and the M2 was displayed as a bit of a “f*** you” to him and the US.
Mark Hertling I think!
Speaking of which, this tweet from yesterday amused me very much:
https://twitter.com/MarkHertling/status/1616143264045727762?t=FLongk9vlvlsBuF8zYrdJw&s=19
At the very least the Russians have a 1990’s vintage M2 they have been studying for years.
I remember reading a post on here linking to an article where an American NATO commander recalled being shown around a Russian base and the M2 was displayed as a bit of a “f*** you” to him and the US.
M2? As in Bradley?
However,yeah, it’s obviously valid to keep as much tech hidden from Russia and their Chinese besties as possible of course.
Its a tricky balancing act. The classic example is the sidewinder.
It first got used in action by the Taiwanese. In one of the mini conflicts their jets had a lower max altitude than the Chinese jets and it was proving a significant disadvantage since the Chinese could pick when to fight.
So the Americans shipped out some technicians and first generation sidewinders out to Taiwan at which point the Chinese got a very unpleasant surprise.
One of the missiles though hit a Chinese jet without detonating and the pilot managed to fly home with it embedded in the plane and whilst he went for some new trousers the technicians got to work.
The Russians credit that one missile as being a massive boost for their entire missile project.
So on the one hand you risk them getting a massive boost to their armaments industry but on the other hand a weapon which isnt used for fear of it being copied is of limited use (doomsday weapons aside).
The flipside of course is its a safe bet several of those US cargo planes havent been empty when flying home.
Its a tricky balancing act. The classic example is the sidewinder.
I remember reading that Britain and Germany both invented radar jamming chaff (small strips of tinfoil that aircraft scatter to generate radar clutter) in WW2, but neither side deployed it immediately because they didn't want the other side to know about it and then use it against them. Not sure if it's true, but I'm sure that similar things happen all the time where both sides discover some trick but hold it back to avoid alerting the other side.
Enigma codes
They had to sacrifice some conveys otherwise Donitz would have guessed why they ships all turned round instead of sailing into a wolf pack.
snip...neither side deployed (chaff) immediately because they didn’t want the other side to know about it and then use it against them. Not sure if it’s true...
It is, but as radar systems developed better resolution it was felt that chaff was less of a problem and could be used
One of the options for Zuni rockets as supplied to Ukraine by the US is a chaff dispenser. I don't know if that payload is in the assistance packages though
Enigma codes
They had to sacrifice some conveys otherwise Donitz would have guessed why they ships all turned round instead of sailing into a wolf pack.
On this note, I'm very suspicious about why the highly vaunted Russian cyberwarfare abilities never appeared. My suspicion is that the NSA etc. were watching and had probably infiltrated the Russian systems but didn't want to tip their hand so they let the Russian botnets keep operating. In the weeks before the Russian invasion, the U.S. posted detailed plans of the Russian operation, making it obvious that Russian systems had been hacked. Those details would have alerted Russia that the U.S. had breached security, but the U.S. knew this so they served as a deliberate warning to Russia that their security was compromised. Once the invasion started, I'm guessing that the U.S. just crippled the Russian cyberwarfare capabilities, but there's nothing Russia can do about it without acknowledging their covert activities.
The Ukrainian Ambassador compared Challenger 1 to a T72 on R4 today. Yes it's older technology but it's 20 to 30 years younger than a T72. Gift horses and all that.
Mark Hertling has a Twitter thread on M1 Abrams tanks.
https://twitter.com/MarkHertling/status/1616792766167789570
On that subject
https://twitter.com/thorstenbenner/status/1617064545788522497?t=H8ac4bDq6cObz5qoMPDw1w&s=19
Poland is now buying tanks from the US and South Korea. A gigantic business is lost for Germany. It is particularly painful because one thing has become clear with the Polish decisions: Germany, the neighbor, is no longer a strategic, trustworthy partner. That's now the faraway United States and even farther away South Korea. It is this confidence card that the US is now playing on in the Ukraine war.In the background, they offer used tanks from their own stock as a replacement and a long-term industrial partnership to any country that could supply Leopard 2 to Ukraine. This is what is reported in German industrial circles. Any country that responds to the American offer is lost to the German tank industry. And with every country that loses German industry, Berlin's political influence on its allies in NATO and the EU dwindles.
Baerbock saying Poland can send L2 tanks if they want....
Also many of Germany's politicians are criticising Scholz for his indecision.
There is lots of weird politics going on around supply of equipment which is hard to understand unless, I suppose, you are an expert but even then I guess most of those who do have a clue about British armour isnt going to know much beyond that.
Its not helped by some of those countries being at the front of the queue offering weapons are doing so either because they are next up for Russia and/or are handing over their almost expired stock/obsolete weapons in order to get some decent kit in return.
As a random example its a bit of a shame we happened to have destroyed our old rapier missiles just before things kicked off. We could have saved a decent amount of cash safely destroying them if we had known and just stuck them 1st class to Ukraine.
I am not sure how much being able to hand your kit over to a third party will really be an influence with regards to the more expensive gear. For ammo sure (looking at Switzerland here) but for tanks or planes?
On that subject
I was wondering if someone would eventually consider this angle
Also many of Germany’s politicians are criticising Scholz for his indecision
@alpin
I'd be interested to hear your take on German politics. I think that most are aware that the SPD is in a coalition with the Green Party and the FPD, both of which seem to me to want to send Leopard 2 to Ukraine.
The SPD seems to me to be the party dragging its feet, which I find surprising given that coal mining has expanded as a result of the war and is contrary to green aims, as is war in itself. I expected the Green Party to be banging the ceasefire/negotiation drum, far from it, Robert Habeck (Green) allowed the expansion of coal mining and Katrin Goring-Eckardt (Green) called Scholz's indecision disappointing.
I don't read German, please help me out here.
Any thoughts on Russlandversteher/Putinversteher within the higher echelons of Germany?
@timba DW news is also in English. The exact same articles on the German site, just translated.
I can't say about the general feeling of people because I've not been in Germany since October.
My feeling is that the older generation were generally against war, the "nie wieder Krieg" (lit. vet again war) generation. The ones who lived through the post war issues of Germany.
Some opinion pieces in the "High-brow" papers, those read by those with lots of time in their hands have been very much against delivering weapons (Krieg ist die falsche Reaktion auf Krieg)
War is the wrong reaction to war
DW, with a younger audience has opinion pieces criticising the delays.
One of my best mates wife is Ukrainian. It's been hard for him and for us. She's had several of her extended family members killed or seriously wounded. Her father, aged 62, spends his free time digging trenches and training along the Belarus border.
I can’t say about the general feeling of people because I’ve not been in Germany since October
Ah, okay. I've heard/read a lot from Jessica Berlin, who is associated with DW.
I was interested in that more general perspective, thanks for your comments and best wishes to your mate's family
Some chatter now that the UA have entered the outskirts of Kreminna, pushing up from the forests to the SW of the town. If true it could be that they are able to start to push RA out of a vital logistics hub, pretty much severing the North / South logistics and supply route that runs through Svatove and into the North Donbas. This makes Severodonetsk vulnerable and will severely disrupt the RA logistics effort supporting Bakhmut and Soledar.
It’s certainly taking time, but the RA have been able to dig in and prepare a proper defensive line, with the troops to man it through conscription. Looks as if better weapons, tactics and training (not to mention morale) are winning through.
Few tanks wouldn’t go amiss though..
I'm not sure that this should be in the sunak thread, but FFS!
https://twitter.com/jimfitznews/status/1617580880935153666?t=lqrRfSAPhbjpgq3eS2OAhA&s=19
Needs to go on the Sunak thread - discussion on thereabout Russian money and its influence on the tories
Some chatter now that the UA have entered the outskirts of Kreminna, pushing up from the forests to the SW of the town.
Links please! 😀
Thrilled to see that once again that UK professional services and consulting organisations are enabled and emboldened to do the dirty work of those with the deepest pockets. How do these educated and informed people sleep? Ignorance is not a defence.
Seems like the Russians are not the only ones struggling with corruption!
once again that UK professional services and consulting organisations are enabled and emboldened to do the dirty work of those with the deepest pockets
What's worse is Government departments supporting them, which is using public money.
Seems like the Russians are not the only ones struggling with corruption!
The flip side is that those guilty of corruption in Ukraine (that make it into international news) are being forced out.
Not discounting corruption in Ukraine, it’s serious and arguably endemic. But if government officials find themselves out of a job I’m taking that as a good sign. Could do with some of that in the U.K.
https://twitter.com/sabfis3/status/1617943710179921920?s=21
Looking out for anything that firms this up.
Sorry Kimbers, I did miss your Wagner related post here… saw that story this morning elsewhere, and posted it on the Sunak thread. Still can’t quite believe it.
I strongly advise everyone to follow his link, and read it all. Freedom of speech… but “we” (the UK Treasury under Sunak) grant an exemption to sanctions to a Wagner Group top honcho to use our legal system to go after and try to silence a journalist for pointing out who and what he is. Jebus.
Looking out for anything that firms this up
Fantastic! Germany and the US have both declined to comment, which I see as a positive 🙂
14 A6 model from Germany, 100 from elsewhere, 14 Challenger 2 and the possibility of Abrams too (from the same source)
EDIT and I think from current stocks too
My inability to differentiate between real and parody continues...
https://twitter.com/GermanyDiplo/status/1617834372232785920?t=m1GJWZ8BjWrTnNNLZVNYpA&s=19
That is the actual German foreign office trolling the Russian Foreign Minister isnt it?
Looking out for anything that firms this up.
Süddeutsche.... That a proper paper and a good source.
That is the actual German foreign office trolling the Russian Foreign Minister isnt it?
I understand why you might be struggling, but almost unbelievably even the Germans can do humour.
Scholz has been under a lot of fire from politicians and the press about his indecision. Looks like it got through.
Slava Ukraini
Tanks on route or at least the paper work is on its way.
Only a wisper on the BBC news site but it's a wisper.
Wonder what deals been done with Poland as im sure they where about to send them without Germanys blessings.
Perhaps the dam will now break on military aid?
Interesting that the Netherlands are being so vociferous - maybe the Malaysian airliner full of heir citizens shot down by the Russians?
The US is to send 50. M1 Abrams tanks. Wow!
Scholz has been under a lot of fire from politicians and the press about his indecision.
I don't buy the "indecision" spin from the media and some politicians... ensuring this is a multi-national move is an essential aim for Germany, who don't want it to be a "German tanks enter conflict with Russia" story due to, well, history... it can't even be about Germany and geographically close countries (with German built tanks)... it's needs to be a wider move... and it looks like that could be about to happen.
🤞🏻
Let's hope we get something firm this week. If it's today, we'll have to wait for the USA working day.
Some credit probably due to the UK government for announcing tanks early and perhaps pushing the international response by doing so (it might have been even better to be part of a wider announcement, we'll never be quite sure).
Interesting that the Netherlands are being so vociferous – maybe the Malaysian airliner full of heir citizens shot down by the Russians?
Not only theirs- bit close to home for me that one
We might need a quiet word with our Dutch friends....
The US is to send 50. M1 Abrams tanks. Wow!
But do the Ukranian's have the 200 crew, 400 mechanics, 500 drivers, stores, trucks, space to repair etc these things?
I am still wondering if some of this is a political 'keep the pressure on Poo-tin' move so that he knows the Ukranian's are not being abandoned.
It also means the Russian commanders will have to be very careful about where and how they operate armour come the spring offensives - it 'steers' the Russian tactics some more into a place where Ukraine has more insight into what they are doing and where they are operating maybe? Might it tempt a couple more Russian airforce attacks which can be taken out etc etc.
All they have to do his make sure a few of the Western weapons are seen to be in the theatre of war,
Swiss have just voted to allow re-export of their arms to ukraine - this includes scarce ammunition for the Gepard Anti Ac systems. Very good news.
USA announcement now. It's official.
Are the tanks a game changer or too precious to be anywhere near the front?
Are the tanks a game changer
Leopards, yes. Abrahms, no. But it means a wide response, not a "German led" one.
Use the Abrams as rear guard around Kiev. Then they are in country and have served the purpose of releasing Leopard tanks from German embargo. So Germany et al who said we will send tanks if you send Abrams cant now back out.
Thay are big, the M1A1 was around 60t iirc so bridge weight limits become critical. Plus all the transport required. I think the Leopard is multi fuel, like the challenger but the Abrams is jet fuel only ad its a turbine. Fast though, be in crimea in no time.
100-200 modern tanks of any flavour , plus 100 Bradleys, 50 Marder, 50 AMX10, 50 CV90, 100 new western SPG and hundreds of new APCs. Yes, that lot is pretty game changing.
The leopards weigh about as much (all the main western tanks are heavyweights) plus the Abrams engine is multi fuel.
Very good news!
Looking a year or two ahead when the focus has moved to securing Ukraine's borders, having Abrams experience is a good idea. The US can probably deliver them more easily than Germany can Leopards in large numbers.
Yes, long term they'll be essential. This year though, it's the Leopards that are needed, ASAP.
Anyway, good announcement from Germany and USA, a relief that it wasn’t just rumours.
Abrams engine is multi fuel
Absolutely. I keep seeing that it runs on jet fuel only, it doesn't.
The original design was a diesel-fuelled turbine engine and it'll also run on petrol or aircraft jet fuel. The US tend to use jet fuel because it's logistically simpler
Newer upgrades include an auxiliary power unit to keep systems running without the thirsty main turbine burning fuel
Spec-wise the three MBTs are similar and Challenger 2, Abrams and L2 all use a 120mm gun that uses common ammunition. Challenger 2 uses a rifled gun that will also fire HESH rounds, which has been a UK preference. The smoothbore guns on Abrams and L2 will also fire HEAT rounds but not HESH
Trent Telenko (Twitter) says that an Abrams power pack can be changed in an hour, that's a complete unit with transmission, cooling and exhaust systems. The broken pack can be sent back for specific repair
Are the tanks a game changer or too precious to be anywhere near the front?
They're part of a system, there's an article here...
https://theconversation.com/ukraine-war-supply-of-advanced-tanks-will-give-kyiv-an-edge-over-russia-and-move-it-closer-to-nato-197592
The article is pre-Leopard announcement and the information yesterday was that the German contribution will be the more capable A6 variant
Bottom line is that MBTs are meant to take ground as part of that system. Current numbers are maybe half of what Ukraine wanted, but that could be a bargaining position
Fast though, be in crimea in no time
Abrams and C2 about 25mph across country, L2 is a bit quicker 🙂
Abrams and L2 45mph on road, C2 a bit slower
C2 has the greatest range on a tank-full, L2 the worst
Abrams and C2 about 25mph across country, L2 is a bit quicker 🙂
Abrams and L2 45mph on road, C2 a bit slower
C2 has the greatest range on a tank-full, L2 the worst
Is this from wikipedia or Top Trumps 🙂
Is this from wikipedia or Top Trumps
It's the best that I can find, but no guarantees... https://xkcd.com/386/ 🙂
Spec-wise the three MBTs are similar and Challenger 2, Abrams and L2 all use a 120mm gun that uses common ammunition. Challenger 2 uses a rifled gun that will also fire HESH rounds, which has been a UK preference. The smoothbore guns on Abrams and L2 will also fire HEAT rounds but not HESH
Not entirely true, yes they all use 120mm ammunition, but the Challenger uses a two part ammo, the projectile and charge are separate, three part if you consider the charge is ignited by what is called a vent tube.
The M1 and L2 use conventional one piece ammunition, hence the large buttress on the rear of the turret. There will be logistical issues to supplying two differing types of ammunition.
There will be logistical issues to supplying two differing types of ammunition.
Three, considering their existing tanks
Is this from wikipedia or Top Trumps
From world of tanks of course.
Which if you havent heard of it is an online tank battle again with some very dedicated fans including members of various tank units.
There have been several occasions where people have complained about the stats of a particular tank and provided restricted documents to back up their claims.
Challenger 2 has the ability to make cups of tea.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_vessel
Clearly it is superior.
Abrahams have an Ooni 3 Pizza Oven welded on the back
Not entirely true, yes they all use 120mm ammunition...snip
I've flicked back through the Top Trumps and you're right, which isn't what they say... http://military-today.com/tanks/challenger_2.htm 🙂
Thanks for pointing that out. Challenger 3 will be NATO-standard
Challenger 3 will be NATO-standard
Milk and two sugars?