[Closed] UKIP = The BNP in suits ??

since the UKIP were formed, has there ever been [i]any[/i] doubt that they are in fact just BNP-lite?

Thats democracy for you.

it is a shame that we must look beyond our own borders for a bit of balance.

ever been any doubt that they are in fact just BNP-lite?

I think there are people, especially older folk who haven't actually twigged it, and just hanker back to the "good old days" ..... admittedly with colonialism and so forth, but not overtly espousing racism

His views do balance those of the fundamentalist religious idiots most seem too afraid to counter in debate.

Thats democracy for you.

Precisely. No matter what anyone thinks to any other individual's views, they are, if remaining legal (and discounting the pathetic attempts to stop Nick Griffin from appearing on QT because of the party's 'illegal' exclusion policies) equally valid in a democracy.

His views do balance those of the fundamentalist religious idiots most seem too afraid to counter in debate.

You are living in a fantasy world mate (or reading too much BNP literature)

When was the last time the UK allowed in a foreign Muslim to preach hatred against Christians ?

Not sure about that balance business. I understand the argument, but isn't it the same as allowing racist chanting at football matches? You know, it balances out against the muslim extremeists that brandish signs with Death to the unbelievers and the like. Surely, they are both guilty of racism and hate crime and should be both treated uniformly, which I hasten to add football in this country has dealt with very firmly indeed, so no crticism of their stance intended.

I think it would be good for Nick to appear on QT, he will be show to the public for all to see in a proper debate. Bring it on. What better way to inform and educate than in open fair debate.

Banning anyone / thing is not going to work. Educated open debate is the way forward.

Trimix - I totally agree.

I understand the argument, but isn't it the same as allowing racist chanting at football matches?

No - because it's not illegal to say what they are currently saying, the chanting etc. probably is

I think it would be good for Nick to appear on QT

"Nick" ? You are obviously on first name terms with him ........ so with reference to my previous post, you are presumably reading too much BNP literature.

Nick Griffin and Chris Eubank on the same QT panel would be great TV.

i saw nick griffin in chester a few weeks back

he had a bit of a bright orange perma-tan thing going on which was quite amusing

best of all his missus was a proper troll 😀

Political parties will say anything to get votes.

I am concerned about the Islam values and how they fit it with 'western values'.

People need to work together, not hate each other.

BNP reading material? Under 10yr olds, fiction section on the far right...Nazis scumbags.

Nick Griffin and Chris Eubank on the same QT panel would be great TV.

No - because it's not illegal to say what they are currently saying, the chanting etc. probably is

Not so

BNP is currently an illegal organisation. The invitation to appear on QTR has been challenged on that basis.

Geert Wilders is currently subject to prosecution in the Netherlands.

BNP is currently an illegal organisation

I think it needs more than Peter Hain saying so for it to be actually illegal

[img] [/img]

I think it needs more than Peter Hain saying so for it to be actually illegal

Yes of course it does, there's no argument there .............. how about the BNP pleading guilty at the Central London County Court last Thursday - will that do ?

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/663ee9f6-b995-11de-a747-00144feab49a.html?ftcamp=rss&nclick_check=1

I would like to see some Black or Asian (Gay) members join the BNP for them to be legit. 😀

[url= http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6880804.ece ]“There is no foundation for such a case. Anyone wishing to challenge the BBC would face great difficulty. I think the BBC’s position would be unassailable.”[/url]

They aren't an "illegal organisation" the way this lot are: [url= http://security.homeoffice.gov.uk/legislation/current-legislation/terrorism-act-2000/proscribed-groups ]Proscribed Groups List[/url]. They are an organisation which is currently in breach of some laws. The same applies to most organisations from time to time. (Admittedly, it's pretty serious for the BNP's sense of what it's for in their case...) 🙂

They aren't an "illegal organisation" the way this lot are: Proscribed Groups List

The BNP has fully admitted in court to operating illegally in a way which no other party does. This puts them in a different category to other parties which operate within the law. They very clearly do not have the same legitimacy as other parties which are invited by the BBC to appear on QT.

I think it would be good for Nick to appear on QT, he will be show to the public for all to see in a proper debate. Bring it on. What better way to inform and educate than in open fair debate.

Initially I thought this would be a good idea, but even if griffin gets slaughtered on QT, it still won't stop idiots voting for them.

Ernie, I agree with you, but I also agree with the guys quoted in The Times (my link above). They're dreadful, but there simply isn't a decent legal basis for stopping Griffin appearing. You and I differ on whether that matters.

Interestingly, a chap wrote to Private Eye the other week to note that, as a BNP councillor, he had been invited as part of the audience for a QT some time ago on the understanding that he would be allowed to ask a question.

What could be better than having their arguments destroyed in front of millions?
It's a godsend getting them into live debates

The collection of letters "BNP" have appeared in 90% of the posts here. Repeat that over the net, televised and written media and it makes you wonder who is doing worst out of all this.

Ryanair marketing anyone? 🙄

What could be better than having their arguments destroyed in front of [b]millions[/b]?

This is Question Time, not popfactordancingfatcelebrityonice! 😆

What could be better than having their arguments destroyed in front of millions?

Why do people always take Fascists to be idiots who will condemn themselves publicly ? Nick Griffin has no intention whatsoever of telling the truth about what his Party stands for or, what it believes in.

Any more than German Fascists in the 1930s talked publicly or made speeches about building concentration camps with gas chambers. Racists and Fascists historically have always been liars, in fact the "big Lie" goes to the very heart of their ideology.

[i]"The Big Lie (German: Große Lüge) is a propaganda technique. The expression was coined by Adolf Hitler in his 1925 autobiography Mein Kampf for a lie so "colossal" that no one would believe that someone "could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously".[/i]

And if anyone is still unconvinced that Nick Griffin will be determined to lie and mislead the British people when he appears on QT, here he is openly admitting that this is [u]exactly what he intends to do[/u]

48 seconds into this 1:40 minute video :

Quote :

[i]There is a difference between "setting out" your ideas and "selling your ideas". The British National Party isn't about "setting out" it's ideas, which are your ideas too [he's talking to KKK terrorists] but we are determined now to "sell them". That means basically to use "saleable words"[/i] .....and so he carries on.

Nick Griffin will not tell the truth about the BNP on QT, he has made that very clear. And you cannot have a proper discussion or argument with someone who is lying. I expect Nick Griffin to come out of QT looking very good.

I think a lot of people need to stop treating the BNP just like any other political party...... they clearly are not, and play by completely different rules.

Still not convinced by the "lets give the BNP the oxygen of publicity" arguments. Seems to me that a central tenant of our legal system is that you cannot promote race/religious/creed intolerance and that all should be treated equally. So surely not allowing Muslim extremists or the BNP to pedal hatred is perfectly equitable within that concept?

The next step along the line is to give an extremist group at an opposite ned of the spectrum the same privilige, so what next Al Qaeda on Breakfast telly?

Why do people always take Fascists to be idiots who will condemn themselves publicly ? Nick Griffin has no intention whatsoever of telling the truth about what his Party stands for or, what it believes in.

I don't take them to be idiots but putting your fingers in your ears -whilst loudly shouting lalalalala - isn't going to make them go away

People thinking they're idiots though might just, the lies he'll spout on the TV can't be worse than the bile you hear being bandied around the pubs etc.

I'm prepared to listen to anyone's argument/opinion & make my own mind up about them, I rather not be sheltered from it if it's all the same to you

So surely not allowing Muslim extremists or the BNP to peddle hatred

The BNP will not 'peddle hatred' on QT. They do that at their branch meetings.

And you cannot have a proper discussion or argument with someone who is lying

So, by that logic, no one can have a proper discussion or argument with our Prime Minister or the vast majority of all politicians in all the main parties!

I'm prepared to listen to anyone's argument/opinion & make my own mind up about them, I rather not be sheltered from it if it's all the same to you

Still not convinced by the "lets give the BNP the oxygen of publicity" arguments

Or as the late Linda Smith said "giving them the oxygen of oxygen is a bad move"

I don't take them to be idiots..........People thinking they're idiots though might just

😕

.

[i]"can't be worse than the bile you hear being bandied around the pubs "[/i]

If you think Nick Griffin will spout 'the bile you hear being bandied around the pubs' you obviously [i]do think[/i] he's an idiot.

If you think Nick Griffin will spout 'the bile you hear being bandied around the pubs' you obviously do think he's an idiot.

I don't - I said it couldn't be worse

His views do balance those of the fundamentalist religious idiots most seem too afraid to counter in debate.

Well they've banned extremist Muslims from entering the UK too, so you can't accuse them of favouritism.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1959105.stm

UKIP inviting this bloke to the UK is nothing more than an attempt to get them some exposure and scoop up some of the idiot vote. The idea that he has something important to say is bollocks, particularly when even the UK government seems to be sliding towards the view that all Muslims are potential suicide bombers.

Why do people always take Socialists to be idiots who will condemn themselves publicly ? Gordon Brown/Tony Blair/Peter Mandelson has no intention whatsoever of telling the truth about what his Party stands for or, what it believes in.

Any more than Russian Bolshevieks in the 1920s talked publicly or made speeches about mass starvation and building gulags. Racists and Communists historically have always been liars, in fact the "big Lie" goes to the very heart of their ideology.

Seems to me that [b]anyone[/b] who dares to disagree with immigration or islamic fundamentalism, or even to enter a debate about the issues involved is going to be labelled a Racist/BNP supporter/Fascist/Wicked Witch of the North. Welcome to the brave new world...

So then ernie what do you propose should be done? ignoring them certainly hasn't worked, outlaw them? if so what does that say for freedom of speech?

For my shame, my younger brother votes BNP, not because he is racist, but because he believes their headlines/propaganda that they are the only UK party that is looking out for the average British citizen and aren't focused how much money there MPs can extract from the working class tax payers.

He has looked at their fliers and read their website, and as he says the information on it isn't racist as it talks about British jobs for British people, and to him a Asian or Black person is just as British as he is, so that statement isn't racist.

So if the BNP are put on TV, he will see exactly what the BNP mean by 'British'.
So if QT can get decent Politicians and panelist who can debate (ie: not Shami Chakrabarti, who you get the feeling will just chant racist at him) it will help educate the thousands of people who have been voting BNP not because they are racist, but because they don't understand what the organisation stands for.

and as he says the information on it isn't racist as it talks about British jobs for British people

Government policy as well.

richc, I would however take issue with your comment on Chakrabati (spl?), as I think she's someone I would love to see take Griffin on. She's not totally tied to any political ideology and debates very well, IMO.

There are some good suggestions as to what people could ask the rubbery-jowled tossbag here:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/oct/19/bnp-nick-griffin-question-time

i like the suggestion that the bnp leadership submit to dna testing to prove their pure blood european credentials!!

I don't - I said it couldn't be worse

Well it's all a bit confusing, because you also said that you didn't think he was an idiot and yet, you think that if everyone who sees him on QT and comes to the conclusion that he's an idiot, then the BNP might 'go away'. 😕

You also said : [i]"I'm prepared to listen to anyone's argument/opinion & make my own mind up about them"[/i] and yet I've posted a link where he very clearly states that he has no intention of "setting out" his ideas to the British people - [i]his[/i] words not mine.

So how are you going to come to a conclusion to what he believes in by watching QT ? 😕

Seems to me that anyone who dares to disagree with immigration or islamic fundamentalism, or even to enter a debate about the issues involved is going to be labelled a Racist/BNP supporter/Fascist/Wicked Witch of the North. Welcome to the brave new world...

You feeling a little bit victimised labrat?

Nope El-Bent - just a libertarian who believes in the constitutional birthright of an Englishman - as laid out through common law, the great charters and the Bill of Rights.

You know, free speech, right to trial, innocent till proven guilty - things like that, gone in the name of political expediency

Amazing to think that we got through two world wars without sacrificing these freedoms to the extent we have in the last decade - even more remarkable to think that the bleeding heart liberals who are the first to jump up and down on this site regards freedom to protest and police preventing lawful protest and freedom of speech, are the first to deny it to people who they don't agree with...

So how are you going to come to a conclusion to what he believes in by watching QT

The same way anyone else forms an opinion of a speaker - you have no real way of knowing if any of them are telling the truth
Anyway I wasn't talking about QT specifically just in general

CFB, I think she will just get too fired up, and Nick Griffin will bait her and he will come across as a Tofu eating greeny liberal.

Everytime she is on QT with some of the loony Conservatives or worse Geoff Hoon she tends to lose it and muddles her point. Personally I hope the BBC gets some serious heavy hitters in who can dissect Nick Griffins points and expose him.

The problem is a lot of those people won't want to tarnish their public image by sitting near him, so hopefully some of the peers will come on the program, Tony Benn, Paddy Ashdown or Shirely Williams are always good at getting to the heart of issues.

.....to him a Asian or Black person is just as British as he is, so that statement isn't racist.

Yep richc, that is exactly what Nick Griffin was talking about in that video. I'm perfectly prepared to believe that many who vote BNP are not racist. Nick Griffin's strategy of "selling" his ideas rather than "setting out" his ideas, appears to be working very well.

And I repeat, I expect him to do very well on QT, I will be surprised if he doesn't anyway. As he has no intention of "setting out" his ideas.

Why not get him on QT? Question time viewers and BNP supporters are two very different and mutually exclusive groups of people (generally, certainly not enough to swing majority votes).

Watching Tony Benn dismantle Griffin's facade of half-truths, distortions and outright lies would be exceedingly good telly!

And I repeat, I expect him to do very well on QT, I will be surprised if he doesn't anyway. As he has no intention of "setting out" his ideas.

If that's the case the chair and the other panelists will have failed, as the questions and his comments should be analyzed and any inconsistencies questioned, that's the point of a debate.

If BBC gets in a load of lame ducks then it could turn into a party political broadcast, however they seem to see this as a opportunity to get some actual party opinions from Nick Griffin so fingers crossed it doesn't.

Putting you fingers in your ears and saying lah-lah-lah is what got them 2 seats in the European Parliament, so I am all for anything that isn't that, as I personally don't want the ****ers getting any seats in the UK Parliament.

If a government minister appears on one of these programmes, they are asked a series of questions, to which they provide evasive answers or indeed ones that most viewers regard as highly implausible. The people watching conclude that they are evading the question or twisting words because a truthful and frank answer would be unpalatable and would not serve their agenda. People would mark them down accordingly.

Ernie reckons Griffin will come on QT, someone will ask him "are you a grotesque little fascist with evil plans to abolish democracy?", he'll say "no, my party and I are just standing up for the hard-working moral majority".

Is it too much to expect that many/most people will see that and say "I'm not sure that's quite right actually"?

If thats the case the chair and the other panelists will have failed

What are you talking about .......... they can't force Nick Griffin to make a racist comment 😕

I fully expect Nick Griffin to tell the audience just how much he loves and admires hard-working black and asian people. But have you [i]actually[/i] ever met a BNP member ? And I don't mean one in a smart suit canvassing.

The problem with Griffin on QT is that I don't think the politicians have got their critique of the BNP right. Clearly UAF has failed, the problem will be that the other panellists will spend all of their time trying to sit at the other other end of the see-saw to Nick Griffin when they should be showing that there are legitimate concerns regarding Immigration and the cost of it, the European Union and it's effect on our way of life, the Nation and it's identity and so on (all the things that all the parties seem incredibly reluctant to discuss), and that the BNP are exactly the wrong people to be left to deal with it.

The only person on that panel that Griffin has to fear is Baroness Warsi who can, and should say "what's un-British about me, Nick?"

So what do you reckon should be done? as ignoring them certainly isn't working.

Is it too much to expect that many/most people will see that and say "I'm not sure that's quite right actually"?

A lot like richc brother won't. Not everyone is obsessed with following politics that closely BD.

Ernie_Lynch - I agree entirely with your last point about NGs stance on British jobs for British people. I would be very surprised, given his background, that he means British people of any ethnic origin.

But if he DID mean British jobs for any British citizen regardless of race, colour, creed, the policy would make sense wouldn't it? I welcome the opportunity to hear, for myself, his actual stance on this. If I form the opinion that he is avoiding the questions then I have made that decision for myself. I do not need other politicians with their own agendas stopping him from appearing. As was said at the top, we live in a democracy and we have a right to free speech. Other than this recent (rather weak) claim of illegality of the party, they deserve the right to appear on such a programme to voice their points of view.

.... Not everyone is obsessed with following politics that closely BD

But I would think a fair proportion of QTs audience are

but I think ernie point is that the majority of QT regular audience don't vote BNP, so that doesn't matter.

QT needs to reach out to those people who do vote BNP, and make them think hang on a minute I didn't think they meant that!

Herr Griffin was on R4 today. It's interesting to see how he's repositioning. He's now all for non-white, commonwealth soldiers moving here (especially ones with VCs) and wants to form a Sikh regiment (ala the Gurkhas) as he thinks Sikhs are great. He just wants to sling out the muslims.

Nope El-Bent - just a libertarian who believes in the constitutional birthright of an Englishman - as laid out through common law, the great charters and the Bill of Rights.

You know, free speech, right to trial, innocent till proven guilty - things like that, gone in the name of political expediency

Amazing to think that we got through two world wars without sacrificing these freedoms to the extent we have in the last decade - even more remarkable to think that the bleeding heart liberals who are the first to jump up and down on this site regards freedom to protest and police preventing lawful protest and freedom of speech, are the first to deny it to people who they don't agree with...

Brush up on your history, freedoms were curtailed to such an extent in WW2 that the state controlled everything.

No "bleeding heart liberals" are denying the right to freedom of speech here or anywhere else, they are merely exercising their right to free speech to point out the flaws in others political beliefs, just as you would. It's only your libertarian mindset that sees this, which kind of points out what gang of libertarians you belong to.

 

So what do you reckon should be done? as ignoring them certainly isn't working.

Me more than anyone, knows that ignoring them isn't the solution. Exposing them for what they really are, is the way to deal with them. Videos like that one where Nick Griffin is talking to the Ku Klux Klan is good for that sort of stuff. But treating them just like any other political party is not the way imo.

But of course to [i]most effective[/i] way to stop the growth of Fascism/the BNP is to deal with the issues which they are so keen to exploit. BNP recent successes mirror precisely New Labour's failures. The Labour Party has turned it's back on it's core voters, and it is no coincidence that the BNP only does well in traditional Labour territory - never in Conservative areas. New Labour has a very heavy burden of responsibility for the growth of the BNP.

Britain needs a party which puts the interests of the ordinary British people first. But not one which fascist, racist, or homophobic.

But if he DID mean British jobs for any British citizen regardless of race, colour, creed, the policy would make sense wouldn't it?

Absolutely. I fully support British jobs for British workers. And indeed I very much understand the importance of patriotism ..... something which I have been criticised on here for.

Britain needs a party which puts the interests of the ordinary British people first

Another interesting thread!

Given sufficient rope the irksome little toad will hang himself.

Griffin did just this a few weeks ago on a radio interview, he was sounding very plausible right up to the point when he said, and I am paraphrasing "and what is all this with a black Friar Tuck in Robin Hood" with such vitriol the listener was left in no doubt about the meaning. He just does not handle robust, intelligent questioning at all well.

[i]And that party is? Or nearest to being it? [/i]

That depends whether you think "being racist" is more a disqualification than "not apparently worrying much about the interests of "ordinary British people". 😉

I fully support British jobs for British workers.

The problem is that many Brits of employable age and health have a poor attitude to work which is why migrant workers end up "stealing" their jobs. I want the job done and don't give a toss either way who does it. How many modern "British" families are actually 2nd or 3rd generation migrants who came here to plug skills shortages?

And that party is? Or nearest to being it?

Britain hasn't got one MF ....[i]that's[/i] the whole point. And that's why the BNP have had the electoral breakthrough which fascists in Britain have been waiting over 70 years for. Nothing else has changed in that respect, for the last 70 years.

So yeah, Britain needs a party which puts the interests of the ordinary British people first.

Watching Tony Benn dismantle Griffin's facade of half-truths, distortions and outright lies would be exceedingly good telly!

One of the few things you could ever persuade me to pay money to watch. Great idea!

The problem is that many Brits of employable age and health have a poor attitude to work

Is that why unemployment has shot up recently ?

Britain wasn't flooded with cheap foreign labour by New Labour because of "poor attitude to work ". Unless of course, you think that not wanting to work for peanuts constitutes a "poor attitude to work ".

Unless of course, you think that not wanting to work for peanuts constitutes a "poor attitude to work ".

I take it then, that you've got a really good attitude to work and work for **** all 5thElefant.

Good for you mate.

Well said El bent

i would LOVE it if a black or asian in the audience asked him for a big hug
and went on stage to do it - just to see him squirm

he's a vile little shit, who lives a life based on negatives and the fears of the shallow end of the gene pool - another phucking ian paisley, but without the dog collar

ordinary British people

who are exactly? what? white and a bit thick? or who were born, live and work here?

i was in dublin a while ago with a sales director. he was moaning about all the eastern european accents - 'scroungers coming there for work' - i had to point out that as an englishman, he was a foreigner, there for the same reason - plus we was uglier than the nice polish blonde serving us coffee really politely

So what about the BNP party members (including their publicity director)who claimed that Ashley Cole is not "ethnically British" and that he "came to this country" even though the footballer in question was born in London?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2009/oct/11/bbc-bnp-ashley-cole-comment-row

Is it fair to say that "ordinary British people" (for the purposes of these discussions, I'm not setting out an ideology) were born in Britain to parents who were fairly settled in Britain, basically want to work, basically want to work in Britain and are not qualified to work in high finance?

This seems like a good time to repost the mind-boggling Vice Magazine BNP article that someone dug up a while back:

http://vice.typepad.com/vice_magazine/2009/07/london-babes-of-the-bnp.html