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Seems to me that anyone who dares to disagree with immigration or islamic fundamentalism, or even to enter a debate about the issues involved is going to be labelled a Racist/BNP supporter/Fascist/Wicked Witch of the North. Welcome to the brave new world...
You feeling a little bit victimised labrat?
Nope El-Bent - just a libertarian who believes in the constitutional birthright of an Englishman - as laid out through common law, the great charters and the Bill of Rights.
You know, free speech, right to trial, innocent till proven guilty - things like that, gone in the name of political expediency
Amazing to think that we got through two world wars without sacrificing these freedoms to the extent we have in the last decade - even more remarkable to think that the bleeding heart liberals who are the first to jump up and down on this site regards freedom to protest and police preventing lawful protest and freedom of speech, are the first to deny it to people who they don't agree with...
So how are you going to come to a conclusion to what he believes in by watching QT
The same way anyone else forms an opinion of a speaker - you have no real way of knowing if any of them are telling the truth
Anyway I wasn't talking about QT specifically just in general
CFB, I think she will just get too fired up, and Nick Griffin will bait her and he will come across as a Tofu eating greeny liberal.
Everytime she is on QT with some of the loony Conservatives or worse Geoff Hoon she tends to lose it and muddles her point. Personally I hope the BBC gets some serious heavy hitters in who can dissect Nick Griffins points and expose him.
The problem is a lot of those people won't want to tarnish their public image by sitting near him, so hopefully some of the peers will come on the program, Tony Benn, Paddy Ashdown or Shirely Williams are always good at getting to the heart of issues.
.....to him a Asian or Black person is just as British as he is, so that statement isn't racist.
Yep richc, that is exactly what Nick Griffin was talking about in that video. I'm perfectly prepared to believe that many who vote BNP are not racist. Nick Griffin's strategy of "selling" his ideas rather than "setting out" his ideas, appears to be working very well.
And I repeat, I expect him to do very well on QT, I will be surprised if he doesn't anyway. As he has no intention of "setting out" his ideas.
Why not get him on QT? Question time viewers and BNP supporters are two very different and mutually exclusive groups of people (generally, certainly not enough to swing majority votes).
Watching Tony Benn dismantle Griffin's facade of half-truths, distortions and outright lies would be exceedingly good telly!
And I repeat, I expect him to do very well on QT, I will be surprised if he doesn't anyway. As he has no intention of "setting out" his ideas.
If that's the case the chair and the other panelists will have failed, as the questions and his comments should be analyzed and any inconsistencies questioned, that's the point of a debate.
If BBC gets in a load of lame ducks then it could turn into a party political broadcast, however they seem to see this as a opportunity to get some actual party opinions from Nick Griffin so fingers crossed it doesn't.
Putting you fingers in your ears and saying lah-lah-lah is what got them 2 seats in the European Parliament, so I am all for anything that isn't that, as I personally don't want the ****ers getting any seats in the UK Parliament.
If a government minister appears on one of these programmes, they are asked a series of questions, to which they provide evasive answers or indeed ones that most viewers regard as highly implausible. The people watching conclude that they are evading the question or twisting words because a truthful and frank answer would be unpalatable and would not serve their agenda. People would mark them down accordingly.
Ernie reckons Griffin will come on QT, someone will ask him "are you a grotesque little fascist with evil plans to abolish democracy?", he'll say "no, my party and I are just standing up for the hard-working moral majority".
Is it too much to expect that many/most people will see that and say "I'm not sure that's quite right actually"?
If thats the case the chair and the other panelists will have failed
What are you talking about .......... they can't force Nick Griffin to make a racist comment 😕
I fully expect Nick Griffin to tell the audience just how much he loves and admires hard-working black and asian people. But have you [i]actually[/i] ever met a BNP member ? And I don't mean one in a smart suit canvassing.
The problem with Griffin on QT is that I don't think the politicians have got their critique of the BNP right. Clearly UAF has failed, the problem will be that the other panellists will spend all of their time trying to sit at the other other end of the see-saw to Nick Griffin when they should be showing that there are legitimate concerns regarding Immigration and the cost of it, the European Union and it's effect on our way of life, the Nation and it's identity and so on (all the things that all the parties seem incredibly reluctant to discuss), and that the BNP are exactly the wrong people to be left to deal with it.
The only person on that panel that Griffin has to fear is Baroness Warsi who can, and should say "what's un-British about me, Nick?"
So what do you reckon should be done? as ignoring them certainly isn't working.
Is it too much to expect that many/most people will see that and say "I'm not sure that's quite right actually"?
A lot like richc brother won't. Not everyone is obsessed with following politics that closely BD.
Ernie_Lynch - I agree entirely with your last point about NGs stance on British jobs for British people. I would be very surprised, given his background, that he means British people of any ethnic origin.
But if he DID mean British jobs for any British citizen regardless of race, colour, creed, the policy would make sense wouldn't it? I welcome the opportunity to hear, for myself, his actual stance on this. If I form the opinion that he is avoiding the questions then I have made that decision for myself. I do not need other politicians with their own agendas stopping him from appearing. As was said at the top, we live in a democracy and we have a right to free speech. Other than this recent (rather weak) claim of illegality of the party, they deserve the right to appear on such a programme to voice their points of view.
.... Not everyone is obsessed with following politics that closely BD
But I would think a fair proportion of QTs audience are
but I think ernie point is that the majority of QT regular audience don't vote BNP, so that doesn't matter.
QT needs to reach out to those people who do vote BNP, and make them think hang on a minute I didn't think they meant that!
Herr Griffin was on R4 today. It's interesting to see how he's repositioning. He's now all for non-white, commonwealth soldiers moving here (especially ones with VCs) and wants to form a Sikh regiment (ala the Gurkhas) as he thinks Sikhs are great. He just wants to sling out the muslims.
Nope El-Bent - just a libertarian who believes in the constitutional birthright of an Englishman - as laid out through common law, the great charters and the Bill of Rights.You know, free speech, right to trial, innocent till proven guilty - things like that, gone in the name of political expediency
Amazing to think that we got through two world wars without sacrificing these freedoms to the extent we have in the last decade - even more remarkable to think that the bleeding heart liberals who are the first to jump up and down on this site regards freedom to protest and police preventing lawful protest and freedom of speech, are the first to deny it to people who they don't agree with...
Brush up on your history, freedoms were curtailed to such an extent in WW2 that the state controlled everything.
No "bleeding heart liberals" are denying the right to freedom of speech here or anywhere else, they are merely exercising their right to free speech to point out the flaws in others political beliefs, just as you would. It's only your libertarian mindset that sees this, which kind of points out what gang of libertarians you belong to.
So what do you reckon should be done? as ignoring them certainly isn't working.
Me more than anyone, knows that ignoring them isn't the solution. Exposing them for what they really are, is the way to deal with them. Videos like that one where Nick Griffin is talking to the Ku Klux Klan is good for that sort of stuff. But treating them just like any other political party is not the way imo.
But of course to [i]most effective[/i] way to stop the growth of Fascism/the BNP is to deal with the issues which they are so keen to exploit. BNP recent successes mirror precisely New Labour's failures. The Labour Party has turned it's back on it's core voters, and it is no coincidence that the BNP only does well in traditional Labour territory - never in Conservative areas. New Labour has a very heavy burden of responsibility for the growth of the BNP.
Britain needs a party which puts the interests of the ordinary British people first. But not one which fascist, racist, or homophobic.
But if he DID mean British jobs for any British citizen regardless of race, colour, creed, the policy would make sense wouldn't it?
Absolutely. I fully support British jobs for British workers. And indeed I very much understand the importance of patriotism ..... something which I have been criticised on here for.
Britain needs a party which puts the interests of the ordinary British people first
And that party is? Or nearest to being it?
Another interesting thread!
Given sufficient rope the irksome little toad will hang himself.
Griffin did just this a few weeks ago on a radio interview, he was sounding very plausible right up to the point when he said, and I am paraphrasing "and what is all this with a black Friar Tuck in Robin Hood" with such vitriol the listener was left in no doubt about the meaning. He just does not handle robust, intelligent questioning at all well.
[i]And that party is? Or nearest to being it? [/i]
That depends whether you think "being racist" is more a disqualification than "not apparently worrying much about the interests of "ordinary British people". 😉
I fully support British jobs for British workers.
The problem is that many Brits of employable age and health have a poor attitude to work which is why migrant workers end up "stealing" their jobs. I want the job done and don't give a toss either way who does it. How many modern "British" families are actually 2nd or 3rd generation migrants who came here to plug skills shortages?
And that party is? Or nearest to being it?
Britain hasn't got one MF ....[i]that's[/i] the whole point. And that's why the BNP have had the electoral breakthrough which fascists in Britain have been waiting over 70 years for. Nothing else has changed in that respect, for the last 70 years.
So yeah, Britain needs a party which puts the interests of the ordinary British people first.
Watching Tony Benn dismantle Griffin's facade of half-truths, distortions and outright lies would be exceedingly good telly!
One of the few things you could ever persuade me to pay money to watch. Great idea!
The problem is that many Brits of employable age and health have a poor attitude to work
Is that why unemployment has shot up recently ?
Britain wasn't flooded with cheap foreign labour by New Labour because of "poor attitude to work ". Unless of course, you think that not wanting to work for peanuts constitutes a "poor attitude to work ".
Unless of course, you think that not wanting to work for peanuts constitutes a "poor attitude to work ".
Err... yes.
I take it then, that you've got a really good attitude to work and work for **** all 5thElefant.
Good for you mate.
Well said El bent
i would LOVE it if a black or asian in the audience asked him for a big hug
and went on stage to do it - just to see him squirm
he's a vile little shit, who lives a life based on negatives and the fears of the shallow end of the gene pool - another phucking ian paisley, but without the dog collar
ordinary British people
who are exactly? what? white and a bit thick? or who were born, live and work here?
i was in dublin a while ago with a sales director. he was moaning about all the eastern european accents - 'scroungers coming there for work' - i had to point out that as an englishman, he was a foreigner, there for the same reason - plus we was uglier than the nice polish blonde serving us coffee really politely
So what about the BNP party members (including their publicity director)who claimed that Ashley Cole is not "ethnically British" and that he "came to this country" even though the footballer in question was born in London?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2009/oct/11/bbc-bnp-ashley-cole-comment-row
Is it fair to say that "ordinary British people" (for the purposes of these discussions, I'm not setting out an ideology) were born in Britain to parents who were fairly settled in Britain, basically want to work, basically want to work in Britain and are not qualified to work in high finance?
This seems like a good time to repost the mind-boggling Vice Magazine BNP article that someone dug up a while back:
http://vice.typepad.com/vice_magazine/2009/07/london-babes-of-the-bnp.html
I take it then, that you've got a really good attitude to work and work for **** all 5thElefant.
Have done, sure. I certainly wouldn't expect others to pay me for doing nothing when I'm able to work, no matter how badly paid. Which I assume is the alternative to refusing to work for **** all?
And I can't see me voting for the Nazis to get a pay rise.
Well, i agree with Ernie here (mainly). The reason that these faschist scumbags are gaining support, is because people see them as the 'only option'. I have heard of a few people saying that they will vote BNP to 'make a point' and 'what else can we do'. Whilst i would never ever vote for the BNP, or any fascist organisation, I think a point does need to be made. I dont think i can put it any better than Ernie Lynch did when he said -
'. The Labour Party has turned it's back on it's core voters, and it is no coincidence that the BNP only does well in traditional Labour territory - never in Conservative areas. New Labour has a very heavy burden of responsibility for the growth of the BNP.
Britain needs a party which puts the interests of the ordinary British people first. But not one which is fascist, racist, or homophobic.'
I do believe, that they should be given the right to go on the programme. I beleive in free speech, and think it would be wrong to ban Mr Griffin. I hope he makes a complete c0ck of himself, but i must say, i fear he wont. To be honest though, i also think that a party like that will never gain any real influence in british politics. After all, who is really british, we are a nation made up of immigrants, dating back centuries.
El-Bent:
No "bleeding heart liberals" are denying the right to freedom of speech here or anywhere else, they are merely exercising their right to free speech to point out the flaws in others political beliefs, just as you would.
Really? Is that really true?
"The BBC should not have agreed to put the BNP alongside the other democratic parties" - Peter Hain
Wilders's presence has the potential to "threaten community harmony and therefore public safety" - Jaqui Smith, on banning Wilders from entry to the country
Sounds rather like repressing someones right to free speech to me!
In Contrast - that well known right winger Peter Tatchell said the following:
"The Home Secretary is guilty of gross hypocrisy. She gives visas to demagogues who incite violence and murder, while banning from the UK a Dutch MP who has never incited violence against anyone,"
Clearly Tatchells a BNP sympathiser!
Griffin is a Cambridge educated bloke with excellent presentation skills, I doubt very much that he'll "make a cock of himself".
From Mr_Agreeable's Vice Mag link:
[i]I kind of got into it through my friend Danny. He’s really racist. Everyone calls him “Nazi Danny.” He started telling me about them, and it made a lot of sense.[/i]
Love that. Thanks for reminding us. 🙂
I think what is interesting about that is that they've found 3 people, who admittedly don't seem to be very clued up. Of those:
Rebecca doesn't know what "fascist" means and it isn't clear whether she is a fascist, although she is probably fairly described as a racist.
Jo is quite confused about a lot of things, but isn't spooked by the idea she's a fascist. She doesn't mind, and considers that people's convictions are what they are, regardless of whether they're racist. She either knows or rightly guesses that she thinks Enoch Powell is a hero, and identifies Nelson Mandela as a villain.
Helen accepts that she is a member of a fascist party, but isn't at all troubled by the label. She considers that having honest convictions is more important than what your convictions are.
These girls aren't enough of a sample, but they trouble me. They aren't going to watch QT, but equally if you, me or Griffin told them that the BNP was an overtly racist national socialist movement with a history of street violence or wotnot they'd shrug, and note that the other parties are too soft to do what's needful. They haven't so much been sold the BNP's ideas, as been sold a worldview in which the BNP's ideas make very good sense. I don't know what anyone could show them [i]about the BNP[/i] to convince them that it's a bad thing.
You'd have to show them things about Britain to convince them that the BNP was lying to them about Britain before you'd make any progress with their ideas being nasty nonsense. And they haven't got all their ideas about Britain from the BNP either. They'll have got them from basically respectable newspapers, TV etc etc as well. 😐
Tell you what mind, it would be really, really amusing for Nick Griffin to turn up on Question Time in a full on Brownshirt ensemble, complete with 'tache and combover... 😀
So, Mr pies, are you suggesting that as he was educated at cambridge, he is incapable of making a mistake? I think it has been been proven that he can make 'slip ups' and reveal himself for who he really is before...
I did say i find it unlikely he will though, i just hope he wil
No, I'm just saying that he's no intellectual knuckle dragger who can be caught out easily. Sure he could slip up but unlikely I think.
He's on CH4 now...
Is that why unemployment has shot up recently ?Britain wasn't flooded with cheap foreign labour by New Labour because of "poor attitude to work ". Unless of course, you think that not wanting to work for peanuts constitutes a "poor attitude to work ".
Er, no, its shot up because we are in a recession. And yes I do think that not being prepared to earn an honest living instead of sitting on your sovereign-ringed kappa-slappa mother-of-two arse living of a state income, ahem I mean benefits IS a poor attitude to work. Every single foreign worker I've met is perfectly happy to earn what they get paid, are glad for the work, and still maintain a comfortable lifestyle. They're not into throwing away money on status symbols such as big tv's or flash cars (or mountainbikes).
I work in the housebuilding industry, and pretty much every site manager I have spoken to commends foreign workers for their willingness to just get on with the job. If they're a brickie and it rains, they stick up a tarp and carry on working which earns them more money. The local workers will have a cup of tea and moan about their crap wages until the rain stops.