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[quote=5thElefant ]May and Brown both dealt hands they didn't have a clue what to do with
Incredibly harsh on Brown to compare him with May like that. Brown was dealt a shit hand whilst he was PM, and actually did a decent job of coping with it, at least as good a job as anybody else on that list would have done I reckon - that was actually a positive for him, it was other things which mark him down. May OTOH picked up a hand which she already knew all the cards in and proceeded to discard the high cards.
History will judge him very harshly.
It will/has.
But then again as with Thatch and Blair all political careers end in failure.
It will/has.But then again as with Thatch and Blair all political careers end in failure.
Even on his own terms, it's difficult to see what his successes were. He failed to win an election outright against a deeply unpopular prime minister, in the middle of an economic crisis. Having managed to scrape a second term against a barely credible Labour, he then stuffed it up because of a tory squabble that will now hobble the whole nation for decades, and was out the door 14 months later.
Part of that is correct....
Thatcher always devisive depending on your geographical/social/age group - i think the majority of our social woes stem from her time in office and then Blair simply hid these problems behind borrowed money.
What is consistent about all the PMs mentioned is a lack of economic strategy (please dont cite Thatcher - she just amputated the economy and ****ed off with the crutches) we are entering into a phase where this type of strategy is required to keep us afloat - which is why i worry about Brexit, i dont think any of them could run my little SME business and turn a profit.
[quote=teamhurtmore ]But then again as with Thatch and Blair all political careers end in failure.
Maybe in the modern era if we're looking at PMs and similar, but that wasn't really the case for Churchill, nor for Rhodri Morgan (just the most obvious PM from an earlier era and modern politician I thought of - I'm sure there are others).
Good job, no one is proposing.... Oh forget it 😉
Incredibly harsh on Brown to compare him with May like that. Brown was dealt a shit hand whilst he was PM, and actually did a decent job of coping with it
True. I can't get past his claim that he'd abolished boom and bust. He wasn't even pm then, but he should have been disqualified from ever being considered for the job at that moment. Utter half-wit.
economically he was great but he was not great with people or engaging so I think he is being judged on that not the financial mess which was not of his making and he did handle wellBrown was dealt a shit hand whilst he was PM, and actually did a decent job of coping with it,
she was kicked out by her own party he left as leader at the point when he chose. Not sure what you are trying to compare there could you explain?as with Thatch and Blair all political careers end in failure
ironically, despite this, her legacy is looked on better than his.
How does Cameron get no flack for Libya in this thread? urgh
They have all been self serving useless shits.
[quote=greentricky ]How does Cameron get no flack for Libya in this thread? urgh
we all expect less from the Tories 😉
Its a fair point actually
Junkyard - lazarus
Brown was dealt a shit hand whilst he was PM, and actually did a decent job of coping with it,economically he was great but he was not great with people or engaging so I think he is being judged on that not the financial mess which was not of his making and he did handle well
As chancellor, wrecking the strong economy inherited from Major, selling all our gold, abolishing tax relief on dividends in pension funds which caused a collapse of many pension schemes and the final nail in the coffin of final salary pensions. Just for starters.
Back to Major though - flaws and yet successes we should be thankful for. You could argue the Maastricht Treaty was bad, but on the other hand on signing that he was responsible for getting an opt-out on EMU, which would have otherwise forced adoption of the Euro. That proved sensible as other main flaw was signing up to the ERM as chancellor under Thatcher, and subsequently the UK crashed out of it which was his infamous Black Wednesday moment. Decision then was to stay out thanks to the opt-out, and that's one of the best things this country has done, else we'd have been dragged down with it. After that he turned the country around and rode through recession successfully, but the voters preferred Blair's charm and that brought Gordon in to make the utter mess we are in now.
If anything, the majority of praise or blame for the state of the country lies with its chancellors, not the PM.
Cameron - a true Democrat and gave us the most significant democratic moment of my lifetime.
Thatcher - did the tough things and moved the UK forward
Blair - you can't ignore Iraq (any PM would have done the same) but he delievered 13 years of Labour govrnment so has to be given credit for that
May - only been in the seat a year, delivering Brexit will push her up the list
Brown - the end of boom and bust ? Failed in his handling of the financial crises and played a material part in its creation whilst Chancellor
Major - signed Maastricht treaty, idiotic. Handed election victory to Labour
😀
It's amazing that Gordi scores so badly - have people forgotten that he saved the world singlehandedly from the global financial crises?
At least, I think that was what he said..
It's a good question.
Blair (ignoring Iraq)
Major
Thatcher
Brown
May
Until the war it did feel good when Blair was in charge, even if it wasn't financially prudent.
The outcome of some of Thatcher policies have led to deep rooted issue us this country but I'd also say without some of the reforms she introduced we would be in deeper shit. I also think she made the choices she believed in rather than for her own personal gain.
Major genuinely appears to be a nice guy, P-jays post on him is a good one.
wrecking the strong economy inherited from Major,
The sub prime market collapse did that it had nothing to do with him and it took 11 years to "wreck" it so you cannot really blame him or credit major for the preceding decade
deadkenny - MemberBack to Major though - flaws and yet successes we should be thankful for. You could argue the Maastricht Treaty was bad, but on the other hand on signing that he was responsible for getting an opt-out on EMU, which would have otherwise forced adoption of the Euro. That proved sensible as other main flaw was signing up to the ERM as chancellor under Thatcher, and subsequently the UK crashed out of it which was his infamous Black Wednesday moment. Decision then was to stay out thanks to the opt-out, and that's one of the best things this country has done, else we'd have been dragged down with it. After that he turned the country around and rode through recession successfully, but the voters preferred Blair's charm and that brought Gordon in to make the utter mess we are in now.
Major's legacy is probably the most enhanced as time goes on, IMHO, albeit you're starting from a fairly low ebb.
The tories were out of steam by 92 and he shouldn't really have won the election, and he had a lot on his plate from day one. Economy in the bin and a back bench clown circus up his ringpiece virtually non-stop for four years. Yet he managed to ride out black wednesday and get things pointed in the right direction like you say. He got buried in 97 but that wasn't down to him especially - the Tories were finished at that point in time and needed a complete rebuild.
Gordon Brown was unable to see that GDP was reducing, the trade deficit was increasing and the household debt to GDP nearly doubled under his stewardship. Where the hell did he think the money was coming from if it wasn't borrowed. Blinded by his own arrogance.
None of the above.
[quote=Junkyard ]
Brown was dealt a shit hand whilst he was PM, and actually did a decent job of coping with it,
economically he was great
That's debatable, but I don't think any other chancellor would have left the deficit in any better state - a Tory one would just have given the money away in tax cuts. Though he did actually do a decent job with the situation he got whilst PM.
but he was not great with people or engaging so I think he is being judged on that not the financial mess which was not of his making and he did handle well
Pretty much what is referring to with "it was other things which mark him down"
Very kind of you.... I sexed it up, forgive me.That's debatable,
I meant economics and spreadsheets were his strength and he handled it [as] well [as could be expected]
[quote=deadkenny ]he was responsible for getting an opt-out on EMU, which would have otherwise forced adoption of the Euro.
...
Decision then was to stay out thanks to the opt-out, and that's one of the best things this country has done, else we'd have been dragged down with it.
Well if you're going to credit Major with that, then you have to credit Brown for the 5 economic tests which continued to keep us out despite political changes which might have otherwise led us that way - it's no accident that we never have and never will meet those tests. What's more, it's slightly disingenuous to suggest that without the opt out we'd have been forced to adopt the Euro - I note that Sweden has no such opt out, and that we also neatly avoided joining ERM2 by means of bombing out of ERM!
[quote=Junkyard ]I meant economics and spreadsheets were his strength
I'm loving the praise for Gordon 😉
Good Friday Major
Good Friday Blair
big gap
brown
thatcher
everything else major
everything else Blair
big gap
may
very big gap
keep going
nearly there
almost at the the bottom
Cameron for colossal dick treading reasons explained above.
[quote=eddie11 ]may
very big gap
keep going
nearly there
almost at the the bottom
Cameron for colossal dick treading reasons explained above.
I'm still thinking that the only reason May wins that one is because she's too weak and wobbly to even make a decision like that.
.
Cameron has dick in a pig also, but that didn't really do the country any harm. Just provided chuckles.
So wish we still had Spitting Image though. Okay they were right that they all became a bigger joke than the show, but it was still a bloody good laugh.
Cameron has dick in a pig also, but that didn't really do the country any harm. Just provided chuckles.
Erm, Brexit?
Be mindful of championing Thatcher through rose tinted glasses, some of the biggest problems we're facing now are a legacy of her days in power that successive governments haven't fixed.
Housing Crisis, expensive utilities, terrible and expensive public transport, wealth through unbalanced and unsustainable housing market, war on drugs, London centric economy. She sold whatever she could get her hand onto to make a quick buck for voters then, which we’re paying back 10 fold now.
Indeed.
whatnobeer - Member
Erm, Brexit
Absolutely. He's potentially caused the greatest damage to this country since WW2 with the referendum.
But the pig stuff wasn't harm. May have swayed some votes, but majority of Brexiteers had long made up their mind.
He's potentially caused the greatest [s]damage[/s] benefit to this country since WW2 with the referendum.
FIFY
He's potentially caused the greatest [s]damage[/s] benefit to this country since WW2 with the referendum
Explain. I see a lot of uncertainty, instability etc. Not really seeing any benefit.
JAMBY HATES THE EU =- just read the statement in a Farage voice if it helps - the facts are irrelevant he thinks it will be great despite the evidence
Personally I think UKIP deserve more of the credit as the haemorrhaging of tory voters to them was the real cause not any principle on the part of dave.
Coyote we have nealry 900 pages "discussing" the topic (including usual amount of stw abuse etc)
People don't seem to focus on the economic risks of staying in, weak growth, globally uncompetitive regulatory regimes, bust currency and member states, undemocratic in fact anti-democratic, freedom of movement undermining wages, training and working conditions, failed border control, shambolic responce to migrant crises. Oh and they wamt an army !
Cameron gave US the choice as he did the Scots on Indy and for electoral reform. Brave man.
Brave man.
So brave he ****ed off when the country needed strong leadership despite promising to steer the ship regardless of the result.
including usual amount of stw abuse
Its not abuse to accurately describe someone and if you wish for others to stop calling you a liar #jambyfact then the way to do it is to stop lying* and to use actual facts rather than do it and moan that they are rude when you do it.
Camerons actons had nothing to do with bravery they were an attempt to get as many voted as he could by offering a policy he did not want to do and did not expect to be in a position to deliver on.
It was initially politically astute [ like Mays election call] but ended up with him being hoisted up by his own petard and then having to resign
Stupid is way way closer than brave. I
* they are not mistakes as when corrected you continue to say it.
Yes some people are rude to you but if you spout things that re not factually true in any environment eventually folk will be a little bit robust in the manner they address you.
As chancellor, wrecking the strong economy inherited from Major, selling all our gold, abolishing tax relief on dividends in pension funds which caused a collapse of many pension schemes and the final nail in the coffin of final salary pensions. Just for starters.
Brown actually ran a budget surplus for a while, which I think is more than the Major government managed. As for selling gold, the silly boy failed to predict the increase in value after he sold because he failed to predict 9/11. Definitely time for pitchforks.
Pensions are arguable, but the much greater damage to company schemes was done by the tories, when they effectively prevented companies from running surpluses, which meant the schemes were no longer viable the minute the economy downturned.
Brave as in a panic move because he thought he could win back UKIP defectors by promising a referendum, but assumed they'd win a significant remain. His bluff was called. Whether you're for or against, result was a disaster for him, hence jumping ship when it didn't go the way he hoped. Don't blame him for not wanting to deal with Brexit. So now we have Mrs May to pick up the mess (who also didn't back Brexit originally).
p.s. No need for the Jambabash here. Only been opinions posted here (above is just my opinion and no we won't all agree), not #jambafact 😉 . Don't care who's said what on other threads.
Major brought the National Lottery to the UK.
Lottery funding to British athletes improved our performaces at the Olympics etc.
Enormous hauls of cycling and sailing Gold medals and in many other sports was enabled due to that funding mechanism. Before lottery funding we sometimes only got one gold. Beside medals its also supported alot of infrastructure investment.
An example of a political decision hugely and positively changing the lives of others.
Coyote we have nealry 900 pages "discussing" the topic (including usual amount of stw abuse etc)
there's a reason people use #jambafact...you do realise that, right?
If people are going to haul Brown over the coals for the Gold thing, can we just bear in mind that
1. It wasn't his idea, he was acting on advise from the Treasury that gold (as a commodity) is unstable compared with long term govt bonds if you're relying on them for reserves.
2. The long term performance of the bonds that were bought with the proceeds of the sale have more or less made up the difference of "loss" of the sale of gold.
3. The auction of cellular (3g from memory) was expected to make 8bn, it made something like 25bn, more than making up for the gold sale, it's rare that it even gets a mention when people talk about Brown selling off all our gold (which he didn't).
4. At worst the Gold thing had a neutral effect.
Jim Hacker deserves a mention.
Hacker v Harriet Jones?
Apart from those two, none of the above.