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You need to change the company that you apparently keep, accusations of being anti-English or anti-British isn't how I hear Labour often described
Perhaps you're in a London bubble. Elsewhere I assure that is exactly what was being said on doorsteps when Labour were losing elections. And you can be disparaging about my friends who get drawn into this stuff all you like, but millions of Brits are. Right now. It's the dominant message on so much social media. It's based on lies, many of them hateful racist lies, but there is no need to make it easy for people spreading this stuff by political parties hiding away the flags. Waving some flags at conference is an overly simplistic, some would say patronising, approach. I would agree with that. But is it needed? Sadly, I think it is. I don't like where we are, or how we got here.
perhaps Labour should focus more on exposing the fake patriotism of divisive politicians such as Nigel Farage?
Both the LibDem and Labour conferences were absolutely dominated by "exposing the fake patriotism" of people "such as Nigel Farage", and especially the person who "is" Nigel Farage. You think that's enough to cut though? Why do you think that also including a little bit of flag waving isn't pushing back, but is giving in? I see it exactly the other way around. If the other parties hide away the flags, they are giving Reform a free ride to use them against them (and us).
We already require people to show their “papers” for many things. I’m not sure if providing a free digital ID for everyone would further embed exclusion, or help reduce it. We need to know more before making that call, I feel.Yes its a PR disaster - what they should have done was say they were going to modernise proving your NI number to cut down on fraud and nobody could really have complained. But instead they called it an ID card... They could even have pointed out that there are multiple government departments who all require you to have validated digital lDs - HMRC, Companies House and 2 different Scottish Gov schemes are just the ones I've used in the last month - all of which required me to jump through various hoops, and all of which are costing money to maintain/provide.
I don't understand why they didn't say this will be used to cut out benefit fraud and tax evasion - anyone arguing against it would then have looked like they wanted to enable those things!
Why do Tories and Reform object? First and foremost because Labour have proposed it. Especially if it is suggested as a tool in immigration - because you can't have another party trying to tackle that. Cynically if you just fought to get voter ID amidst claims it would help your party then making ID more available to people who wouldn't vote for you might not be a good idea.
If you're happy to Labour to sit back and be painted as "anti-English" or "anti-British", as they so often have been while in opposition, then go ahead and moan
Yes because waving flags around like a prick is clearly stopping that isnt it?
How about and I know this is a radical idea Labour take on the hard right anti British lot who wrap themselves in the Union Jack whilst destroying the ****ing country
Its not particularly British and definitely not English to moronically wave a flag around so to define it as patriotism is insane and something imported by the anti British right wingers from the USA.
If you allow the foreign controlled hard right press to define patriotism as waving a flag around then you have lost the argument.
Labour have to provide a better vision of what Britain is and start delivering. Not wave a flag around like a yank whilst continuing the tories slash and burn sell off.
Perhaps you're in a London bubble.
You think that the research from the UCL Policy Lab and More in Common carried out which showed that voters thought Labour was more patriotic than both the Tories and Reform UK was carried out exclusively in London?
Elsewhere I assure that is exactly what was being said on doorsteps when Labour were losing elections.
Ironic that you should talk of bubbles when you appear to be basing your argument on the apparent demographics of a certain area which you have personally experienced. I am assuming that you don't have experience of doorsteps throughout the UK, unlike pollsters.
But is it needed? Sadly, I think it is. I don't like where we are, or how we got here.
But by validating it you are clearly saying that the far-right's and Nigel Farage's tactics are correct. If Labour are correct in moronically waving little England and UK flags then so obviously are the far-right.
Unless you want to sell hypocrisy as a virtue?
But by validating it you are clearly saying that the far-right's and Nigel Farage's tactics are correct.
If you think that waving a flag is supporting Farage's tactics... well that's exactly the idea that needs to be dispelled. Because otherwise it leads to people thinking that if they want to wave a flag, then they should support Farage.
You think that the research from the UCL Policy Lab and More in Common carried out which showed that voters thought Labour was more patriotic than both the Tories and Reform UK was carried out...
...just before Labour won a majority at a General Election, while all their billboards and election material prominently featured the Union Jack.
If you think that waving a flag is supporting Farage's tactics
I can assure you that is exactly how Morgan McSweeney sees it. And I think most political pundits would agree that Sir Keir Starmer is trying to ape Nigel Farage.
just before Labour won a majority at a General Election, while all their billboards and election material prominently featured the Union Jack.
So not a problem when Labour were in opposition as you claimed. You seemed to suggest that Labour were perceived by voters to be significantly less patriotic than the Tories and Reform UK
Not only were they not perceived to be any less patriotic but they were actually perceived to be more patriotic!
So what if anything has changed in just over 12 months? Well Labour in government have ****-up big time and their support has collapsed.
Solution? The same one as Nigel Farage, in a desperate, and bound to fail, attempt to hide the fact that you have no answers to the real problems facing real people.
So not a problem when Labour were in opposition as you claimed.
**** me, you love a pointless argument.
Labour were seen as unpatriotic for years, they then changed leader, adopted a "reduce migration" policy stance (that I don't agree with) and emblazoned the Union Jack on everything (to an embarrassing degree). If you look at that UCL work in any detail, you'll see that they say that Labour being seen as the most patriotic was a huge change.
Changed Labour Party on patriotism
Starmer’s embrace of patriotic symbols such as the Union Jack has been criticized by some within his party and within the wider Labour movement. This research suggests that this criticism has had little cut through with the electorate, who see it as a signal that Labour has changed since Corbyn and that Starmer’s Labour embraces patriotism. Corbyn’s Labour Party is almost three times more likely to say it is ‘embarrassed to be British’ than Starmer’s Labour (33 per cent under Corbyn’s Labour, 13% under Starmer’s Labour).
As to the drop in support now... a lot of if it absolutely own goals... some damn stupid ones... but plenty of it is the work that's being done, especially on Social Media, to present Labour as being "anti-British" and Reform as the "Make Britain Great Again" party. If you don't want to know that's happening, or want to think it doesn't matter and doesn't need countering... that's up to you.
If Labour think waving a few flags around is going to save them they are utterly deluded. I've been thoroughly enjoying watching as Labour completely implode. My dream of seeing both main parties destroyed draws ever closer, the revolution begins.
and 2 child benefit cap is gobe finally!
My dream of seeing both main parties destroyed draws ever closer, the revolution begins.
What “revolution” are you hoping for?
What “revolution” are you hoping for?
The revolutionary idea of a government that accepts and clearly articulates people are getting poorer because the ultra-wealthy are hoarding all the money and not because people in small rubber dinghies are stealing it.
And then does something about it.
Sounds good. I wonder if billabong987 shares your aims, and importantly see the same path to achieving that. I’m going to guess not.
I was thinking more of a political revolution where both left and right leaning people have a party that actually represents their interests rather than the current weird uniparty situation.
So not a problem when Labour were in opposition as you claimed.
**** me, you love a pointless argument.
Oh the ironing !
Without providing any evidence you claim that Labour were perceived to be unpatriotic, I provide evidence to suggest that not only was that not the case 15 months ago but that voters actually considered Labour to be more patriotic than either the Tories or Reform UK, and still you are arguing the toss!
I am not basing my comment on some sort of hunch that I have, I am basing it on research carried out by University College London and a pollster whose profits are dependent on carrying out reasonably credible fieldwork.
But anyway you carry on believing that you right, and they are obviously wrong, because of something that you heard on a doorstep somewhere! 🙃
I was thinking more of a political revolution where both left and right leaning people have a party that actually represents their interests rather than the current weird uniparty situation.
So Reform UK will lead this "revolution"?
Ah, yes, Nigel Farage......... public school educated, City of London commodity trader, bankrolled by billionaires, and man of the people!
What could possibly go wrong??
for all the cynicism (ok thats proper alan partridge stuff)
i do get the sentiment, Im a cub leader
with a full time job, a long commute, young kids, thats a big committment of my time I volunteer, if anything makes me feel British?! its that
Ah yes, cutting the half time orange... Eh? Lol!
re the 1/2 time orange
i think the point is that its a job a volunteer does with his Sunday morning (my brother helps run his kids youth team and they still have oranges at half time)
Without providing any evidence you claim that Labour were perceived to be unpatriotic, I provide evidence to suggest that not only was that not the case 15 months ago but that voters actually considered Labour to be more patriotic than either the Tories or Reform UK, and still you are arguing the toss!
Sigh. It was not the case 15 months ago, when Labour were about to win a majority government. It was the case (read the UCL analysis) previously, when Labour lost several elections. That’s the whole bloody point.
Sigh. It was not the case 15 months ago, when Labour were about to win a majority government
Sigh. Yes it was the case 15 months ago.
Insight
15 June 2024
New research from the UCL Policy Lab and More in Common finds the importance voters put on the patriotism of their political leaders in the lead up to the general election. The research finds:
Tories lagging behind on patriotism
Labour currently lead the Conservatives as the party most likely to say they are proud to be British. Two in five (40 per cent) say that Starmer’s Labour Party is proud to be British, compared to less than a quarter (24 per cent) who hold the same view about Sunak’s Conservatives. Starmer’s Labour also comes ahead of Nigel Farages’s Reform UK Party on being proud to be British.
Labour was not seen by voters as less patriotic 15 months ago.
So what has changed.......why now the need to start waving little England flags at Labour Conference?
The answer is obvious, the current Labour government has ****ed up big time and most voters now accept the undeniable truth - Labour doesn't have the answers to deal with the real issues which effect their lives.
So time to rely on the time-honoured tradition of politically bankrupted politicians with no answers.....start waving flags.
Donald Trump, Nigel Farage, Sir Keir Starmer, they all know that flags provide the modesty required to cover the naked truth that they have nothing else significant to offer.
Some interesting stuff :
re the 1/2 time orange
i think the point is that its a job a volunteer does with his Sunday morning (my brother helps run his kids youth team and they still have oranges at half time)
It's definitely very admirable and people should definitely be acknowledged and celebrated but when I read about that particular section of his speech my immediate thought was this (for those uncultured enough not to have got the reference):
and they don't even have the excuse of being the Shad-cab anymore.
Labour were seen 24 months ago as offering solutions - that's where they've gone wrong. Trading that for flags and daft economics/lies was so clearly going to make a mess of their pretend majority.
I remember 2-3 years ago suggesting they become a bit more flaggy - it was met with derision. Yeah okay.
Flags on their own = people will see through it
Flags with good left policies = might just work.
Starmer delivered a half-decent speech yesterday - trouble is he means and understands none of what he was saying. And no one cares. Centrists also told me conferences were irrelevent a few years ago.
Literally all eyes on the budget - Reeves' Titanic.
(the idea of back-stopping JLR with a big loan - when Tata has revenue of $180bn and profit of $13Bn - is just plain socialising the losses. So it's 'lending' the equivalent of what they might have *saved with WFA cuts to a profit making parent company. That's how stupid the government is. )
*Governments don't save but just to make a point.
Maybe just maybe -like the Chinese government are doing - you invest in your own infrastructure and production? Chinese EVs are going to slaughter the europeans, particularly the creaking German economy.
Flags on their own = people will see through it
Flags with good left policies = might just work.
Yup, there is nothing wrong with the concept of being patriotic, in fact it is vital in a society which puts the interests of people first.
Personally I believe that the union flag should be flown over every state school, NHS hospital, nationalised railway station, and any other state asset which belongs to the people. To instill a sense of pride, community and belonging, and ownership.
To wave a little flag moronically, or to drape yourself in one, or to surround yourself with flags, to create and emphasis division and feed bigotry, as the far/hard-right do, is not something which anyone who claims to be left-wing and progressive should be doing.
Gotta to say though, I'm not sure what I looks more pathetic imo, people who go around attaching flags on lampposts and other public places, or people who feel "offended" by flags and quickly go around taking them down.
They are just flags, use them appropriately.
Saw a great clip of Starmer calling out Reform, and then saw a headline that he wants international law changing to help deal with migration.
What a useless, spineless idiot. Pick a side and make a stand. For once.
Personally I believe that the union flag should be flown over every state school, NHS hospital, nationalised railway station, and any other state asset which belongs to the people. To instill a sense of pride, community and belonging, and ownership.
despite the fact to a significant % of the population the Union flag is offensive? Half the population of Scotland. wales and NI. Or do you mean just in England?
No I mean the whole of the UK. It's the national flag of the UK so should be flown in all parts of the UK, even if some people are offended.
Sigh. Yes it was the case 15 months ago.
What was?
any other state asset which belongs to the people. To instill a sense of pride, community and belonging, and ownership.
If the idea is that it shows people what the state owns, would you stop privately owned buildings from flying the flag?
https://order-order.com/2025/09/30/labour-cancels-owen-jones-party-conference-pass/
“We have a responsibility to safeguard all our delegates, staff, volunteers, and visitors, and to maintain a safe and welcoming environment for everyone at conference. After careful consideration, we’ve concluded that we cannot continue your attendance while ensuring we meet our safeguarding obligations to all attendees. We hope you’ll understand that this decision was made with everyone’s wellbeing in mind"
I am not sure if that makes Owen Jones sound like a sexual predator or some sort of terrorist.
What's his position on Palestine Action?
Whatever the answer Morgan McSweeney clearly thinks that Owen Jones is dangerous and that the Labour Conference should be protected from him.
despite the fact to a significant % of the population the Union flag is offensive? Half the population of Scotland. wales and NI. Or do you mean just in England?
Yawn. Scotland voted to remain in the union. If we'd driven the tanks in and kept them in the union against their will I would agree with you, but we didn't.
If the idea is that it shows people what the state owns, would you stop privately owned buildings from flying the flag?
No of course not. Flying a flag above a state school, NHS hospital, or railway station, would simply emphasis that these are assets which belong to the nation, ie nationalised, it obviously wouldn't mean that no one else would be allowed to fly the flag!
simply emphasis that these are assets which belong to the nation, ie nationalised, it obviously wouldn't mean that no one else would be allowed to fly flag
Well, it doesn't work then, does it.
Anyway... avoid the comments on that Guide Fawkes piece... full of the usual homophobia.
Read Owen Jones' own account instead:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/sep/30/keir-starmer-labour-conference-pass-revoked
Personally I believe that the union flag should be flown over every state school, NHS hospital, nationalised railway station, and any other state asset which belongs to the people. To instill a sense of pride, community and belonging, and ownership.
Mate, you need a lot more than a flag to deliver those things ffs. Without anything to really be proud of and feel a part of, the flag just looks like an empty gesture and will only make things worse.
Well, it doesn't work then, does it.
What do you mean "it doesn't work'? When was the last time you saw the union flag flying over a state owned railway station?
The union flag should be seen as a symbol of community, belonging, and ownership, when was the last time you saw it used in that way?
The last time I saw it being used in any way was by grown adults who had been told to wave miniature versions when a deeply unpopular Prime Minister stood before them as he desperately tried to rescue his failing political career.
A scene which was cringe-inducingly embarrassing!
Lot of English people saying English things on the thread this morning.
Personally I'd prefer it if every day didn't have to feel like I'd accidently stumbled into an Orange march but if you reckon Scotland and NI would do better with a bit of English (sorry, that should be UK) national pride then I guess we can't stop you. It's your country, after all.
Yawn. Scotland voted to remain in the union. If we'd driven the tanks in and kept them in the union against their will I would agree with you, but we didn't.
So what? You just show your ignorance of how the union flag or Butchers apron is seen by a significant % of the UK population not just in Scotland but also in Wales and NI
In the other three countries of the UK mandating flying the union flag would be seen as divisive
No I mean the whole of the UK. It's the national flag of the UK so should be flown in all parts of the UK, even if some people are offended.
so you want to do something that would be seen as divisive and would be offensive to a section of the UK population? Can you not see3 how counterproductive this would be?
Read up on "the butchers apron".
I would gently point out to Nigel Farage and others that before we left the EU, we had a returns agreement with every country in the EU. And he told the country it will make no difference if we left. Well, he was wrong about that. These are Farage boats, in many senses, that are coming across the channel.
I love the term 'Farage Boats' about time this was said
"Why is Starmer obsessed with Farage?" seems to be the headline everywhere. It's one way to counter Labour trying to take the fight to Reform I suppose.
The union flag should be seen as a symbol of community, belonging, and ownership, when was the last time you saw it used in that way?
Should it? Why? Why would forcing people to fly it change that? A flag is a symbol of everything it has been used for in the past, not what you want it to be right now.
We have a healthy level of devolution and local administration across the UK (could do with more IHMO), including in England. There's no need for the UK government to be mandating flag flying... leave that to the elected administrations that look after the buildings.
What do you mean "it doesn't work'?
I mean, you can't use a flag to signify state ownership if it can be flown on private buildings.
seems to be the headline everywhere. It's one way to counter Labour trying to take the fight to Reform I suppose
Will just encourage their voters to back Farage even more.
They can't win like this unless they point out Farage's enthusiasm for private capital, free markets, de-regulation and trickle-down.
"Oh dear on that then."
They can't win like this unless they point out Farage's enthusiasm for private capital, free markets, de-regulation and trickle-down.
That is where it becomes difficult as Labour are now not so much against that as they used to be/should be.
despite the fact to a significant % of the population the Union flag is offensive? Half the population of Scotland. wales and NI. Or do you mean just in England?
Come off it. Half the population of Scotland and Wales do not see the union jack as "offensive". There is a certain proportion of people in Scotland who would like independence (and a smaller proportion in Wales), but that doesn't mean they're reacting like vampires to garlic when they see the union jack.
I don't think more flags are the solution to any pressing problem.
Why would forcing people to fly it change that?
So now we are talking about "forcing" people to fly the flag. Wow. How did we get there?
Gotta say I am bemused how some people appear to get so offended by the sight of the UK's state flag, I wonder how many other countries have a similar problem?
Still for some people getting offended over trivial issues is an important part of their political being.
Personally I believe that the union flag should be flown over every state school, NHS hospital, nationalised railway station, and any other state asset which belongs to the people. To instill a sense of pride, community and belonging, and ownership.
Good trolling
Gotta say I am bemused how some people appear to get so offended by the sight of the UK's state flag, I wonder how many other countries have a similar problem?
Still for some people getting offended over trivial issues is an important part of their political being.
Im not offended. I am a brit. However I do understand how divisive this would be in Scotland NI and I assume wales ( tho Wales does not have the sectarianism of course)
Good trolling
It's probably easier to just say that you don't agree. Although I appreciate that it puts pressure on the need to explain why you don't agree.
Accusing someone of trolling appears to be the preferred choice of those who are unable to provide their own argument
Owen Jones at the Labour Conference.
You can just tell by Lord Mardi Mann's (my old MP - Tosser) and Akehursts's demeanor how far they want to go to protect their fanatisism, and bury everyone else's voice. Literally taking the mic away.
These people know they are wrong. That's what comes across
This is great Journalism - not the Sunday Morning cosy shite we get which does nothing to forward democracy but proper taken to the cleaners.
You know how bad things are when Michael Gove admits failures of neoliberalism.
Jones was banned from the conference over 'safe-guarding' issues.
As far as I know he's never been banned before.
https://twitter.com/rivkahbrown/status/1973332772132720713?t=RrdWdk2l4wNpZGa5jjPvtQ&s=19
So now we are talking about "forcing" people to fly the flag. Wow. How did we get there?
You said it should be flown over government buildings? That means compulsion, doesn't it?
Gotta say I am bemused how some people appear to get so offended by the sight of the UK's state flag, I wonder how many other countries have a similar problem?
I have to say ernie, you do the whole innocent bemusement act very well.
And then you get to be offended because people just call you out rather than playing your game. "Why aren't you explaining to me why the union jack might be considered offensive in NI and Scotland? I'm bemused!"
Playing the victim is always a good strategy to win the internet.
Personally I prefer to do my shitposting on reddit but each to their own, I guess.
Preference has never been much cop as a preventative measure/LOL RU SURE?
I have to say ernie, you do the whole innocent bemusement act very well. [Mod edit]
Sorry who are these [removed] that I am supposedly winding up because I don't go along with the pathetic liberal lefty/SWP bollocks about getting wound up by the sight of the union flag?
There is nothing wrong with the union flag, just use appropriately, don't drape yourself in it or wave about miniature versions of it like some sort of deranged halfwit 💡
Edit : Btw when did bemused become "offended"?
I leave being offended to other people who are much better at it than me 🙃
[ I can't follow this edited thread at all now, it's all gone a bit weird ]
Sorry, you're going to have to work on your subtlety if you want me to bite. Others might so you just crack on with 'wondering' why people in NI or the West of Scotland might get offended if every public building suddenly sprouted union jacks.
[ I can't follow this edited thread at all now, it's all gone a bit weird ]
Sorry, my fault. I used offensive terms for Scottish and Irish people which I didn't think were that offensive but happy to be corrected.
[ I can't follow this edited thread at all now, it's all gone a bit weird ]
Unacceptable terms were used to describe non-English Brits, they were deleted.
Unacceptable in polite company I mean.
non-English Brits
hmm, you just won't stop trying will you*.
I'm sure everyone in Dublin would love to hear more about how they are non-English Brits.
*While I'm sure this was simply an honest mistake on your part I'm also aware of how you simply can't ever admit to mis-speaking so I'm just making this post as I'm curious to see how you are going to take a commonly accepted derogatory term for Irish people and try to convince us it only refers to the residents of NI who hold British passports.
Anyway, I'll try to stop talking about this now as I know you only brought up the flag thing to amuse yourself and it's amusing to me now but I'm aware it's probably not amusing for everyone else.
non-English Brits
hmm, you just won't stop trying will you*.
I'm sure everyone in Dublin would love to hear more about how they are non-English Brits.
Oh ffs what on earth is wrong with you?!? 🤣
I have no idea why the term "non-English Brit" should be a problem or what it has to do with Dublin!
I have suggested flying the union flag in the UK, I haven't said anything about Ireland. Obviously.
Anyway, I'll try to stop talking about this now
What a good idea....
Can we have a lists of do's and don't with the flag please. Im worried about being a deranged halfwit
I have suggested flying the union flag in the UK, I haven't said anything about Ireland. Obviously.
The UK and Ireland, and their people, overlap. Obviously.
Sorry, can't resist.
I used a derogatory term for Irish people.
You said it was it was a term used to describe non-English Brits. Therefore, you were saying Irish people are non-English Brits.
I know it was a slip but I also know you can't admit to any kind of mistake so I just want to see how you manage to explain how it wasn't a mistake and Irish people are, in fact, non-English Brits.
So, flag shagging aside, predictions on which demographic is going to get shafted by the tax rises in the autumn budget?
I think we can rule out multinational companies, offshored individuals and politicians... Other than that it seems like it's going to be be a spin of the wheel..
Place your bets!
Irish people are, in fact, non-English Brits.
It's you that brought up the Irish in the moderated post, not me. And the Scottish, although bizarrely not the Welsh. I am suggesting that it's okay to fly the union flag in the United Kingdom, that's all, it's not complicated
Can we have a lists of do's and don't with the flag please. Im worried about being a deranged halfwit
Not following the thread? Let me help you, from the top of this page....
Personally I believe that the union flag should be flown over every state school, NHS hospital, nationalised railway station, and any other state asset which belongs to the people. To instill a sense of pride, community and belonging, and ownership.
To wave a little flag moronically, or to drape yourself in one, or to surround yourself with flags, to create and emphasis division and feed bigotry, as the far/hard-right do, is not something which anyone who claims to be left-wing and progressive should be doing.
Gotta to say though, I'm not sure what I looks more pathetic imo, people who go around attaching flags on lampposts and other public places, or people who feel "offended" by flags and quickly go around taking them down.
They are just flags, use them appropriately.
Good trolling
It's probably easier to just say that you don't agree. Although I appreciate that it puts pressure on the need to explain why you don't agree.
Accusing someone of trolling appears to be the preferred choice of those who are unable to provide their own argument
😃
It's you that brought up the Irish in the moderated post, not me. And the Scottish, although bizarrely not the Welsh. I am suggesting that it's okay to fly the union flag in the United Kingdom, that's all, it's not complicated
That it's OK to fly the union flag in the United Kingdom is not the only think you are suggesting You also also suggesting Irish people are 'non-English Brits'. That you don't just include the people of NI as your 'non-English Brits' but the entire island is a particularly nice touch.
You're also desperately trying to throw the Welsh into the mix now (not sure if there is much sectarianism in Wales) because you really really don't want to admit you mis-spoke.
Most people would be able to go, 'Oops, I made a mistake' but not you. I feel like I'm kind of torturing you now because you have quite clearly made a mistake and I keep pointing it out but you physically don't seem to be capable of admitting it was a brain fart.
I know this all started because you were trolling us with you flag thing but now I'm starting to feel like I'm the one trolling you by simply pointing out a small mistake you made.
To wave a little flag moronically,
im still struggling with what sort of waving counts as moronically. Is there a clever way I should be doing it?
They are just flags, use them appropriately.
Using what is seen as sectarian symbols is not appropriate in some places. Using the butchers apron is not appropriate in some places. happy to help
You see it as a sectarian symbol, I see it as the flag of the United Kingdom. My view is aligned with most people's, yours isn't. Happy to help.
Considering the fact you see the UK and Ireland as consisting of English Brits and non-English Brits I can see why you would not see a problem. And yes, probably the majority of the population of England's views align with yours.
Anyway, Bob Vylan provide guidance on how not to wave a flag moronically:
I actually see it as a symbol of a genocidal regime
It IS a secatarian symbol in some places
Considering the fact you see the UK and Ireland as consisting of English Brits and non-English Brits I can see why you would not see a problem.
I have no idea what you are on about, yes I consider some British people not to be English, it never occurred to me that might be a problem for anyone. I am obviously treading on some sort of woke midfield which you have decided to invent.
I actually used the term "non-English Brits" when explaining to Kelvin why your post had been moderated because I simply thought that it was the easiest way to describe it.
I also pointed out that the terms you used would only be a problem in polite company, in attempt to play down their offensiveness, I wish I'd never bothered!🤣
Wait, do you actually think Irish people are British?
