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Yep, the Labour Party is definitely no more (some of us knew that before the election). If the Lib Dems had won would anything have been any different as I can't see them doing anything worse. The real choices for people are now a much less left wing Labour Party, a Lib Dem party the same as Labour, a more right wing tory party and Reform. Are we now the US?
Are we now the US?
The UK has always closely followed political trends in the US. The only thing that counteracted the pressure to move rightwards was the leftwing of the labout party. Starmer got rid of that with the active and enthusiastic support of c*ntrist labour members and MPs. We now have a government and political establishment which is entirely in hoc to capital, to the point where they're now seriously talking about dismantling democratic processes to enable the building of new airports and housing estates. We can't have new hospitals though, because they're too expensive. And we're going to be persecuting benefits claimants while letting non-doms off the hook. Thatcher would be proud.
I agree with you there Ernie, I perhaps mean the Starmer bit of The Government, it may be a while but when people realise that they’ll have even less input into a democratic planning process there may be a groundswell of public opinion that the Labour party can’t ignore. Yes, reform/tories will benefit at the local elections and at the next general election….. the Westminster bubble will be blamed again - a view to which unfortunately is easy to understand. The housing minister Mr Poppycock and Mr Starmer’s Government should be using their huge majority wisely, it’s probably the last hope for the good of the people who live in the UK.
A list of stuff the majority of people couldn't care less about. Of course the government are doing loads of little things they are not just sitting on their hands for 5 years.
The UK has always closely followed political trends in the US.
I am not sure that is entirely true. Ronald Reagan actually followed the example of Margret Thatcher in privatisation, deregulation, and tax cuts, the foundations of neoliberalism.
And only last year the UK swung very slightly to the left whilst in contrast the United States states swung slightly to the right.
I think it is more a case of both countries reflecting similar crises in Western economic models with perhaps similar political consequences.
Interestingly during the economic chaos of the 1930s Europe mostly swung to the right and yet the United States which was experiencing similar economic issues bucked the trend and swung to the left.
And only last year the UK swung very slightly to the left whilst in contrast the United States states swung slightly to the right.
Is that true? (genuinely ...). The US elected a more RW president and the UK a more LW PM, but wasn't that just a function of the incompetents who they were running against?
The Netherlands government is not to the right of the Tories.
After the far right won the most votes, it’s now also a powerful force in the Dutch government.
And then there’s the PVV, in particular: Marjolein Faber, the new migration minister, is already one of the most controversial people in the new Cabinet (despite being the second choice). Even PVV insiders see her as a hard-liner.
She’s most famous for referencing the “great replacement theory” in a speech — the claim promoted by the Nazis and carried forward by white supremacists that there is a conspiracy to replace Europe’s white population.
If the Tories were this right-wing there would be no point in Reform UK.
It is PVV policy to ban all immigration from Muslim countries and ban the construction of all new mosques. Show me similar policies in the Tory Party.
One part of a coalition. Not the government. Thats the difference and i am sure some of those views are available in the tory party.
The Netherlands has a cobbled together coalition some parts if which are a little to the right if the Tories. The government is not hard right overall and Wilders has been frozen out of being pm by the more moderate right in the coalition
Of course it's the government, it's not the opposition, she's the immigration minister.
Wilders has been frozen out of being pm by the more moderate right in the coalition
So what's your explanation for this ?
"Even PVV insiders see her as a hard-liner."
i am sure some of those views are available in the tory party.
It's not just "views". It is the policy of one of the parties in the Dutch government to ban the Koran, building new mosques, and immigration from Muslim countries. That is even more right-wing and extreme than Reform UK, never mind the Tories. This is BNP territory.
Until the Tories enter into a coalition with the BNP and we have BNP immigration ministers I think MSP's claim that the Dutch government is to the right of the Tories is perfectly valid.
Do you want to claim that it is to the left of the Tories?
The VVD, the other main coalition partner, are free market liberals which many would describe as a characteristic of the right of Tory Party, whilst the Christian Democrats who until recently (with their predecessors) were the dominant force in post War Dutch politics would share much in common with one nation Tories. The Christian Democrats have been almost wiped out and only have 5 seats. I would say it is more than a stretch to describe the current government as to the left of the Tories, but that is hardly a surprise. It is however wrong to suggest we lead the way with Brexit, Pim Fortuyn achieved a breakthrough in early 2000s and it was only not maintained because he was assassinated and his party became rudderless. Gert Wilders eventually took over his mantle but has none of Fortuyn's charisma.
That all sounds pretty good to me on the surface... but that doesn't get headlines and clicks.
Ernie.
Do you not understand how coalitions work? Policy of one party in a coalition is not the same as government policy
What you claim is not dutch government policy
You have a fantasy of the EU that is no more real than the gammons British fantasy of Cotswold cottages and spitfires over the white cliffs of dover.
Exactly the same things has happened in the EU over the past 10+ years as has happened in the UK. The far right has taken a strong foothold across Europe, in several countries it has become the leading political force. The parties of the traditional centre have continued to concede ground to the right instead of fighting back. Housing has become unaffordable for many/most across all the major economies, health service funding is being eroded by profiteering corporate interests, there are shortages of doctors and nurses throughout the EU, My GP in Germany has been involved in several national strikes over the past 12 months.
Any growth from re-entering the EU would not "trickle down" to 95% of the population. Remember that phrase, that we all know is absolute bullshit right wing propaganda, that when the tories were in power the centists used to post pictures of laughing tories whenever it was mentioned, that is what you are basing your fantasy of the EU being a cure for the UK ills on. Growth across the EU is not tricking down, it is inflating assets far faster than wage growth and taking ownership away from working people, that means unaffordable housing and ever decreasing pensions. And while the wallets of the wealthy swell, and the wallets of the working population become empty and threadbare the mantra of the centre is the same as the UK "who will pay for it" and that picture of laughing tories has never been more appropriate.
The biggest problem in the UK and Europe is resisting the oligarchy driven push to an even more extreme neoliberalism, and neither are resisting. Growth, private enterprise and finance, austerity have become the catch phrases of the old parties of the left who have lost their links to and abandoned the working masses to serve the financial elite. The changes to the UK over the past 10 years are not unique, they are unfortunately representative of what has happened in the whole of Europe.
I do not have a fantasy. SMEs in scotland have collapsed dince brexit. All those EU nurse we used to no longer come. Scottish hospitality is totally struggling for staff. Economic losses are huge.
Yes the EU is not perfect but leaving it has caused tremendous damage. Rejoin would mimimise that damage.
Also the rar right have made much less advances in most of the EU than in the UK
The EU is short of nurses, estimate put that shortage at around 1.2 million more needed.
How the **** do you think that the UK is going to recruited nurses from an already depleted workforce without offering materially better conditions? The UK has to fix the distribution of wealth first and make sure that working people like medical staff are paid properly for the work they do. If the conditions are so much worse in the UK than they are in the EU, then rejoining would more likely cause to more medical staff moving in the opposite direction.
And then there is of course the moral maze of stripping poorer countries of their desperately needed human resources in a vital sector, are you happy to put that morality aside?
Spain trains far more nurses than thete are jobs for in Spain They used to come to the uk in the thousands. Now they go to Germany instead.
Onstead of those spanish nurses who couldn't get jobs in Spain we are now stripping asian contries of nurses.
Honestly that post of yours is so far from the truth its in another reality
So whst about the rest of it. Greedom of movement brnefitted us hugely as upung folk came to Scotland on gsps years to eotk in hospitality. Or all thd small foid producers who lost their export markets wirh the job losses that entails
Brexit has been a social and economic disaster
Neoliberalism has become a social and economic disaster for the masses, brexit was a symptom, reversing brexit does not solve the problems, it is at best neutral to fixing the problems. SME are suffering across Europe as the power has shifted (supported by the politicians) to the big corporations and they are further eroding the restriction on big business at the cost of SME's. It is estimated that around 25000 SME's will close this year in Germany.
We need better condition for everyone, not just the continued flood up economics we are all currently suffering. We need fairer distribution of wealth not environmentally damaging growth, we need the freedom of movement to be an opportunity for all, not a mechanism for stripping poorer countries of their essential workers to feed low pay and conditions in richer countries.
Re-joining the EU would be a good thing if these problems can be fixed on both sides, but currently they are getting worse on both sides, the biggest problem is oligarchy driven neoliberal agenda, and that is becoming an emergency that far outstrips membership of the EU, that is no more tackling the emergency any better than the UK, the US or the rest of the world.
Spain trains far more nurses than thete are jobs for in Spain They used to come to the uk in the thousands. Now they go to Germany instead.
One country is training more nurses than they need, we should learn from them, but that also indicates that Germany and the rest of the EU has the same problem as the UK, that they are not making nursing an attractive enough career, maybe just maybe the answer is not to hope that other country's are suffering even worse poverty and material conditions that they are forced to move to the UK or Germany.
Teversing Brexit would solve a lot of the staffing issues in the nhs and in highland hospitality . It would bring back the markets for those small food pr6ducers. It would give us a bigger pie to share.
You have it the wrong way round. Rejoining would give an immediate large economic boost.
What MSP said.
Investment across the board would great thanks. But it needs to come from the UK at the outset.
This government has got that messed up in the pursuit of any growth at all costs and is willing to do anything bar the one thing that could begin to fix a) growth as a consequence of things that are necessary for society via spending b) the decline and inequality, and worse excesses of Neolibralism - to invest in its own capacity.
So who do we all vote for?
Not the conservatives/reform, obvioulsy.
Not labour as they are (checks notes) Conservatives?
So logic would dictate we all vote lib dem.
Well, that was nice and easy. Problem solved.
So who do we all vote for?
Not the conservatives/reform, obvioulsy.
Not labour as they are (checks notes) Conservatives?
So logic would dictate we all vote lib dem.
Well, that was nice and easy. Problem solved.
I thought the Libdems were just 'orange conservatives', though?
I think we're supposed to vote green - at least until they're significant enough to annoy the usual suspects. Then, I suppose it is the Socialist Workers Party...
So who do we all vote for?
I genuinely don't know, but as the next election is 4 years away, maybe we could actually put some pressure on labour to work for the people instead of the oligarchs and corporations, or we could just smugly deny the problem exists, repeat the oligarchs chorus that we can't afford to fix the problems, and throw in a few monty python pictures for good measure, and don't forget to attack the left as they must be responsible for the problems, as the usual suspects do.
I think we’re supposed to vote green – at least until they’re significant enough to annoy the usual suspects.
IMO you have hit the nail on the head probably more than you actually realise Danny. If there were a general election tomorrow I would back the Green Party.
Not simply because they are a leftie social democratic party similar to what Labour was before the advent of New Labour but because they have one huge redeeming quality that none of the main UK political parties share.
And that one redeeming quality is that for very obvious reasons they do not attract self-serving careerists. People like Tony Blair, Nick Clegg, and Keir Starmer, who want to further their personal careers won't touch the Green Party - there are no such thing as safe Green seats.
Obviously if and as the Green Party's popularity increases that redeeming quality is likely to diminish but currently they are still attracting people with actual convictions.
How the future pans out for them depends on how democratic in their structures remain. In contrast the Labour Party has abandoned its democratic structures and it is now custom built for self-serving careerists.
Are you an ambitious barrister who wants to broaden their horizons and enter politics? Have a quiet word with Sir Keir Starmer or one of his team at a drinks party and I am sure they will sort you out a seat somewhere where you can be parachuted in, in defiance of the local party. A lucrative Cabinet position with all the indispensable post-politics contacts you need awaits you.
Comrade Ernesto - Your idea of how you end up as a Labour candidate to become an MP is about as far detached from the reality as it’s possible to get.
Barristers going to drinks parties and getting the nod? Seriously… What planet are you on?
We selected our local candidate by the members of the local party having a meeting to listen to their pitches, then voting for which of the candidates we felt should represent the constituency. They were all people who were known as they had worked in such glamorous roles as local councillors etc
I’d love to tell you it was a stately home where we all nibbled canapés and sipped New Zealand Sauvignon Blanc but it was in a side-room at the local baths, where coffees and monster munch were available from the vending machines in the foyer if you fancied it.
You should maybe try taking off your tinfoil helmet and engaging with reality, rather than the fantasy world you appear to inhabit
Well, 2 of us have just given our versions of how Labour candidates are apparently selected.
One is based on fact and very recent experience, one based on god only knows what, as it amounts to a load of fact-free utter and complete twoddle
On the Labour side there are angry accusations that Sir Keir Starmer is parachuting in so-called Starmtroopers and "purging" left-wingers.
Labour doesn't bother with the niceties. The party's National Executive Committee will meet on Tuesday and decide who will or will not stand for the party in this election. Starmer supporters now command a majority on the NEC.
There are around 100 seats with prospective parliamentary candidates (PPCs) still in need of final approval by the NEC.
Most of these are likely to be waved through. It is rare to exclude candidates in good standing. But it is within the rules.
The handful of seats, most valued by the leadership, are those where they can parachute in their own people.
Since the general election was called 11 Labour MPs have announced they are standing down - starting with Kelly Lynch in Halifax and Yvonne Fovargue in Makerfield.
They are mostly giving up safe or highly winnable seats. Those who hold off and delay quitting until the leadership can decide who replaces them are often rewarded with peerages or other jobs outside the Commons.
Starmer and his closest advisers have wasted no time shepherding their allies into last minute vacancies.
Key members of the next generation of Labour MPs are being chosen effectively by two insiders, Morgan McSweeney, Labour’s campaign manager and Matthew Faulding, the secretary of the Parliamentary Labour Party.
Leading Starmtroopers Josh Simons, director of the Labour Together think tank and Luke Akehurst, secretary of Labour First and director of We Believe in Israel networks have been dropped into Makerfield and North Durham, respectively.
The leadership is flexing its influence over the final few outstanding constituency selections.
That's your particular experience though Binz. Do you think that situations comparible to the one Ernie outlined don't happen?
Oh hang on a minute…. I should know better than to use personal experience and actual facts on the latest thread dedicated to pointing out that Keir Starmer is in fact the antichrist
I now understand that facts are no competition for made up sensationalist claptrap, so go with that if you like
We are in the post-truth world, after all, and it appears that isn’t exclusively the reserve of the right
I'll take that as a no then
‘Starmtroopers’?
Honestly… get a grip
Have a word with Sky News, they used the term not me.
And have a word with yourself too if you believe that the main UK political parties don't attract self-serving careerists, something which goes to the very heart of voter dissatisfaction.
I don't really know the selection process for the LibDems but it is clear that both the Tories and the Labour parties are tailor made for self-serving careerists, neither have robust democratic structures.
the main UK political parties don’t attract self-serving careerists
I imagine they also attract people who genuinely want to make a difference politically so however much their ideology might be aligned with the Greens they know that unless something fundamental changes in the voting system being a green candidate is about as much use as post bombing threads on here for affecting actual change.
All main parties maintain ultimate control over their candidates, and even then wronguns slip through. If the parties allowed the local party to have complete control they wouldn't be acting very resposnibily.
I really think, as good as changing to some form of proportional representation would be, political financing is a much much bigger problem to the representation that we have.
And a question for the Starmer supporters, do you think that what labour is currently doing is enough to stop the oligarchs domination of the political landscape, as we have seen in the US, from happening here now that they have clearly set the sights on the UK and Europe?
And would you not think that the cost of doing more to help the material lives of the electorate, even if you think that would be a mistake in a more normalised political landscape, is far far better than allowing an oligarchy promoted far right party gaining power and dismantling the rather precarious democracy we have?
That’s your particular experience though Binz.
Same in my seat. In which seats did these votes of members not happen? Our new MP was also a local councillor. Went to our local secondary school. Supported by all three of the biggest UK unions. No "so-called" "Starmtroppers" being "parachuted in" to be seen amongst the candidates we heard speak at the hustings. You'd hope the party leadership does take an interest in who gets to take part in these local selections though... MPs may well represent their local party members, and their local voters, and their local community... but they also have national duties to perform, and the parliamentary party has a job to do for all us (whether we live in seats that voted Labour or not). Multiple repeats of what happened in Sheffield Hallam in 2017 has to be avoided.
Our new MP was also a local councillor. Went to our local secondary school. Supported by all three of the biggest UK unions.
That may be so but we probably both know that the only reason he was allowed to remain as candidate was because he was very careful not to criticise or question the leadership or speak against centralised labour party policy. Had he done any of that (and I believe he's a lot more 'left' than his public persona lets on) he'd have been dumped in a second in favour of some snot-nosed spad.
He spoke against "against centralised labour party policy" at the hustings. Although I'd characterise it more as "beyond" those policies.
If the parties allowed the local party to have complete control they wouldn’t be acting very resposnibily.
"Complete control" ? Did you read the Sky News article which I referenced? The issue isn't local parties not having "complete control". But then I think you probably knew that.
I'm loving the punters on here who deny that politics attracts self-serving careerists, with the vitriol which some direct at politicians on stw, and yes particularly the picture poster, who knew that everyone who enters politics does so with selfless and honourable intentions?!?
Anyway I'm sticking to my claim that the Green Party does not currently attract self-serving careerists, and instead people who overwhelmingly have strong convictions and commitments.
Btw ignore the widely believed claim that "all politicians are in it for themselves" at your peril. It might not be 100% true but to deny there is even a problem is likely to have significant electoral consequences in 2029.
Throughout the Western democracies faith in mainstream politicians is collapsing, and not without reason, the result isn't always pretty.