Forum menu
The population of this country is largely (last time I looked it was still at about 70%) opposed to mass immigration, so that's that workforce gone
I accept that racist might like to claim otherwise but the UK has never experienced "mass" immigration. Here is the definition of mass immigration :
If you are going to ask a loaded question which doesn't reflect reality expect an answer which equally doesn't reflect reality. If I was asked if I supported mass immigration into the UK I would answer "no", despite being an immigrant myself.
Ask a sensible question which reflects reality, eg "do believe that immigration into the UK has had a positive effect?" and you get a sensible answer :
And I have no idea what "that's that workforce gone" means. Any European economy which could only function because of immigration into the country would be deeply flawed, and none exist imo.
The UK is currently experiencing record levels of immigration, in the year up to June 2024 1.2 million immigrants entered the UK, so your apparent claim** that the long-term sick need to have their personal independence payments removed so as to either force them into work or make them work harder, because of a lack of immigrants entering the country, is clearly nonsense.
** "Where's the workforce coming from that'll drive some/any sort of increase in the economy if not from people who're currently claiming either sickness/PIP unemployment who could (with encouragement) get back into work."
That's what I would expect... Brexit supporting immigrant supports past immigration but questions the need for more.
Anyway... some good coverage of powers (and funding) being proposed for HRMC as regard tax avoidance:
https://bsky.app/profile/danneidle.bsky.social/post/3llcbummrf22o
[ as an aside, I thought it was mentioned in the speech, just not in any meaningful detail... so this bsky thread is useful for that ]
but questions the numbers coming in since they arrived.
Where have seen that? In the rejection of the racist term "mass" immigration?
What I saw was someone challenging the nonsense that the present government needs to take away money from the long-term sick to force them into work because of a lack of immigrants entering the UK.
The £5 billion benefit cuts has bugger all to do with a lack of immigrants or British voters being racist. It is about saving money and absolutely nothing else.
Edit : I see that you have edited your post kelvin but still maintain the baseless and frankly offensive claim that I am opposed to immigration
Edit 2 : It really is an act of desperation to try to suggest a link between cutting benefits to disabled people and Brexit. That level of dishonesty is worthy of a Tory politician
Where's the workforce coming from that'll drive some/any sort of increase in the economy if not from people who're currently claiming either sickness/PIP unemployment who could (with encouragement) get back into work.
You really think the UK labour deficit is going to be filled by a few hundred thousand disabled people who can't wash themselves, cook for themselves or need support to go to the toilet? In fact it'll make the situation worse becaue those who are currently working are going to see reductions in financial support (like mobility vehicles) which will force them to give up work.
I'll repeat again, if Labour want to get people back to work I'm all for that. But you don't do that by cutting people's benefits, you do it by incentivising them and employers by spending more money not less. All Reeves is doing is what repeated Tory chancellors have done by reaching for the big stick and damn the consequences. Actually she's going much further than her tory predecessors, even George Osborne didn't possess the callousness and ruthlessness to punish the disabled.
Where have seen that?
Apologies, I changed my post to be more clear. You must have seen it before the quick edit.
"Brexit supporting immigrant supports past immigration but questions the need for more."
Partly in reply to...
Any European economy which could only function because of immigration into the country would be deeply flawed, and none exist imo
We need immigration. Not just to "function", but to function as well as possible.
Edit 2 : It really is an act of desperation to try to suggest a link between cutting benefits to disabled people and Brexit. That level of dishonesty is worthy of a Tory politician
When you put it like that. Maybe. But when it comes to workforce planning, a reduction in immigration (don't pretend that wasn't what Brexit was about) means several things, including making sure fewer people are out of work due to disabilities. I've said several times that I think that probably requires spending MORE to help disabled people in the workplace, not less. The age of retirement needs to be increased as well... and age discrimination in the workplace dealt with... but I can't see that nettle being grasped any time soon.
Yeah but the cut in PIP entitlement is about saving money and nothing else.
Obviously those who support the cut in disability benefits to disabled people would rather that people didn't think it was just about money because it sounds so cruel. Much better to pretend that it is to help disabled people get back into work. It's for their own good, apparently.
“I want to make everyone richer,” Rachel said. The denial was cutting in big time. “Everyone is going to be £500 richer.” The disabled people didn’t know how lucky they were to be made to work even if they couldn’t. Robinson suddenly realised the chancellor might he having a major meltdown. She didn’t seem to understand that the whole point of making benefits cuts was to save money. Just saying that everyone would suddenly have jobs that would make them richer was a fantasy.
John Crace
Much better to pretend that it is to help disabled people get back into work.
It does sound like spin, doesn't it. What else happens in the next 20 months, before the benefit changes come in, will make it clear if it's all just about cutting the benefit bill, or genuinely part of supporting people into and in work. I'm not hopeful right now.
You really think the UK labour deficit is going to be filled by a few hundred thousand disabled people who can't wash themselves, cook for themselves or need support to go to the toilet?
No and nor does anyone else, if people need help dong such basic things they should be getting more help. The cuts should be targeted at the more marginal cases currently receiving support. I'm guessing they are hoping that by sounding tough on benefits it might frighten some people into being more proactive in getting back into work or increasing their hours / income from work. Will that be achieved, I doubt it, will probably make people worse but if you accept there's not enough money in the system and you don't want to raise taxes something's going to give and someone is going to suffer.
I'm not sure incentivising employers to take on more people with disability or health issues will help either. Employment law means it's difficult managing people who struggle with work and attendance. Most employers just won't take the risk if they think an potential employee may become a headache later.
Yeah but the cut in PIP entitlement is about saving money and nothing else.
This is why it's so offensive. Trying to dress up a budget cut which is designed only to appease the anxiety of bankers in the bond markets as somehow for the benefit of disabled people is one of the most egregious examples of political dishonesty I've ever seen. Starmer and Reeves have clearly been learning from their new mate because its straight out of the Trump playbook. Given all the outrage and wailing on the Trump thread I'm quite astonished that some of the same people are on here defending it. 🤷♂️
The cuts should be targeted at the more marginal cases currently receiving support.
What % fall into that category?
The cuts should be targeted at the more marginal cases currently receiving support.
What % fall into that category?
Pretty much zero.
In England its really difficult to get disability benefits. Scotland slightly easier. Benefit fraud is a tiny issue compared to tax frauds and unclaimed benefits
Even ESA in England is a nightmare to claim long term after your assessment ~3 months after getting standard rate, possibly in addition to a back claim of 3 months.
In England its really difficult to get disability benefits.
That's because if you want to get everything you're entitled to there are two assessments, one for PIP and another for DLA. The proposal is to get rid of the WCA - very much hated by anyone who's ever been in front of the panel and the sole assessment will be based on PIP. I know that disability groups have been campaigning to get rid of the WCA for ages.
What % fall into that category?
Don't know, depends on the governments appetite to put up taxes (unless you believe in the magic money tree approach). Also depends on where you want to set the bar, I think we all agree the people with the sort of challenges dazh alluded to should be fully supported, almost definitely to a greater degree than they are at the moment. The question is where do you draw the line between not coping very well with life and needing state support because you can't support yourself.
The feeling of many people is we are supporting people who really should be sorting their own issues. The right, centrists and the left all see that murky threshold at different points. It's tough though as those people are struggling but there's an argument to be made that providing support just gets them dependant on benefits, ideally any supported should be targeted at getting them back into work, seems Labour is trying the stick approach. Bottom line is though we just don't have enough money to support people to extent some would like (unless MMT). Yu could try taxing the economically active even more but that's a sure fire way to push people into the arms of Reform, you could try wealth taxes etc. on the very wealthy but good luck with making that work as an independent nation, you'd need to be part of a group of larger nations who could actually make a difference if they pulled together. you know a bit like the EU.
I've said it before, I'd personally prefer it if the government focused on reducing the cost of living, housing and energy rather than pushing up the minimum wage and benefits. Labour have made noises about doing both things, not seeing a lot of progress so far though.
I've said it before, I'd personally prefer it if the government focused on reducing the cost of living, housing and energy rather than pushing up the minimum wage and benefits. Labour have made noises about doing both things, not seeing a lot of progress so far though.
Both the "house building programme" and GBenergy, should be helping those causes long term, but in reality they are looking nothing more than privatising profits for their financial backers, and pretence that private finance for public services isn't a cost that has to be paid back at a far greater cost than the "debt" they tell us we can't afford.
Don't know
So you are proposing cutting of benefits to marginal cases only but you don't know how many there are. What if it is much lower than your biases lead you to think there are?
I'm guessing they are hoping that by sounding tough on benefits it might frighten some people into being more proactive in getting back into work or increasing their hours / income from work.
Absolutely they are frightening people, by all accounts from what I have read some disabled people are literally terrified.
Employment law means it's difficult managing people who struggle with work and attendance. Most employers just won't take the risk if they think an potential employee may become a headache later.
Well maybe it's time to reintroduce the Green Card scheme introduced by a [proper] Labour government and scrapped by the Tories then?
And I will remind you that "headaches" for employers doesn't come into it, employers don't have a choice on the matter, they have a statutory obligation to make reasonable adjustments for disabled employees, whether they like it or not.
Bottom line is though we just don't have enough money to support people to extent some would like
That is a classic Tory nonsensical argument. The UK is one of the wealthiest nations on Earth, only 7% of the working-age population suffers long-term health issues. It is about choices and priorities and nothing else.
I have to say that for a long time now I have bemoaned the fact that the once vibrant political debates on stw, which included a significant contribution from Tory Party supporters, no longer existed and instead an unhealthy echo chamber had replaced these debates which had challenged people's core beliefs.
So it is great to see this change as Tory supporters masquerading as "centrists" are forced to break cover, and once again we see the conditions for healthy debates relevant to the choices facing the UK electorate!
So if there's one thing to be grateful to Sir Keir Starmer for is that he has flushed a fair few of the legendary "shy Tories" out into the open ! 🤣
Don't know, depends on the governments appetite to put up taxes (unless you believe in the magic money tree approach).
Sorry can you define "magic money tree" a bit more. Since in my experience the left, centrists and right wingers are all happy with it when it suits their needs. Its just that the centrists and the right use it as an insult when its not serving their needs.
The feeling of many people is we are supporting people who really should be sorting their own issues.
I know, all these ****wits who brought houses massively overpriced hoping the low interest rates would continue forever and the government would stop relying on those builders with land banks who have an interest in keeping the prices high. Oh wait a minute you dont mean them do you?
Lets look at "sort their own issues" and the wait times for mental health treatment. Its not looking good is it or are we going for if someone is ill they should heal themselves?
The entire sort it out themselves I find annoying since its generally deployed by people who have had lots of cushioning to allow them to do so. Sure there are exceptions but they are rare in my experience. Since you need to manage to sort out your issues and then you need to disregard how hard it is in most cases to do so.
Personally I am happy I have mostly not had to. My mum and dad on the other hand both had a really crap upbringing but were that subset who did manage to break out of it to, luckily, give me a far better upbringing than many of those I spent early childhood with.
Could I have managed the same? I would like to think so but really have no idea and hence I dont sit there judging others who werent lucky enough for them to have their parents manage to give a boost up or, alternately, to have really privileged parents and hence were able to make mistakes that would have pushed me back down.
I would also note another problem with all the crackdowns on people allegedly abusing the system is that whilst there are definitely people abusing the system my money is on them being the ones ending up with the benefits vs those who actually need it. After all they are professionals who specialise in this area vs those who need the help and hence, pretty much by definition, will be less capable of getting it without assistance
I've said it before, I'd personally prefer it if the government focused on reducing the cost of living, housing and energy
Which is the problem really. To fix the housing would upset a lot of people who, in many cases, dont understand they have been beneficiaries of poor state decisions being hit by a massive decrease in their perceived wealth.
The feeling of many people is we are supporting people who really should be sorting their own issues
As a result of constant black right wing propaganda. Its simply not true.
Nickc
PIP assesments in englad are still contracted out are they not? The company that does them has a quota of refusals to fill and most refusals are overturned on appeal once professionals are involved.
Its deliberately difficult to qualify for and spurious refusals are common.
My friend who was in the end stages of MS was told she no longer qualified despite having dementia and being unable to walk. Of course it was reinstated on appeal. This was under the contracted out assessment
Actually sorting out housing prices requires drastic actions. For example the state could build houses where rent is 50% of the going rate or even sell houses where price is 50% of going rate with a lifetime contract that house can only be sold at purchase price plus inflation. Either of those things would crash the market (rental and sales) with result that housing would be a lot cheaper.
The impact on existing mortgagees and landlords would be massive and people would never be able to sell their houses due to negative equity but again housing and rental prices would become affordable.
yes this is extreme but to actually sort it out it needs to be extreme. Never going to happen is it…
The company that does them has a quota of refusals to fill and most refusals are overturned on appeal once professionals are involved. It's deliberately difficult to qualify for and spurious refusals are common.
Given that the whole point of looking to reform is the increase in spend in DLA and PIP from 1.1% of GPD in 2007/08 to 1.8% in 2024/25, and that nearly all that increase has come in the last 6 years then logically it can't be true. [that there are spurious refusals and it's difficult to qualify]
Here's a link to Labour's green paper, which is probably a bit more useful then 2nd hand Hyperbole from newspapers.
that nearly all that increase has come in the last 6 years then logically it can't be true. [that there are spurious refusals and it's difficult to qualify]
What?? It simply suggests that more people have managed to qualify. How does it prove there are not a great deal of spurious refusals and that it is easy to qualify?
In case you were not aware of a very significant change in the nation's health, which would be surprising given your job, and from a non second hand hyperbole newspaper source :
In March 2023, an estimated 1.9 million people in the UK reported that they were experiencing long covid, representing 2.9% of the population.
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9112/
Edit : The other obvious difference between 2007/08 and the last six years is that in 2007/08 we had a Labour government and most of the last six years we have had Tory governments.
Good luck trying to convince people that the Tories were a soft touch when it came to benefits (maybe someone else needs to see I, Daniel Blake) Although convincing people that the current "Labour" government is crueler than the Tories is probably becoming increasingly easier.
Someone I know pointed out the OBR was created in 2010 and things have mostly been ruinous since then.
Needs to go - offers no utility other than keeping bond vigilantes happy - everyone else can suffer.
Bond vigilantes are a funny breed - they absolutely can't buy bonds without the government issuing money to buy them in the first place. They've done very well recently.
If I were Labour and I was trying to fix this mess I'd be recalibrating which part of economy needs reform and it's clearly the parasitic bond market and its extractive position is a privilege that is at odds with fixing everything else.
You could remove it tomorrow and we'd be better off as a society.
It exists because of gold standard legacy and as a secure place to store interest bearing cash - which is restricted to 85,000 in savings. There is no restriction on gilts
With the OBR currently we will be stuck in a doom loop. (The OBRs record is utter crap anyway.)
So this MMT lark...
I had a bit of a read and a bit of a think. Often dangerous, admittedly.
The people who view it as some kind of saviour and those who (maybe) understand it.
Surely it is just a wealth (re)distribution mechanism if used in the manner that left of centre people would like it used. I get that many of the made-up tax and spend fiscal rules are just statements of political intent rather than monetary policy.
I still can't work out whether a country that is a net importers of essentials (like the UK) is running the risk of its currency becoming worthless for transactions that must be done in USD. But if a currency is devalued, but there is more of it... I can't get this straight in my head.
The 3 examples people cite of hyperinflation:
Weimar Republic - was crippled by reparations - conditions were totally stacked against it as a viable polity.
Zimbabwe - economic policy was a basket case and productivity slumped to such an extent that the country and economy was ****ed.
Venezuela is the interesting one - overly reliant on oil exports, but the single biggest factor seems to be that the USA simply doesn't like left-wing regimes in its hemisphere, so it largely did Venezuela over.
So - what if the UK threw off the vested interests and embraced uninhibited MMT and issued currency to achieve full employment?
My bet is that other countries would gang up and do us in - one way or another. Many countries (and the mega-rich backers of their politcians) would not like their electorates seeing that there could be another way of doing things.
So...
I haven't thought about it enough yet to be convinced - economics has always bored the shit out of me. Bonds, reserves, exchange rates, hedges... yawn. But even if it could be done in the UK, I think we'd get screwed over because we're simply not big enough to tell the rest of the world "this is how things are being done from now on, lump it".
Thoughts?
In terms of making porperties available there's a huge stock of property being used for short-term rental on booking, airbnb that could be pushed back on to the long-term let market with some rule and tax changes. Simply ban short-term lets in some areas and punitive taxes on the others. Triple council tax on any second property inoccupied for more than a year or appearing on any online short-term rental platform. A 50 percent flat tax on all rentals on online platforms. There are 450 000 properties used for short-rentals, that's a good contribution. Many owners will probably sell rather than lon-term rent increasing property available to buy.
MMT will never be anything more than speculation on a bike forum, it's just talk. No party with any chance of getting elected has any apetite for it.
In terms of making porperties available there's a huge stock of property being used for short-term rental on booking, airbnb that could be pushed back on to the long-term let market with some rule and tax changes
As I'm sure you're aware, they're doing something like that in Paris. Not sure if it's effective but it does seem that Paris property prices are less insane than London and many other UK cities.
As I'm sure you're aware, they're doing something like that in Paris.
Some of the Welsh councils have been taking action including a increased council tax for second homes and requirement for planning permission to switch to holiday lets.
It seems to have had an effect with a drop in house prices in the coastal areas.
The current Labour plan of removing those tedious regulations to allow the private sector to build seems a true case of ideological zeal. I expect we will get a bunch more unsuitable homes built in even more unsuitable locations but kept at levels designed to maintain prices as they are now.
Paris property prices are less insane than London and many other UK cities.
That's not really a Paris thing. Property in France is generally pretty cheap compared to the uk. Only place it's really crazy is some of the ski resorts and that is definitely a special case.
Just wondering was this done before or after the Comms chief recently resigned?
https://twitter.com/UKLabour/status/1906036131302658320?t=pOP19qrNOdrlyJiZ8ZFl5g&s=19
In some ways it's a very accurate reflection of how they see themselves.
But it is also truly truly terrible.
https://labourlist.org/2025/03/labour-spring-statement-polling-alienate/
Ipsos’ snap-polling conducted immediately after this week’s Spring Statement shows half the public (51%) thinks Rachel Reeves is doing a bad job as Chancellor. Concerningly for her, this is up 7-percentage points from last month. Even worse, this is now just short of the verdict they delivered to Kwarteng after his infamous “mini-Budget” when he registered a 53% disapproval rating.
To have a similar level of disapproval as Kwasi Kwarteng is quite an achievement. Although probably not for Rachel Reeves.
What they're up to currently will cause much more long term harm than what Truss & Kwarteng tried to do. They never implemented anything.
Interest rates were already going up way before the mini-budget and are still barely moving now despite Reeves going on about them coming down. (The BoE is being sticky on paying that lovely cash to people with money.)
Financial instability such as retraceable movements in the pound are seen as more detrimental than a harmful reduction in benefits.
"Cos that's the Centrist way - a total misunderstanding of economic policy but failing to court the electorate in the process.
Because not enough recognition is given to all those positive things which Sir Keir Starmer is quietly achieving :
https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1906671299142791496
https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1906603016221757804
No gimmicks. Just hard graft.
This government is delivering the security you deserve.
I feel safer already.
Hard Graft? FFS
Hard at keeping an anti-immigration sentiment alive.
Ah well the domestic storm of an even higher price level is about to knock on number 10 and 11.
Hard Graft?
Well Starmer says that he is rolling up his sleeves to fix it, so I know he's serious.
Just 21% of adults in Britain are satisfied with how the health service runs, down from 24% a year before, while 59% are dissatisfied, up from 52%, the latest annual survey of patients found.
Satisfaction has fallen dramatically from the 70% recorded in 2010, the year the last Labour government left office, and the 60% found in 2019, the year before the Covid-19 pandemic.
Guess the PM who wrote this in the telegraph.
“Take the project in Ebbsfleet to build more than 15,000 new homes... The plan was blocked by Natural England. Why? The discovery of a colony of ‘distinguished jumping spiders.’ The dream of home ownership for thousands of families, held back by arachnids. It’s nonsense. And we’ll stop it.”
It should come as no surprise that in fact the claim of the spiders blocking development was the part which was nonsense.
Impressive he has managed to get the wildlife trusts up in the arms.
Wildlife trust has also been commenting on Labour going full tory ranting about tedious concerns getting in the way of building houses and hence needing the removal of those tedious planning laws vs just how much land already has permission but isnt being built on.
Guess the PM who wrote this in the telegraph.
Good Christ that will be my parents-in-law with more science fiction in their heads. They won't know which way to turn.
Spiders / Spider Lies / Houses / Starmer / Wildlife Trust
Impressive he has managed to get the wildlife trusts up in the arms.
Can you remember listening to the experts - did that go out of the centrist window?
James O'Brien just now "Starmer ever the pragmatist." The word pragmatism requires banning from political verbiage with regard to Starmer.
There's nothing pragmatic about thinking, "what would a Tory/Reform hybrid PM do now?"
People voted for poor outcomes.
Just 21% of adults in Britain are satisfied with how the health service runs
It's kind of ironic that the lack of posts in this thread from the STW centrist contingent is a good indicator of the success of this govt. I guess if you're a Labour supporter there's nothing much to talk about. 😀
Just 21% of adults in Britain are satisfied with how the health service runs
It's kind of ironic that the lack of posts in this thread from the STW centrist contingent is a good indicator of the success of this govt. I guess if you're a Labour supporter there's nothing much to talk about. 😀
And their latest approval on you gov.
Following the Spring Statement, government approval falls to its joint lowest level since Labour were elected Approve: 14% (-5 from 22-24 Mar) Disapprove: 68% (+8) Net: -54 (-13)
Oh and this.
73% of Britons think the government is handling the issue of welfare benefits badly, the highest level since YouGov began asking the question in 2019 Well: 16% (-4 from 22-24 Mar) Badly: 73% (+7)
Pragmatism.
For whom?
(imagine believing unpopular/tough decisions are inherentely linked to solid politics and economics.)
"the survey was undertaken in September and October"
How dare labour not have substantially improved the NHS in the several working days between when they took power and when that survey was undertaken.
It's kind of ironic that the lack of posts in this thread from the STW centrist contingent is a good indicator of the success of this govt. I guess if you're a Labour supporter there's nothing much to talk about.
Hard to know what stage of denial they are in, maybe they have skipped straight to depression and can't be bothered with it anymore. I would still be in the anger stage and may never get past that having been so let down by what was supposed to be a Labour government and them continuing with more and more tory shit by the week.
Just 21% of adults in Britain are satisfied with how the health service runs
It's kind of ironic that the lack of posts in this thread from the STW centrist contingent is a good indicator of the success of this govt. I guess if you're a Labour supporter there's nothing much to talk about. 😀
What do you want me as a disappointed Labour voting centrist to say? They've delivered some stuff and been an absolute ****ing shit show with other stuff.
Your continued gloating about the ****ed up state of the government really doesn't help anyone.
It's kind of ironic that the lack of posts in this thread from the STW centrist contingent is a good indicator of the success of this govt. I guess if you're a Labour supporter there's nothing much to talk about.
Hard to know what stage of denial they are in, maybe they have skipped straight to depression and can't be bothered with it anymore. I would still be in the anger stage and may never get past that having been so let down by what was supposed to be a Labour government and them continuing with more and more tory shit by the week.
Sums it up nicely