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What’s a “liberal”, YOUR definition?
I'm sure you can work it out, but for the avoidance of any further pendatry, lets just replace 'liberal' with 'people'. Why do people get very worked up about the death penalty and oppose it on the grounds that the state shouldn't kill it's own citizens (which I agree with BTW) yet don't seem to apply the same high principles and standards to the citizens of other countries?
I guess this is why many people do support the death penalty. They can probably see the inherent hypocrisy in the arguments against it. Why do we value the lives of UK murderers, peadophiles and rapists (for example) over an innocent civilian in somewhere like Syria, Iraq or Afganistan? I think if you asked most people who they would prefer to be killed the answer would be pretty obvious.
Who are these “people”?
FGS it's obvious. The people who oppose the death penalty.
This debate about hypocrisy on the death penalty probably belongs somewhere other than on the UK election thread
I'm inclined to agree. Don't even know how it came up. Was someone having a rant about gammons or something?
I just thought I'd pop in to this thread and catch up.
How the hell have you got on to the death penalty?
It's everyone ok today?
What else to talk about while we wait for FGF?
How the hell have you got on to the death penalty?
It's a bit quiet on the campaign front. Although it was fun watching Starmer spluttering when confronted by a raging TERF on the 5live phonein this morning. I'm always amazed that with everything that's going on in this country one of the prominent issues that keeps coming up is whether a woman can have a penis or not and which toilets they should use. It's truly mindboggling. 🤷♂️
Its been bafffling me too. The amount of people this is likely to effect is so absolutely miniscule that a lot of the time they're surely talking about situations that are entirely hypothetical?
The death penalty and war are completely different concepts.
State sponsored killing, so not that different from a moral perspective. Anyway we're not doing that any more. 🙂
Keep up Molls. We're on to which toilets you should use if you've still got a pair of cobblers but you also like to wear a dress? Apparently its a very pressing electoral issue
Stop being silly.
The death penalty and war are completely different concepts.
Yeah, it's okay to say that but if you surrender to Labour, Starmer's death robots will come and kill you in your sleep. That's an awful way to die especially after you've paid all that extra Labour tax.
We’re on to which toilets you should use if you’ve still got a pair of cobblers but you also like to wear a dress?
It's an important issue. I inadvertently offended a couple of people in a Manchester hipster pub recently after I walked into the toilets and apologised when I saw two women and assumed I'd walked into the ladies by mistake. Imagine my horror when I then had to go back in to the 'toilets with urinals' and hang my head in shame as I had clearly misgendered two trans men who had chosen to use the mens toilets.
Stop being silly.
Abso-bleedin-lutely.
We take being sensible so seriously in this country that we created a Minister For Common Sense. That's how seriously we take it.
It is actually like living in a Monty Python sketch or a Kafka novel sometimes.
🤡🇬🇧🤡🇬🇧
We’re on to which toilets you should use if you’ve still got a pair of cobblers but you also like to wear a dress?
We need a way of telling. We will need attendants on every public toilet to conduct a physical exam on entry. If it's the toilets in say, a coffee shop, the barista will have to conduct the search. Clearly this is not a long term solution so we will need a technological solution - some sort of 3d body scanner aimed at everyone's genitals. These could be incorporated into normal CCTV so the movements of trans people can be tracked at all times. Also AI trained to detect if those with balls are dressed as men or women. That should come under a few billion a year.
I always thought places with the death penalty have higher crime rates because criminals just think “**** it! If I’m going to die I might as well go wild”!
How would you tell the difference between a Starmer death robot and just the normal Starmer?
Had a another load of election leaflets this morning - one from the Women's Party totally focussed on the trans issue, one from the Tories (which seems to minimise the Conservative Party logo and is a waste of paper as the chance of them winning in my constituency is less than zero) and had two leaflets from the Greens which adds to the growing pile of paper they have sent in the past few weeks (well into double figures), much of which is a bit underhand using graphics and colours which are a copy of Labour's, as they try to unseat a fantastic constituency Labour MP who was first elected 9 years ago.
I always thought places with the death penalty have higher crime rates because criminals just think “**** it! If I’m going to die I might as well go wild”!
In the case of the US enshrining the right of people to go about their daily lives toting the kind of firepower that would make a WW1 platoon jealous - is probably a contributing factor.
In the case of the US enshrining the right of people to go about their daily lives toting the kind of firepower that would make a WW1 platoon jealous – is probably a contributing factor.
They should incentivise potential murderers to not kill people by promising that they won't go to prison if they refrain.
I had a leaflet from the Tories last week, and I think posted through the door just so that can say that they did. My constituency's so Labour I was genuinely surprised that they could be bothered. Couldn't tell you any more than that, it went unread into the recycling.
I know the comments are tongue in cheek, I can live with that. But while it may be a fringe issue for most, when I look at what a Tory and/or Reform admin would likely do next, it makes it a pretty big one for us - a very high stakes week ahead. Even if labour's position is unclear and starmer can be tied in knots over definitions (can't we all, I'm dad to a trans son and I can't get a definition that covers all situations, I'd have to write an essay) - I have to believe they are far more likely to pass the 'just be kind' test.
While the antitrans always seem to focus on what toilet a person with cobblers should use, is it the same answer for a person without. Why aren't they up in arms over their choices. Are we compelled to use the ladies with you?
No, let’s not – YOU used the word on purpose.
I assure you that you're seeking offence where none is intended. It's pretty obvious what liberal means, and it's pretty obvious that opposition to the death penalty is very much a liberal cause celebre. I don't know many reactionaries or conservatives who are passionate about their opposition to the death penalty. Quite the opposite in fact.
Lighten up! It's nearly the weekend, only a couple of hours to go before we can go down the pub. 🙂
From Cold War Steve on Twitter
Just got this through the door from the Tories. We’ve been getting a constant stream of their election bumph for weeks now.
I’m still mystified at them going to all this expense in a seat they are 100% guaranteed to lose, though to be fair this one seems to be more centred on damage limitation
The Tories have really got the Sherry constituency nailed.
Would be interesting to see the subgroup-analysis by age and gender - sherry will surely be over 70s. and VK under 25s? Ales - white male and stale (us lot on STW😉) Pimms a bit of an outlier surely
I had the same come through yesterday, thought it was a great advert for Labour
Also AI trained to detect if those with balls are dressed as men or women.
That could cause chaos in Scotland. Is it a kilt or a skirt?
😉
Just got this through the door from the Tories. We’ve been getting a constant stream of their election bumph for weeks now.
Got the same one here in MidSussex - suspect that they don't have the budget or volunteers to do local tailored ones, so just doing some mass mailing via Royal Mail
We had 3 'personal' letters and 2 leaflets from Gyles Brandreth's offspring over the last couple of days, who is standing for the Tories in my area. There is only me and the wife living at my home address - why did we get 3 named letters (me twice)?
I can safely say she can stuff as much paper as she wants through my letter box, I still won't vote for her. It makes good nesting for the chickens.
One of the rare times that Sunak gets it right
So as I read that flyer, Labour are going to reinvest in the economy and help the the economically disadvantaged whilst strengthening workers rights and taxing boomers?
Crack on!
We've not heard a squeak out of anyone but the Labour candidate, which is odd because it was a Tory seat.
I actually printed those flyers. Some of them should be personalized I think? I honestly almost refused to run it. Did think the message might be a tad subtle for a lot of people, hence begrudgingly hit the big green "print" button.
One of the rare times that Sunak gets it right
Credit where it's due.
He's still a thieving charlatan, though.
That could cause chaos in Scotland. Is it a kilt or a skirt?
A kilt is a skirt both by literal meaning of the word and examination of the object. Or to put it another way, kilt-dom is a social construct...
https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/kilt
It’s pretty obvious what liberal means,
You sound like those folk who talk bollox and then when asked for evidence say "google it, I'm not your researcher" etc.
I know what I think "liberal" means, but what do YOU think it means - you were the one to use it and then backpedal when challenged.
kilt-dom is a social construct…
Kilt-dom sounds like a slightly niche kink.
Edit: NB - this article is really about Sunak rather than Starmer - not sure why Starmer's name is in the link!
This is the first time I've EVER had any respect for him. To come out and challenge this, to use the word that should be long-dead, is good leadership.
There! I said it! It feels weird...
Edit: I'd really like it if all the other leaders (apart from Reform obvs) came out in clear solidarity with him here.
Local Tory candidate just knocked on the door to see if there were any local or national issues I wanted to ask him about. Fair play to the guy.
Luckily for him, I was just sitting down for a post workout meal, so I declined his kind offer.
Kilt-dom sounds like a slightly niche kink.
There's a naughty man loose aboot this hoose
What’s a “liberal”, YOUR definition?
...
lets just replace ‘liberal’ with ‘people’.
...
Who are these “people”?
...
FGS it’s obvious. The people who oppose the death penalty.
Sooooooooooo the people who oppose the death penalty are all liberals. Got it.
I just thought I’d pop in to this thread and catch up.
How the hell have you got on to the death penalty?
See the image I copied a couple of pages back.
one from the Women’s Party
Is that one led by the woman fresh out of Westboro Baptists who looks like she'd eat anyone who disagrees?
#blamecougar
I get that a lot.
In other news,
The Tories are officially toast. The Daily Mail is shitting itself, today's headline is "IT'S NOT TOO LATE TO STOP A STARMER SUPERMAJORITY!" They don't just think they're going to lose, they think they're going to lose very very badly indeed.
I had clearly misgendered two trans men who had chosen to use the mens toilets
Transvestites or transsexuals?
the tories give right wing extremists a voice, and end up being drown out by that voice
Just had some election materials in the post. The Tory one was really weirdo. Sent as an actual letter, it was just a bit of bollocks on the front. Then the back was a full page "Kier Starmer needs you to vote reform" you'll hand him a 100 seats majority etc. Hardly inspiring stuff. Then again whilst he's nice enough for a Tory, my MP David Rutley could well be the singularly most uninspiring man on the planet.
I was wholly unsurprised by its blatantly deliberate deployment followed by an immediate backpedal when challenged. Boy should consider running as a Tory MP.
I guess this is the perfect test of the much claimed idea that we want these scumbag racists and would-be fascists standing for parliament because then, and only then, they'd be out in the open with nothing to protect them from the spotlight of scrutiny.
We'll see if
a) We still have the right sort of media to provide that scrutiny
b) Anyone takes any notice.
So Rishi and Nige have basically suspended campaigning while they hurl accusations at each other, both doing a good line in faux outrage (racists in being racist Shocka!!).
Labour and Lib Dem campaign managers must be cracking open the bubbly and laughing their tits off
It’s quite enjoyable watching the right eat itself. 5 years overdue unfortunately. That’s when this should have happened
"This is the first time I’ve EVER had any respect for him. To come out and challenge this, to use the word that should be long-dead, is good leadership.
There! I said it! It feels weird"
Yeah it hurts him when he receives prejudice and abuse for something which he doesn't choose to be. But he's happy to be just as prejudiced against Trans people who also don't choose that.
"transvestite or transexual".
**** off and educate yourself. These are not acceptable terms these days.
There’s also the small matter of Braverman and other members of his own party referring to immigrants as ‘a swarm’ and talking of ‘an invasion’, completely unchallenged by him
Not remotely ‘divisive and corrosive’ language, eh Rishi?
He’s no different to Farage, stoking division with toxic rhetoric to suit his own ends. It’s a bit late in the day to start getting offended by it now.
And does anyone think for a second it might provoke some soul-searching about his own language and dog-whistling?
I wouldn’t hold my breath
This whole ‘right eating itself’ would be a lot more entertaining if I wasn’t so worried about the US leading us into democratic annihilation. If Trump gets the Whitehouse then it’s Farage 29 for us and looking at the way Europe is heading I can’t see much help there.
I feel this whole gleeful Tory’s are toast meme isn’t going to age well when we are faced with proper naked facism.
What’s so annoying is the UK is ahead of the game once again but this time fear there will be no fighting on the beaches.
See the Tory party political broadcast after the C4 news was using the £2k Labour tax hike figure that they were told not to. Also highlighting that pensioners will be 'hammered' by the retirement tax (around £36 in reality) and that Labour may be in power for 'your lifetime'.
Really is project fear desperation.
“transvestite or transexual”.
**** off and educate yourself. These are not acceptable terms these days.
Maybe you can educate me. What are today's acceptable terms? For the record I have nothing against trans people at all but I guess I don't know the current nomenclature.
Cross-dresser for the first one, slowoldman. I'm as ignorant as you of why transexual is unacceptable( edit: if it is, Google says it's ok). However having a potty mouth and telling people to **** off on STW has always been unacceptable, perthpixie.
Transgender is a broad, umbrella term and is good for non-transgender people to use. “Trans” is shorthand for transgender. Transgender is preferred over transvestite or transsexual, older terms which do not accurately describe all transgender people, and which also have a clinical or stigmatizing connotation, although some people still use them to self describe.
I'd avoid unless the person you are describing or talking to use the terms themselves.
[edit - although a better term I wouldn't use cross dresser either in this case as not all trans people cross dress, and not all cross dressers are trans]
But this isn't a trans thread beyond it being (for most) a minor factor in their choice next Thursday, so let's not make it one.
Transgender is preferred over transvestite or transsexual
But surely transgender doesn't describe BOTH those groups I apparently mistakenly labelled does it? Anyway, I've done my own research and apparently I should have used the terms cross-dresser and transgender. So, these chaps in the lav, were they cross-dressers or transgender?
see my edit. Labelling trans people as cross dressers isn't correct, and as I put before can have a stigmatizing feel to it ('just a man in a dress')
Ultimately, I'd suggest letting the person / community decide on their labels rather than argue semantics over whether there's totally accurate matches. It's not about what you think it should be.
OK, not a trans thread.
Apparently some embargo worthy Saturday paper stuff for tomorrow
Presumably election related....
More reform racist revelations?
Starmer plans tax raid on toddlers?
Sunak is joining Trump campaign?
Right, so saying to a "man" wearing a skirt/dress/makeup/whstever "So what are you? A transvestite or transexual?" is like saying to a black person "So where are you really from?" It's unnecessary, offensive and de humanising. It's a person, a human being just trying to get through the day as anonymously as possible. Note a woman can't be a transvestite. Most women wear trousers, hoodies, t-shirts etc. It's a term designed to mock "men" who don't confirm to gender stereotypes.
@edukator sorry if I upset your delicate sensitivities. My partner is a trans women and yet again she has come home in tears after a day of abuse and catcalls just because it's a sunny day and she went out in a skirt. "oh, freak how many gold medals are you going to steal off the real women" was a particular highlight.
Being trans might in theory be as protected a characteristic as race, colour or sexualality, but the reality is it's the joke one. The one that if you report abuse you get "well pal, what did you expect going out in a dress".
Tories and Labour are as bad as each other on this. I don't like the SNP, but at least they tried. They did it badly and the battle with the feminists (which I totally understand} was totally unnecessary, but at least they tried to make life a tiny bit better.
And breathe... It's been a very trying and upsetting day. Again. 🙁
I don’t like the SNP, but at least they tried.
They not only tried, they weren't hostile too.
In the 70's we knew no better and the stuff on the telly wasn't helping - it's 50 'kin years later, and it feels nothing has changed.
Personally it was brought home to me +20 years ago when a work colleague said to me: "I don't choose to be gay, I am gay.".
Since then I've tried to let & support folk to live the life they want to live, WTF has it to do with me anyway.
“This is the first time I’ve EVER had any respect for him.
**** him, **** him and **** him again, about time he got a taste of his own party’s vile rhetoric thrown at him.
@edukator sorry if I upset your delicate sensitivities.
Nah, you just devalued what could have been constructive content with insult.
I get the "where do you really come from", I'm an immigrant, and depending on how I think it's meant answer the question without complex or just keep replying with where I am till they make fools of themselves.
I don't cat call.
I don't get beyond "bonjour/bonsoir" unless a stranger takes the lead.
I've dressed up in my wife's clothes and taken my kid to school when there was an idiot anti-gay, anti homosexual preacher outside the school handing out homophobic leaflets for his church (I live 100m from the school so when I saw him went home and changed for the confrontation) - the support I got from other parents showed how much support there was for trans/homo - take heart from the acceptance of the majority and ignore the few idiots because there will always be idiots.
And cross-dresser seems like a perfectly reasonable non gender specific term for someone who dresses in clothes usually associated with the other sex.
All good but to pick up on the end statement.
My son dresses in clothes that match his identity but which in general are non-gender specific (you conflate sex and gender but I'll assume not deliberate) It's unremarkable for women to wear 'men's clothing' and so barely notable.
Perthpixie's partner dresses in clothes that match her identity. And gets comment as a result, because 'women's clothes' are for right or wrong more identifiable. But she's not cross dressing, hence labelling a trans person as a transvestite, or it's more acceptable version as a cross dresser is potentially denying them recognition of their identity.
So while some may use or accept the term, i'd say while it might be technically correct, it fails the be nice test to routinely refer to a trans person as a cross dresser.