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If that is all you are after then you are easily pleased. You realise you could also have a highly professional fascist government?
But pragmatically - don't vote to GTTO, or don't vote to keep Reform out, you're voting to let them in. We essentially have two options - vote tactically for something better (Lab or LibDem or SNP in most places, lucky folks in a few places can vote Green) or vote for something that is effectively meaningless and let the tory or the reform candidate in.
We can grizzle that we don't like the choices we are presented with....but we are grown adults with the ability for rational thought - we are not 3 year olds having a tantrum that the pack of crisps they have been presented with is green not blue.
Get a grip people and vote to GTTO out, then put pressure on your elected representative for the change you want to see and make it a project to make that change happen over the next 5 years....
On my local facebook pages I'm seeing a lot of people commenting vote reform..... just had the reform leaflet through the door.
It couldn't really happen could it?
On my local facebook pages I’m seeing a lot of people commenting vote reform….. just had the reform leaflet through the door.
It couldn’t really happen could it?
Only if we don't vote tactically to stop it happening - we have some agency here people
Could what happen? Reform will get a few votes in most places, maybe a seat in places like Clacton. Most places they will lose their deposit.
Labour are expecting that a sizable chunk of the folks that lent the Tories their vote so that they could “Get Brexit Done” will be giving the Labour party their vote in the understanding/ expectation that Brexit has been done, and they’re not going to be asked about it again in the near [or medium] future. For a still sizable portion of the voting public Brexit is now no longer an issue, it has been decided, and for for better or worse that’s the end of it.
This. Yes, its a total cluster****! We all know that but you could argue that the whole reason the country is in this mess is because the country has been drifting, rudderless for 8 years since the referendum because Brexit was the only thing on the political agenda.
Opening that particular can of worms will launch us straight back into that. Fancy another 8-10 years of that (minimum!) while nothing else gets done and everyone just shouts at each other, all as the economy crumbles?
If we have a labour government then Brussels will know that they're dealing with grown ups who won't be rabidly confrontational and try and blame them for all their old failings. I'll take that for the time being, because thats about as good as its going to get
This country voted to shit the bed and whether we like it or not we are where we are... lying in the shit-stained sheets. Starmer can't just wave a magic wand and get us back to where we were before, he knows it'll take decades of negotiations
Right now there are more pressing priorities
On my local facebook pages I’m seeing a lot of people commenting vote reform
Thats the thing about the type of person who votes Reform... like their gobshite of a leader, they like to shout about it anywhere and everywhere, whether anyone wants to hear it or not.
If someone mentions reform I always remind them that Lord FarFar wants to stop their payments.
Just thinking aloud here, so not aimed at anyone!
I posted similar on here before I think.
With the possible exception of, what, two posters, everyone on here wants rid of the Tories. We have all seen the damage caused and there is no redemption arc for them. They are a known quantity, what they will "deliver" in another 5 years of power is certain to be objectively bad for most UK people.
That's about the only certainty in this whole GE thread. Would anyone disagree with that?
So theres a near 100% consensus on here that another 5 years of Tory government is not a good outcome.
Yet, even with that near total consensus, there are a multitude of opinions on how to change the UK and it's government for the better. This is nothing new, left wing (you can decide where you are on the spectrum) types have argued for generations about similar topics. It fractured the consensus then as now and its consistently allowed the Tory party to be the most successful (at winning) democratic party in Western politics. We, in part, are to blame for that.
The left (meant in the broadest of terms!) have become unwitting allies of the Tories and the country has paid a high price for it.
We either get our shizzle together, accept that to get anywhere near the country/politics we want will take years and will always involve compromise... or... the next generation of the left will still be arguing about the same minutiae and the Tories or Reform will still be governing us whilst chuckling at our pursuit of perfect.
The Tory party is the weakest it's been in modern history, it will be unforgivable if we can't get our act together and absolutely demolish them. The generations to come will not thank us if we dont.
PR, real socially responsible policies, a fairer society, rejoining the EU... it's all there for the taking and it's not the Tories with the power to stop it. It's us.
I think I'll go for a walk now.
lucky folks in a few places can vote Green
AFAIK there's no constituency where the tactical vote to get rid of the Tories; is to vote Green.
I just don’t see how honest conversations about the cost of living crisis can ignore Brexit.
They can't. But since when has honesty had anything to do with Brexit?
24th June 2016 was the day I woke up to realise I didn't live in the country I thought I did. I despise Brexit and all it stands for.
But to a lot of people it was a never-ending shitshow that held a mirror up to the UK and they didn't like what they saw. A lot of folk (Leave and Remain) simply want to forget it and move on. Obviously they can't and the country can't. Obviously they need to have it pointed out to them that x problem or y problem is caused by Brexit, but...
Not by Labour when the prize is getting these Tories out. Starmer is lying when he says "no economic case for rejoin". Anyone interested knows that. But a big section of society is wilfully ignorant because they don't want to go into it again. Starmer has had a quick education in realpolitik and this is one he has got right. And I say that with a heavy heart.
We don't just need a Labour government. We need one with a huge majority and mandate who can edge us closer to the EU in stages.
Ooh, I dunno, borrowing to invest? The one thing we can do that we couldn’t before Brexit is chuck money at companies directly.
ruled out by labour.
this is my simple point. labour have ruled out all the avenues for improving the lot of the country. NO increased funding from taxation or borrowing, No improved funding from growth because out of the EU we will find this really hard.
We need a government that will solve the issues we have. labour are not offering this. They are offering more of the same with a bit of compassion
PR, real socially responsible policies, a fairer society, rejoining the EU… it’s all there for the taking
And all ruled out by labour
AFAIK there’s no constituency where the tactical vote to get rid of the Tories; is to vote Green.
Fair cop - the green candidates in Brighton (we're gonna miss Caroline Lucas 😥) and Brizzle aren't gonna be kicking out a Tory - but the point that in those places you can vote with your heart as well as your head still stands even if not clear in my post
And all ruled out by labour
In this parliament yes. We need to keep applying pressure, keep talking about it, and lobby who you can.
I wonder if Reform getting ~18% of the vote and three seats will help highlight the issue.
Ooh, I dunno, borrowing to invest?
.
ruled out by labour
Once again, you're speaking without reading up on the policies proposed. Borrowing to invest is part of the plan. There's £17.5 billion of additional borrowing in the first parliamentary term for the green prosperity plan for a start. But, anyway... borrowing going up is happening now and after the election whoever wins (see all the analysis and reporting of so called "black holes" in all the manifestos). Whether that is invested in our futures, or pissed up the wall, is down to who we all return as our MPs next month.
Go on then. Where are we going to get economic growth from?
Investing in energy and technology along with building a solid partnership with the EU, exactly what Labour have promised to do.
Where are we going to get the healthcare and hospitality workers we desperately need?
People have to want to come here first. This can be done first by dealing with the overt xenophobia of the previous policies, an increase in staff benefits and a better functioning system. All things we can do by ourselves.
How are we going to make up for the billions lost?
You can't. It's gone. What we can do is secure our energy, our infrastructure and make life better for people from the ground up which will appeal to current residents and potential future migrant workers.
nHow are we going to get the export trade back that we have lost?
By building a better relationship with our closest trading partner - exactly what Labour have promised to do. This is the first step in rejoining. Be trustworthy, be welcoming, be stable, be a good partner. Right now, we have none of that so why would they even entertain it?
And all ruled out by labour
Tj, you aren't going to get what you want in the next parliament, probably not the next one after that either.
Anyone that says otherwise, whatever their politics, is being disingenuous. There are no short cuts or simple solutions here. The paragraph of minevyou quoted is likely to be a generational change. Even then, it won't be completely what you want, others will feel the same, as although we all want "better", there will never be "perfect". The world just doesn't work that way.
(Damn you, I am going out for a walk now. 😉)
Right now, we have none of that so why would they even entertain it?
Exactly! It’s going to take a lot of effort to detoxify the relationship with the EU, but the first huge step is to get the rabid Brexiteers who delivered this shitshow out of government
Everything else is secondary, because without that the process can’t even begin
Investing in energy and technology along with building a solid partnership with the EU, exactly what Labour have promised to do.
Where are we going to get the money from? Raising taxes beyond a bit of fiddling around the edges and borrowing more ruled out by labour
People have to want to come here first. This can be done first by dealing with the overt xenophobia of the previous policies, an increase in staff benefits and a better functioning system. All things we can do by ourselves.
EU folk are not going to come here without freedom of movement so thats not going to happen either
By building a better relationship with our closest trading partner – exactly what Labour have promised to do. This is the first step in rejoining. Be trustworthy, be welcoming, be stable, be a good partner. Right now, we have none of that so why would they even entertain it?
Sure - lying about brexit " no economic case to rejoin" and continuing to be enthusiastic brexiteers ruling out any serious rapprochement is really going to do that
Oh, by the way, apologies to those voting for third or fourth placed parties when choosing not to choose their MP… I shouldn’t throw around blame and accusation so harshly… I’ve voted the same way many many times before… most of my life in fact… but I just find it interesting/worrying that after the last 15 years so many people are still doing it at this crucial election.
Some of us can afford to have principles, I'm in an SNP/Labour stronghold so I can happily vote with my conscience. But it's that experience that frustrates me so much, SNP were nobodies not that long ago, another wasted vote. Look at them now.
I know I bang on about this a lot but I've never had anyone tell me why that couldn't work elsewhere.
Poopscoop - of course I won't get everything I want but labour have ruled out all routes to improving the country. NO increase in taxation or borrowing and ruling out the biggest engine of growth so no increasing in budgets so no significant improvements
I do not think some of you realise how much of a right wing party labour has become.
NO increase in taxation or borrowing and ruling out the biggest engine of growth
Apart from the announced tax changes, and extra borrowing, and working closer with our neighbours.
Not enough of any of those three things in a first term for you (or me as it happens)... but say that... rather than "NO"... as it seriously weakens your points. Not enough, not fast enough... that we can agree on. More than the Tories? That we can agree on. Why not more and faster? That's the bit where the discussion is... if it's even relevant right now while the Conservatives are still the government, and the opposition parties can do the square root of nothing.
Sure – lying about brexit ” no economic case to rejoin”
For the sake of accuracy, the quote from Starmer was "There's no case to rejoin" Here's the quote
Sir Keir told broadcasters: "I have repeatedly said that there's no case for going back into the EU and that includes the single market and the customs union."
The word "economic" is not something that the leadership of the Labour party have ever used in this context in official statements.
Extra taxation - tiny amount of fiddling round the edges
Extra borrowing - not in the statements from Reeves I have seen - indeed categorically ruled out - got a link to different?
Working closer with our neighhbours? By categorically ruling out CU, SM and FoM there will be no rapprochement that will have any effect economically. Without these things the barriers to trade remain in place
Where are we going to get the money from? Raising taxes beyond a bit of fiddling around the edges and borrowing more ruled out by labour
By encouraging investment from the private sector. UK RnD Spending is currently around 3% of GDP, but almost 40% of that is government. In japan and South Korea, it's RnD spending is higher 3.77% and ~5% respectively, but government spending is lower ~20%. Why? Private investment. People/companies invest in prosperous, stable places. Lets get that sorted, huh?
Let's get our energy pricing model disentangled from Gas prices and aligned to the greener technologies that're being put in place. GBE (by Labour) coupled with what Octopus (see - private investment) are doing will help this. Stabilising energy will enable people to spend more (more tax revenue without raising taxes) and the economy will grow....
People/companies invest in prosperous, stable places. Lets get that sorted, huh?
To sort that needs rejoining the EU. Its the only way. No one is going to invest in a UK outside the EU.
Things I hope a Labour government will bring -
A level of competence. The latest Tory govt has the lowest parliamentary sitting time
The average duration of a Commons sitting day in the current parliamentary session, which began in November, has been 7 hours and 9 minutes, a record low since New Labour came to power in 1997, the FT found.
The end of the stupid Rwanda scheme
Kinder politics - less demonising of flavour of the month minorities
Extra taxation – tiny amount of fiddling round the edges
The folks I still know in Labour have said to me that they've got pretty robust data and polling that suggests that the public appetite for extra taxation for spending is very very limited.
Extra borrowing – not in the statements from Reeves I have seen – indeed categorically ruled out – got a link to different?
The statements I've seen from Reeves explicitly say that they'll only borrow to invest. In fact that's been her routine line for quite some time now. Same as Gordon Brown's rules
Working closer with our neighhbours?
See comments earlier about her saying things about rules and standards “I don’t think anyone voted leave because they were not happy that chemicals regulations were the same across Europe,” Reeves said, adding that immigration was a primary concern for her constituents who voted to leave. Business Matter article
No one is going to invest in a UK outside the EU.
They will but it will be the asset stripping venture capitalist types - the people the Tories love
No one is going to invest in a UK outside the EU.
That’s a final destination and will take decades
Right now what this country needs (is crying out for!) is the political stability that has been totally absent for the last 5-8 years while the idealogical headbangers have been at the wheel
Nobody is going to invest in a country with a party in charge that gave Liz Truss the keys to the economy
Once the grown ups are back in charge things will change
No one is going to invest in a UK outside the EU.
Of course they will. Centre of the financial planet, rule of law, as good an economy a the rest of the EU currently, speak English, highly educated workforce, good labour laws , good transport links, there's every reason to invest here.
Which is clearly why investment has fallen off a cliff since brexit. Good labour laws? Only if you are a rapacious employer. Our workers protections are rubbish compared to the EU. That was our main attractor for inward investment. In the EU but poor worker protections.
We are not the centre of the financial planet either
The statements I’ve seen from Reeves explicitly say that they’ll only burrow to invest. In fact that’s been her routine line for quite some time now. Same as Gordon Brown’s rules
Yes - so no extra money for NHS or Education budgets then.
In the short term no. There's no free money, and I fully expect Labour to start to say when they get into power "It's much worse than we expected"
But, I expect a Labour government to make better financial decisions about borrowing and spending on things like the NHS and education that the Tories will over the life time of a parliament and beyond. That's the bargain we're making when we vote for them isn't it? I trust them more than I trust the Tories, that's all I can do.
We are not the centre of the financial planet either
I'd bet money that you'd be able to find a study that shows London isn't, and I'd be able to find one that shows t still is. Regardless of whether it's absolute either way, it's still responsible for a huge section of our economic activity.
I do not think some of you realise how much of a right wing party labour has become.
Which is clearly why investment has fallen off a cliff since brexit.
The main reason is because since Brexit, but particularly since 2019, we’ve been governed by incompetent, ideologically rabid, financially illiterate right-wing, nationalist loons!
… admittedly you’re then into chicken and egg territory
Right - so no growth outside the EU, no investment in education or the NHS, ie continueing austerity which as we know is counter productive
I do not trust the current labour front bench an inch because they keep on lying as many of you have admitted. Stsarmer is a technocrat and a weather vane - his main issue is the right wing ( not centerist) cabal he has surrounded himself with. Cooper is "anything for a quid". Streeting is a paid for shill for private healthcare, Reeves is a right wing banker following right wing orthodoxy economically,
I do not think some of you realise how much of a right wing party labour has become.
Form the view from your end of the political spectrum maybe, but there are still huge swathes of the population that either 1. Couldn't tell you if they're left or right wing, or what that actually means or 2. Think the Labour party is run by a Trotskyist cabal hell bent on re-establishing the Soviet block on UK soil.
Given that both parties are talking up social housing, and renationalising the rail and utilities I don't think the Overton window has shifted quite as much as you think it has.
No binners – the main reason is that outside the EU we are not attractive to inward investment.
It's probably best not to try to present what you think as fact.
£2.6 Trillion of outside investment, making it one of the most attractive investment countries
Really? You really think that? Reeves, Streeting and others have been taking bribes from the financial services industry to create policies good for them ie no return to the cap on bankers bonuses etc etc. Reeves is following right wing economics, Streeting wants to privitise the NHS.
Streeting wants to privitise the NHS.
We've had this discussion before and you couldn't find any evidence that this is true the last time either.
Brexit has chilling effect on UK inward investment
https://www.ft.com/content/bdc9f940-bb92-11e9-b350-db00d509634e
Brexit hit UK investment by £29bn, says Bank of England policymaker
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64623488
And a zillion other pages
Nickc - is that link not about management of investment funds rather than actual investment in the UK?
Foreign investment into UK falls to lowest level in six years
Analysts blame Brexit for further decline in the number of projects
https://www.ft.com/content/6416a20a-9805-11e9-8cfb-30c211dcd229
We’ve had this discussion before and you couldn’t find any evidence that this is true the last time either.
He has said it! Multiple times. He is in the pay of private healthcare companies
Wes Streeting has warned that the NHS will get no extra funding from Labour without “major surgery” or reform, including more use of the private sector.
The shadow health secretary insisted he would not be put off by “middle-class lefties” who cry “betrayal” over using the private sector to bring down waiting lists – adding he was “up for the fight” with NHS unions.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/wes-streeting-nhs-labour-private-sector-b2524953.html
Labour will force NHS to use private sector, Wes Streeting says
I don't think Rachel Reeves is a banker in the same way that Sunak is. She turned down Goldman Sachs, and has worked in the BoE. She hasn't made sh1t loads betting against the UK like Sunak. You kind of need some economic competence to avoid the Truss scenarios, and she seems to be quite careful not to spook the markets.
Someone up thread talked about an audit once you get your feet under the desk - I'm sure there will be horrors in that audit, but I also hope that there will be a way forward for them to say that they will have to do things like the EU to fill the hole the Tories made.
It's not nice at the moment, and you can give me a hard time in 6 - 12 months time - but I really hope that the message and the direction of travel will change once they are in govt.
Cos hope is the only thing keeping us afloat at the moment. I'm voting LD cos they will likely unseat the tory (did it in Lewes in 97 too) but I'm really a Blairite. You can flame me for that, but i like to look at the charts of where we were in 2010 vs where we are now and think it wasn't so bad, and hope that Starmer might find some of that within his administration
Your occasional reminder that most high street NHS services that most people use on a routine basis; The GP, the dentist, the chemist, the audiologist the optician etc etc are run as for-profit organisations (private healthcare) most of them are partnerships, or sole traders without whom the NHS doesn't function. In fact from my seat in GP world the bit that needs the most urgent reform, the bit that mostly doesn't work, is the bit that's publicly owned.
In fact I'd go further and say that the bit that does most of the heavy lifting when it comes to the impact we have on the public's healthcare is the bit that currently attracts less funding, it's about time the it was recognised that in bang for buck terms we'd get a better outcome shifting a good percentage of the funding to GPs and dentists.
The thing is that increased use of the private sector is likely to push costs in the NHS up too, at least if the Australian experience is anything to go by, and when Streeting says 'middle class lefties' I think what he means is 'people with a working knowledge of how healthcare staffing works in the UK'.
To sort that needs rejoining the EU. Its the only way. No one is going to invest in a UK outside the EU.
Oh, TJ - you've got to stop spouting nonsense. It's not the only way. It's not even required. You're taking about investment in the form of manufacturing goods for export, which, quite rightly is a way to increase economic output and was highly beneficial to us when in the EU, but it's not the only way.
The UK is the worlds 6th largest economy, has one of the worlds top5 innovation ecosystems, has the worlds 3rd (maybe 4th) best collection of education and research environments, leads the world on impactful science research (SCIE), has some of the lowest wages and lowest taxes in countries with comparable research profiles (why were were an investment target for manufacturing when in the EU). We also have access to the EU research network again and have significant partnerships with Japan, Korea, India (the worlds fastest growing economy) and the US for R&I. Could we be better? Sure, but to say the UK can't attract research and subsequent private investment is utter rubbish. Now, and despite your best efforts to keep a Conservative government, we'll hopefully have less turmoil, more governance, more planning and action, stable policies and thus attract even more investment. We're also easy to engage with (when not being xenophobic) and relatively open.
Yours, a fervent Remainer.
susepic
Full Member
Cooper is “anything for a quid”This Yvette Cooper? I think she’s one of the best things about Labour TJ.
Just watched all of that, even on a purely technical level alone, that's a hugely impressive public speaking performance.
So many opinions; so few facts.
Are you new here?
I have to say that I am making a mental list of people that I'd love to meet for a beer at some point (and some less so)
Let's put our dogmas aside people and vote the Tory/Reform/UKIP fokkers into oblivion.
Together we can make the UK a better place when they have been shown the door.
tjagainFull Member
Foreign investment into UK falls to lowest level in six years
Analysts blame Brexit for further decline in the number of projects
https://www.ft.com/content/6416a20a-9805-11e9-8cfb-30c211dcd229/blockquote >
March - 2019! There's almost no reliable data since then as 2020-2022 was a pandemic and since then the Conservatives have been playing musical chairs with the PM. BUT, the UK's % of European FDI was 15% in 2022, 17.3% in 2023 and is predicted to be 19%+ in 2024. Even outside the EU, we're still taking in almost 20% of total FDI that comes into the Europe!
has some of the lowest wages and lowest taxes in countries
That's really not great for UK workers or attracting qualified foreign talent. Taxes (preferably based on wealth and ability to pay) pay for public services.
It's been very clear that Ireland and other EU countries have greatly benefitted from inward investment that would have almost certainly gone to the UK but for Brexit, lowest wages or not.
The London Labour view
https://www.london.gov.uk/new-report-reveals-uk-economy-almost-ps140billion-smaller-because-brexit
The Tory government view
You can't dress that up as success even if you're a Tory.
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Christ, the endless joyless and spirit-crushingly tedious pessimism and defeatism of the usual suspects is just depressing
After 14 years of this shit you still want your socialist utopia/moon on a ****ing stick that this country will never ever vote for
Anyway… I see this thread has once again, somewhat predictably, descended into ‘that’ thread 🙄
Maybe Starmer is just a bit **** though?
Cooper - totally corrupt, will do anything for a quid. her and Balls became rich off fiddling expenses. She was one of the worst. Go look up her record. She will take money from anywhere and anyone if it lines her pockets
Like Streeting she is in it for riches not for the good of the country. a vile woman and along with Streeting one of the reasons I will find it very hard to vote labour. two bought and paid for poiliticians
Christ, the endless joyless and spirit-crushingly tedious pessimism and defeatism of the usual suspects is just depressing
After 14 years of this shit you still want your socialist utopia/moon on a ****ing stick that this country will never ever vote for
You're on my beer list Binners (you have the right to refuse)
Binners - or conversely I find it depressing how many of you think this current labour party are anything but tory lite and who think their policies will make the UK better when they have ruled out everything needed to improve the lot of the country. That and the corruption. "we are more competent and less corrupt tories" is not really something to inspire
Just to correct a misunderstanding, I think you'll find Trotskyists Max Schachtman in the US and Tony Cliff in the UK defined Russia as 'bureaucratic state capitalist'. They would hardly want to create a Soviet bloc over here.
or conversely I find it depressing how many of you think this current labour party are anything but tory lite and who think their policies will make the UK better when they have ruled out everything needed to improve the lot of the country.
But TJ - there is no focking alternative - unless you're voting SNP - no one standing in Sussex last time i looked. And I'm voting LD. But who else are you voting for - wake the F up.
suspic - its fortunate my constituency makes zero difference to a labour or tory government as its only going to return Labour of SNP. If I was in a labour / tory marginal I would have a difficult decision but I would find it6 very hard to vote for a centre right brexiteer pro austerity party which is what labour are particularly with Streeting as health secretary when he is only interested in doing the bidding of his paymasters - private healthcare companies. What he is proposing "reform and privitisation" will make the NHS worse not better
it’s about time the it was recognised that in bang for buck terms we’d get a better outcome shifting a good percentage of the funding to GPs and dentists.
Hallelujah!
how many of you think this current labour party are anything but tory lite
Would you rather have Tory lite or hardcore rightwing Tory with massive incompetence? Those are your choices.
its fortunate my constituency makes zero difference to a labour or tory government as its only going to return Labour of SNP.
So why generalise. Lots of us on here are having to make tough choices, and know we can't have what we'd really really want, but voting in the here and now for things that are likely to be better than rolling over for some dogma and letting tories have another go.....
suspic – its fortunate my constituency makes zero difference to a labour or tory government as its only going to return Labour of SNP
A luxury most of us don’t have. It’s Labour or Tory here. Full stop. Nobody else in it. The Tory majority in 2019 was 100 votes, so it’s as tight as it gets here and every vote counts
Enjoy your self-indulgence
Ah @binners has broken out his signpost meme. I want to be reasonably diplomatic in saying this, as I really enjoy most of your posts. But that meme, and your general tone on the politics threads are unbelievably arrogant. You're not the thread police, your opinion is no more valid than any other, so wind your neck in a bit eh!
but voting in the here and now for things that are likely to be better than rolling over for some dogma and letting tories have another go…..
Several problems here. Firstly as a self described Blairite its rather easy for you to take this line considering what is being offered is new labour mk2. So no need to adjust your own dogma which leads on to the second problem.
That Starmer and co are doing the traditional new labour "who else will they vote for" approach when it comes to anywhere left of centre.
There is no attempt to win the swing voters by changing their minds but simply by announcing labour has changed to suit them. So again serves people with similar dogmatic positions to you well but not others.
Thirdly we have the issue that we do need to think beyond the here and now and think long term. Triangulation of the votes to target those centrist voters consistently shifts the overton window rightwards so whats going to happen in 2029 especially since the damage caused by the tories is only going to be partially fixed by then. Easy to blame the left and then move further right.
Finally the simple fact is if the left continue to vote unquestioning for Starmer and co they will continue to be ignored. Its only once the risk of withdrawing votes is realised that positions will change.
All this talk of socialist utopias and Trotskyist Soviet blocs (Stalin's agent did murder Trotsky btw) is just word salads and probably best ignored. It is fascinating how Starmerites spew more bile at socialists whilst welcoming Tories into the LP.
susepic
Full Member
I have to say that I am making a mental list of people that I’d love to meet for a beer at some point (and some less so)
Even in political threads, which are noted for their... passion(!?😁)it's a good bunch on here in truth. I really meant it earlier when I mentioned that pretty much every person that contributes to the thread (there is the occasional visiting anomaly!) are genuine and passionate about wanting a better country. We just differ on how we think it should be done or even what "better" is!😁
I'm really just saying that we have far, far more in common than it appears sometimes. Generally, I'm more concerned by people (irl) that seem to have no political opinion at all and are content to be a butterfly in the storm. It's a less stressful life I'm sure but how can you not be political these days? It's almost a moral duty. Lol
I had a conversation with my lad months back, he has two young children now. He's never been into politics and I don't like lecturing him as he's a good lad and very much his own man. That said we got chatting about the GE and I said to him something along the lines of the fact that everything is politics even if it doesn't seem so:
His kids' schooling quality in the years to come? Politics.
That 12 hour wait he now has as a parent in A&E? Politics.
Stuck in the rental trap and worried about no fault evictions? Politics.
Anyway, he and his fiancée are now registered to vote. Id never tell him who to vote for of course, though I'm fairly sure his world view is similar to mine.
Please will someone go and set up a squatters encampment on Farage's lawn. They can then suggest he negotiates away half his land to them...FFS.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/article/2024/jun/26/farage-urges-zelenskiy-to-seek-ukraine-peace-deal-with-russia
Can I just check - this is suggesting Lib Dem as opposition?
Wow.
https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/prediction_main.html