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Someone famous once said that the past is another country.
So trying to make a potentially dodgy ecclestone contribution from at least 14 years ago (icba to find out how long ago) relevant for an election in 2024 is irrelevant.
Let's talk about corruption in Sunak's Tory party looks like, and what corruption in Starmer's Labour party looks like, and there is clearly no equivalence.....
Suggestions please how to get people to engage and vote. People who come out with shit like
'nah won't bother voting, they're all as bad as each other.'
So maddening that they acknowledge that infrastructure (education and NHS mostly) is on its knees but refuse to engage.
Is there a list of Tory misdemeanors? It was like one a week at one point.
the incredible incompetence, arrogance and outright corruption of the Tories
That's the toxic part. Kier & co had beers in the office too, Labour will need to cosy up to business if elected to secure foreign investment, Reeves has made it clear tax and public spending will remain at near austerity, and Kier won't be changing anything on trans rights and immigration other than at soundbite level. So I guess you feel the same about Labour?
This is to be expected as the UK electorate won’t vote for Corbyn type socialism or Le Pen style nationalism.
I suggest you compare what the Tories have done over the last 14 years with RN's manifesto. Le Pen style nationalism is lightweight compared with the Tories.
I think the polls are getting worse in their predictions. I cant believe Labour at 42% (why not over 50%? that’s where they should be with this bunch of idiots against them), but Reform above the Tories, no way.
I think it's important to differentiate between samples like that (non geo-specific) and polls for particular seats.
A Labour lead of 42% generally is not going to translate into labour wining 42% of seats, it will likely be more given the number of marginal seats, Likewise for reform, they are not going to end up with 19% of seats, more likley three or four if they are lucky.
That's some of the trouble with FPTP, it's not nessesarily representative... PR could be a double edged sword, but I think that's only because we are so used to a binary system with 2 main parties, that a lot of people will vote labout to get rid of the tories, it's not that they would nessesaily vote labour anyway..
For example my local area looked like this last general election:
So I will be voting labour, despite being more of a lib-dem.
I hope this is not lost on Starmers intellect when he makes his victory speech. This is not an election in favour of labour, its an election to stop the country swerving ever more right-ward.
Starmer's beergate was a working meeting that they had food brought in for, entirely in compliance with the regs at the time. And god forbid, they had a beer with their curry. It was fully investigated and in compliance.
It is absolutely not comparable with parties in number 10 with booze being smuggled in in wheelie cases. They too were investigated and multiple fines issued for being illegal gatherings.
I don't know why you're trying to claim equivalence. They're not.
Cosying up - or as I'd view it engaging with business to ensure policies are meeting needs of the industry - is part of government. We do it all the time (us to Gov, and also us to industry partners). What it isn't, is funnelling massive amounts of cash to mates and mates of mates via back channels.
I don't know why you're trying to claim equivalence. They're not.
I could go on....
“It was shitty and bent. But it wasn’t me who was trying to create an equivalence between £1m that to our knowledge didn’t personally enrich Blair/Brown 25 years ago – and the conduct of the Tories since 2019.”
I wasnt comparing Blair to the 2019 bunch, I was saying that both parties are, or were, corrupt. Do you think Labour would have given the money back if they hadnt been found out? Of course they wouldnt. If they had principles, they would have told Ecclestone to FO.
I thought the Blair Government was going to herald a new era of decent politics, with none of the sleeze of the previous Tory Government, I was sadly let down by them with their tobacco exemptions after being paid by Ecclestone. As I said earlier, neither Party can hold the moral high ground when they do such things, you either need to be seen to be clean, or you’re in the sewer with the Tories who now seem to have got to an all time high with their Contracts going to friends etc.
It is absolutely not comparable with parties in number 10 with booze being smuggled in in wheelie cases.
Kiers beers didn't arrive under his arm through the front door. And he was electioneering at the time, not running the country, so they could all have been at home. The thought process was identical, the only difference is that there weren't 20 civil service staffers present in the office as well as the party members.
Starmer’s beergate was a working meeting that they had food brought in for, entirely in compliance with the regs at the time. And god forbid, they had a beer with their curry. It was fully investigated and in compliance.
It is absolutely not comparable with parties in number 10 with booze being smuggled in in wheelie cases. They too were investigated and multiple fines issued for being illegal gatherings.
I don’t know why you’re trying to claim equivalence. They’re not.
Cosying up – or as I’d view it engaging with business to ensure policies are meeting needs of the industry – is part of government. We do it all the time (us to Gov, and also us to industry partners). What it isn’t, is funnelling massive amounts of cash to mates and mates of mates via back channels.
I don’t know why you’re trying to claim equivalence. They’re not.
I could go on….
A million times this.
Or 29 million if you're Michelle Mone.
See also the likes of Jenrick admitting to illegally helping Dirty Desmond avoid tens of millions in tax (that he deliberately said was because he didn't want to help deprived communities) - and then carry on without missing a beat versus Angela Rayners house sale from 15 years ago. That is another equivalence I've seen rightwingers make - presumably because they both involve 'housing'.
I categorically will not let the "they're all as bad as each other" trope go unchallenged when I hear someone lazily trot it out. It simply is not true.
Well, my postal vote arrived, for NE Fife. Every candidate has 'an address in the NE Fife constituency', except the reform candidate, who has an address in Horsham...
No, they were delivered with a takeaway. That had been arranged as a takeaway because rules prevented a meal being served.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/61334893
On 30 April, England was under "Step 2" rules, external, which had been introduced on 12 April.
Gathering indoors with people from outside your household or support bubble was against the law.
There was an exemption, external for "work purposes", although working from home was recommended in the guidance, but the rules did not mention socialising at work.
And there was an exemption if "the gathering is reasonably necessary for the purposes of campaigning in an election".
You can argue the thought process was identical, I'd disagree. The rules definitely weren't identical hence whatever the intent one party was prosecuted and the other found to be in compliance. Simple. As. That.
and
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EPA9uy5Jcw
We’ve just been googling the local Reform candidate and we can’t find out anything other than her name. She’s literally invisible
I popped out delivering more Labour leaflets earlier and arrived home to have a bored looking agency worker walk up the path to hand me a Tory leaflet.
God knows how much they’re spending on all these leaflets and paying agency staff to deliver them (presumably as they’ve no volunteers). It seems very odd in a marginal constituency with the smallest majority in the country (100 votes) which they are absolutely guaranteed to lose (weeks old local polling had Labour on 48%, the Tories on 27%)
You can argue the thought process was identical, I’d disagree.
Thought process was long days in office, let's have some food and drink with group we've been working with all day anyhow so social distancing has gone out window. Absolutely identical in every way. The different outcome is solely a reflection of covid era legislative quirks about scotch eggs being a meal and so on.
We’ve just been googling the local Reform candidate and we can’t find out anything other than her name. She’s literally invisible
One of the brighter ones then who deleted their social media history?
@dissonance - that’s exactly the conclusion we reached. I mean who has absolutely no trace on any form of social meedya nowadays, unless you’re deliberately trying to remain anonymous or erase a dodgy past? Especially if you’re a Parliamentary candidate. There’s not a trace of her anywhere
Thought process was
You know what people are thinking now?
🤦
It won't be difficult to guess what I'm thinking about you... 🤣
It seems very odd in a marginal constituency with the smallest majority in the country (100 votes) which they are absolutely guaranteed to lose
Probably not that odd then is it if it's that nailed on as a Labour gain!
Not had anything in the post from our Green party. I'm aware of the likely reasons why, but still a bit frustrating.
I’ve been leaflet-and-letter bombed by the LibDems like never before! I had both a leaflet and a letter through the door today, I think probably the same ones I’ve had at least once or twice a week since the election campaign started!
I’ve had one sad little leaflet from the Conservative candidate, and amazingly one from a Labour candidate today, who I didn’t even know existed!
I think the end result is going to be fairly obvious, at least in the Chippenham constituency.
Go on, your turn, describe the other video I linked
Thought process was long days in office, let’s have some food and drink with group we’ve been working with all day anyhow so social distancing has gone out window.
Kier wasn't on his own and I'm sure he and his team would have been sharing some colourful views on the covid rules, given STW very much was at the time.
The point is the toxicity. To call a group of people arrogant and incompetent, and another group not, solely based on whether their booze and grease arrived as a takeaway rather than the office catering, is patently absurd.
For me there is a big diference between:
A) a hand full of colleagues, who have been together all day anyway, having a curry and a bottle of beer or two.
And
B) A full on party with 20+ people, karaoke, dancing, cases of booze and a fricking buffet?
So that's the only difference? How the booze and grease arrived?
Go on, describe the video I linked and see if you can spot another difference or two?
That might help you towards why they are viewed as arrogant.
Competence.
What do you think of the PPE procurement routes. Was the outcome, overpaying by millions that mysteriously ended up in the pockets of tory donors and their mates, while the PPE ended up in the bin that of a competent process?
Or maybe that was the intention, and the desired outcome of the procurement process was met. That it was unusable is unfortunate, obviously, but that wasn't really the intent of the process?
skooby39
Free Member
the incredible incompetence, arrogance and outright corruption of the ToriesThat’s the toxic part. Kier & co had beers in the office too, Labour will need to cosy up to business if elected to secure foreign investment, Reeves has made it clear tax and public spending will remain at near austerity, and Kier won’t be changing anything on trans rights and immigration other than at soundbite level. So I guess you feel the same about Labour?
I think we can both agree that when we look at the Tories and Labour we are evidently looking through prisms that make the others viewpoint almost incomprehensible.
From my perspective, if Labour are indeed no better than the Tories and the current government have made good policy decisions, governed with integrity and generally improved the lives of the many then the Conservatives will win the election.
However, if a substantial proportion of the electorate fundamentally disagree with your viewpoint and see them through the same prism as myself, then the Conservatives will be dealt a resounding defeat on the 4th July.
For me there is a big diference between
Yep. Two groups of people having drinks and booze after a long day of work. Crowding round a table of food and crowding round a table with pizza, garlic bread and wedges. As said above only material difference is that one office had 20 civil service staffers as well as the party members.
This is the fundamental problem in this election. Both parties have almost identical policies. The one thing we know for certain is that we won't wake up in early July to find a socialist revolution, or surge of cash into public services, and the small boats will be arriving each summer for years. The only difference is soundbite technicalities about catering.
the incredible incompetence, arrogance and outright corruption of the Tories
That’s the toxic part.
Sounds pretty accurate to me.
Kier & co had beers in the office too
"Small beer" compared to the disastrous mismanagement of the Tories over the past 14 years. That's why there is so much "toxic" comment on them.
The point is the toxicity. To call a group of people arrogant and incompetent, and another group not, solely based on whether their booze and grease arrived as a takeaway rather than the office catering, is patently absurd.
Sorry but I must pick you up on that.
My disdain for the Tory party is not toxic, it's perfectly logical, indeed if enough people feel the same disdain it's actually a healthy outcome for the country as it will be expressed in their votes.
To criticise my view as toxic whilst totally disregarding the reasons I and millions of others feel very similarly is verging on absurd.
Re the betting, how are some names out but others not released?
I like when the usual suspects are wheeled out and get asked about this, they are coy about what they knew of the date. It’s almost like
“some of the junior staff knew & betted. Were you not important enough to know the date?”
You're purposefully ignoring what the rules were at the time.. (tory rules, I might add, rules that were made law by the very same people who so blatantly broke them) Numbers of people.. And association of people.
Most of the people in the tory Party gate videos look like interns, for want of a better term, there was no critical requirement for them to have a full blown party there and then. They may aswell have opened up fabric night club.
FB-ATB
Full Member
Re the betting, how are some names out but others not released?
My take? One has all but admitted he is a greedy little devil... the other 2 or 3 are unlucky/been stupid enough to make a boat load of bets. I reckon at that point Sunak thought, "shit" and decided that delaying how deep the rot is till after the election was his only viable, if utterly immortal, option. More so if a minister if involved...
Kettle is on.
Hold the horses. Am pointing out both parties have same core objectives, merits of any a different conversation.
https://labour.org.uk/updates/stories/labours-immigration-and-border-policy-stop-small-boats/
Labour’s immigration and border policy: How we’ll create a fair system and stop the small boat crossings
Yep. Two groups of people having drinks and booze after a long day of work. Crowding round a table of food and crowding round a table with pizza, garlic bread and wedges. As said above only material difference is that one office had 20 civil service staffers as well as the party members.
If I may, the material differences are that the regulations differed at the time of the Labour do compared to the Tory do, and that the Tories repeatedly held parties and repeatedly lied about having done so. Labour had a few beers with a curry - reportedly there were active police avoidance measures, fisticuffs and vomiting at No 10.
There is no equivelance.
Oh dear, that must be a record for speed of change of subject. Have you considered contacting Guinness world records? I’m sure they would love to hear from you!
Thanks. However the subject hasn't changed from Toxicity. There's a lot of loud voices of the view that the Tories are the nasty racists talking about immigration. Labour has the exact same "stop the boats" policy, that differs only on technicalities.
As said above, most of the toxic comments tend to come from the left.
Hold the horses. Am pointing out both parties have same core objectives, merits of any a different conversation.
Just curious why, apropos of nothing, the small boats issue was casually dropped in. It's not an unnatural thing to query.
FWIW - Patel and Braverman deliberately exacerbated the asylum / illegal immigration situation by, effectively, switching off the processing of asylum claims and thus withdrawing legal options. If we had an just/unjust asylum system that was actually being implemented then people could make their minds up on that. But deliberately crashing a workable system for political gain is despicable and it is yet another reason that I will never vote Tory.
As said above, most of the toxic comments tend to come from the left.
OK. where to start.
Jenrick 'virtue' signalling to intolerant people by saying a kids mural on a wall in a grim asylum centre is too welcoming.
Numerous characterisations of 'swarms' or 'inundations'.
Threats of leaving the ECHR.
Remind me - which 'side' did these.
Edit: And presumably you never read anything about the death threats and threats to family that Sadiq Khan receives daily? In terms of sheer volume, nastiness, and credibility threat no Tory MP receives anything remotely like it. Disrespect? Yes. A few vicious comments? Yes. Hundreds of direct threats week in, week out? No.
Whilst we are going off on a tangent, how is the Bibby barge going in terms of cost per asylum seeker v's simply putting them up in a hotel and processing thier applications in a fair and timley manner? And what is the impact on the UK tax payer?
It's almost as if there was never any sort of serious plan?
Numerous characterisations of ‘swarms’ or ‘inundations’.
IIRC, Braverman was asked directly either by a Holocaust survivor or the child of a Holocaust survivor to stop using language like "swarm" or "invasion" and refused to do so.
My postal vote arrived too. So far the leaflets through the door consist of:
Reelect SNP incumbent, here's some shit she's done.
Vote for Labour nobody, bunch of vague statements based on national policies. Misses the point that the NHS is a devolved matter.
Vote for Tory councillor turned MP wannabe. List of 6 issues he's going to be tackling. Obviously got briefed for the wrong election because every single one is a devolved matter.
Vote for Reform nobody. Something about small boats and undemocratic ECHR. Address withheld but in the area.
Other candidates include usual Edinburgh based Lib Dem plus local SDP, Socialist Labour and Greens.
skooby39
Free MemberAs said above, most of the toxic comments tend to come from the left.
Tory candidate being a bit sweaty/toxic about the... tories.
https://twitter.com/ColchesterLab/status/1804513079566258227
I think people smuggling in shitty boats is generally a pretty bad thing regardless of your stance on asylum seeking, no?
Not really, no. If you support people making their way to the UK by any means necessary, how can you get on your high horse and criticise those who make those means available?
Sorry, just thought this was slightly odd and a little amusing!
Totally get Sunak is teetotal but why try and channel his inner Farage by having a pint glass for his mineral water?
More importantly, looking like Sunak is going to have to U turn on the betting wall of silence. The damage is already done as per usual of course but the longer he holds out, the more damage is done.
Epic.
Skooby39 tell us who got prosecuted for rule breaking socialising! Then maybe stfu
our election leaflets
its a new constituency but our (tory) MP who is never here is stepping down
Heritage party- howling at the moon nonsense pro putin, pro climate change
Lib dem access to gp & nhs, water quality
labour : build more affordable housing, homelessness, dentist & gp dentist access
Tory , blocking new housing , hes obsessed with this! flashiest leaflet by far, trifold lots of pics of current cabinet members and the candidate, tiny conservative logo
John Oliver speaks for a nation
https://twitter.com/jpxan71/status/1805339301485727909?t=yZtwkBH2h8J6NNr5M2iedw&s=19
Totally get Sunak is teetotal but why try and channel his inner Farage by having a pint glass for his mineral water?
To be fair, if my choice of drink was limited to greeneking IPA or some sort of warm crappy cider, I'd be teetotal too! 😀
Skooby39 tell us who got prosecuted for rule breaking socialising! Then maybe stfu
Thank you, this one though we went through a bit earlier. As a recap, someone else helpfully provided the technicalities on the rules, but essentially Kier got away with it because his beers came with a takeaway rather than using the office catering service. Whether you feel there's a moral difference beyond the admin point is likely political. No need for stfu, that's like shouting 'scum' in Parliament and wondering why MPs are being attacked in their own offices.
Kier "got away with it" because there was nothing to get away with. The rules at the time were followed. Compare that to the people who set all the rules yet failed to follow them... failed is the wrong word... they planned and knew that they weren't following them, it was no accident, and tried to cover it all up. Staff in no10 received 126 fixed penalty notices, including the Prime Minister. The Daily Mail did a very good job of adding to the "they're all the same" feeling at large in the UK with their many false equivalence front page stories... but it was in all nonsense in the eyes of the law and anyone who can read the facts straight.
this one though we went through a bit earlier. As a recap, someone else helpfully provided the technicalities on the rules, but essentially Kier got away with it because his beers came with a takeaway rather than using the office catering service.
good grief thats a rather desperate attempt to equate not breaking the law 1 time at dinner with continuous piss ups all through lockdown under Johnson's government....
let me guess you also hung on the month long daily mails daily updates about rayner once selling a council house??
Funnily enough the electorate have seen through all that guff for the easily led, in the real world the pollsters are having trouble modelling just how low the Tory vote is going to fall
My view may be political but it doesn't avoid the facts that one gathering was prosecuted widely and the other was investigated and no offences found. Which I maintain justifies the arrogance, on the basis they made the rules and then didn't follow them. That's the arrogance, "the rules don't apply to us"
Perhaps you'll give us your view, political or otherwise, on the competence question. I've asked twice and I know you read my posts to be able to quote them, so third time lucky....
What do you think of the PPE procurement routes. Was the outcome, overpaying by millions that mysteriously ended up in the pockets of tory donors and their mates, while the PPE ended up in the bin, that of a competent process? Or was that always the point of it, and it was a very competent con at the British taxpayer's expense?
Wow I thought I’d have a quick read in case I’d missed anything, but seems the usual shouting matches found on social media.
It’s a great effort from the Tory voting types to try to shout louder with the hope of just boring and putting everyone off, which is probably quite successful. “They’re all the same” is all I seem to read. Shame on the public for being brainwashed.
Hope the tactical voting plans destroy everything to do with them and they are never ever in a position to return.
Wow..... of all the examples to use to try to show equivalence...
Partygate vs currygate?
And then on immigration?
I've got time for the "there is not enough clear-air between the tory and labour policies" discussion, but this "they're all the same" narrative is completely deluded - to the point that it's just a fig-leaf used by many to cover themselves while they vote for somebody because they are different/tell it like it is/will shake things up, and is exactly the same mindset that caused people to vote for Brexit as some sort of protest vote ("ha! I've shat my own pants - that'll teach you!").
Imagine being so stupid to wail that Brexit has been a disaster - but then being convinced to vote for Farrage? Or thinking that the Tories "flagship" policy on Rwanda was no different to what Labour were proposing on immigration? Or Tory PPE corruption vs Angela Rainer's council house. I actually don't think it's stupidity - I think it's this weird tribalism where people will perform increasingly baffling mental gymnastics to fit the facts to their opinions, rather than the other way around.
it’s just a fig-leaf used by many to cover themselves
Absolutely. The we are always right voters who strangely enough always pick the winning side the rags told them too. Once again the poor buggers have been conned by slimy politicians, who'd of thought it? Keeps happening doesn't it!?!
“they’re all the same” narrative is completely deluded
To the likes of you and I who actually look at it for more than 2 minutes they are clearly not the same. The policies are not the same, the high level goals for how society should work are not the same, the MPs are not the same.
But for those that just glance at this stuff (a lot of voters), they see an MP on TV avoiding questions where a simple and honest answer could be given, they see that they are all promising to make things better while things get worse and they don't really know the fundamental difference between the parties therefore they are "all the same"
How could a party get people to think they are different, maybe be more clearly different?
Totally get Sunak is teetotal but why try and channel his inner Farage by having a pint glass for his mineral water
I’d imagine (thinking like Malcolm Tucker) that given his stature and general demeanour, it’s to avoid the visual impression of a child who’s been given some fizzy pop, a packet of Monster Munch and some money for the pool table while the grown ups are talking
I’d imagine (thinking like Malcolm Tucker) that given his stature and general demeanour, it’s to avoid the visual impression of a child who’s been given some fizzy pop, a packet of Monster Munch and some money for the pool table while the grown ups are talking
Yeah - that makes sense....... but also highlights the fact that his campaign team are so abjectly crap that they arranged a photo op in a pub, but didn't think to bring some alcohol free beer for him.
Is it one of those perspective photos? That's actually a half pint and he's sat about 6 feet in front of everyone else.
(I do generally disagree with having a go a people's appearance but for Rishi it's just too tempting)
As to “They’re all the same”, an example of a post that popped up on my FB feed.
”Omg . Always knew these parliamentary idiots were stupid but getting caught betting on the election dates . Well why and who wants to bother voting for any of these muppets. Be better off saving your time and ink ladies and gents and just voting for your favourite orangutan at your local zoo 😀”
it’s just a fig-leaf used by many to cover themselves
Sometimes, sometimes not.
Sometimes it is people genuinely trying to convince themselves.
Sometimes it is a fig leaf - but why vote for someone/something you then feel the need to excuse yourself for?
Nowt as strange as folk...
Sometimes it is a fig leaf – but why vote for someone/something you then feel the need to excuse yourself for?
"You don't stand for something, you fall for anything."
As a wise political commentator once said.
how can you get on your high horse and criticise those who make those means available?
Well because the people smugglers are breaking the law and deliberately circumventing the processes we have; and also recklessly endangering lives with very unsafe practices. Which result in many deaths.
They could do so much better. Have we even tried information campaigns in countries that are the source of the immigrants explaining what makes a valid claim and what will get them sent home?
They could do so much better. Have we even tried information campaigns in countries that are the source of the immigrants explaining what makes a valid claim and what will get them sent home?
That's a great idea. I think we should build information display boards on the borders of all the current conflict zones in the world. Or even manned info booths.
Leaving Gaza Sir? Are you aware of how hostile the UK is to undocumented people fleeing for their lives. Have you reconsidered your plan to reach the UK via a torturous route at the hands of illegal people smuggling gangs? It's not very hygeinic and those shipping containers van get quite humid.
Why don't you go back to your completely crushed home, rearrange the dust and broken walls, pop the kettle on, you'll have to imagine you've a) got a kettle and B) a gas supply, then read these pamphlets about how dour life in the UK is? I'm sure that you and your family will soon realise that staying put is the best course of action.
Big hugs
The UK Government
But for those that just glance at this stuff (a lot of voters)
Indeed - which is the Dominic Cummings playbook.
"I need punchy, 3 words, never mind about detail or 'truth' whatever that is, I want to deliver 3 words a hundred times, not 300 words once"
Not a direct quote - but very much his MO. All nuance is lost (deliberately). It also serves a purpose later on - when the miracle doesn't happen they can always say "well we didn't specifically promise you that".
Lazy politics for lazy/busy voters.
PPE is on the BBC this morning. If you don't like waste, then look away now.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cll476qzm85o
but didn’t think to bring some alcohol free beer for him.
Why if he doesnt like it regardless of the alcohol. Using a tankard is odd though. A half pint would make more sense. That or a coke rather than water/lemonade.
Is this the photo from a couple of weeks back or is he continually using one?
Some people drink water by the pint. I do. What’s the point of a thimble of water on a warm June day?
As a recap, someone else helpfully provided the technicalities on the rules, but essentially Kier got away with it because his beers came with a takeaway rather than using the office catering service.
In other news, some people get away with driving fast on a motorway because they stay beneath the speed limit.
Great tip that actually, if you want to “get away with it” staying inside the law makes it ridiculously easy.
Also TJ plus 1 on the subject of pints of water. We have some standards.