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Reform up to second according to YouGov
there is no queue jumping by paying to get shorter waits.
From the article:
But for Canadians who can afford it, some medical care has become easier than ever to access. A growing number of clinics nationwide are selling MRI scans, prescriptions, pap smears and even surgeries—services once considered primarily the purview of the public health sector—to those who pay out of pocket. Canadians are spending in the ballpark of $100 to speak to a nurse practitioner, who will offer the kinds of care a family doctor typically provides; upward of $600 for an MRI on demand, bypassing lengthy waitlists; and $20,000 or more to travel outside their province to see a surgeon for a hip or knee replacement. There’s never been such a willingness to pay for timely medical care in this country—because sometimes it’s the only way to get it.
Privately paid health care is nothing new in Canada...
https://macleans.ca/society/health/private-health-care-canada/
yes - quite astonishing. It really could be an extinction event for the tories - Fandabidozi
The Canadian system is strange even by the standards of other countries with socialized healthcare. France, Germany, the U.K. and Australia, among others, all take great national pride in ensuring medical coverage for every citizen, but you can still cut a cheque for a boutique appendectomy if you feel like it.
“The (Canadian) system is unique in the world in that it bans coverage of … core services by private insurance companies, allowing supplemental insurance only for perquisites such as private hospital rooms,”
The (Canadian) system is unique in the world in that it bans coverage of … core services by private insurance companies, allowing supplemental insurance only for perquisites such as private hospital rooms,
You really should read the Macleans article, it's very illuminating. It's not true that "Canada has no private healthcare", it's not true that people don't get e.g. quicker surgeries by paying for them, it's not true that "all hospital type care is done by the state", and the so-called "core services" provided by the state don't include such "perquisites" like, err, treatment by paramedics and ambulance transportation...
https://macleans.ca/society/health/private-health-care-canada/
Or I could talk to my friends who live there.
On Scottish education – it shows its a structural issue not a party one – and guess what – its mainly underfunding. Decades of cuts thatthe scottish government has no real control over – health and education are the largest parts of the Scottish governments budget and these have undert huge financial pre4ssure as a result of decisions taken in Westmionster
So if it's all just a question of money, why did the Scottish government do so much worse in secondary education than the authorities in England when England also had austerity and Scotland has higher per capita funding than England?
Is there ever anything in Scotland for which the SNP is ever accountable?
Read the quote above. I spoke with a bunch of healthcare professionals while out there. this is what they told me. ambulances for example are free as is medivac from the yukon. Parmedics are free. You cannot buy surgery it can only be provided by the state. there are no private hospitals
"that "article" reads ;like a promo piece and its obviously very slanted. Believe it if you like - I prefer to believe what those who work in thesystem told me that some clearly far right rag with an obvious agenda
Is there ever anything in Scotland for which the SNP is ever accountable?
Oh yes - lots of stuff ( want to buy a new ferry?) but without control over large scale funding then issues caused by lack of funding is not one of them. Also schools are under LA control 🙂
Oops
That Flynn chap seems good on’t telly debates
Briefly wading into the somewhat nonsensical English education or Scottish education is better, I have noticed as a former engineer and now engineering manager, that you could normally (not always) tell if a Scots educated or English educated (graduate) engineer had written a report by the standard of English language.
It may no longer be true of course, as I’m basing my conclusions on folk who came through the school system a long time ago, and I will also leave you to guess which was better.
" with the really talented buggering off when they get tired leaving those who are marking time."
Ooh, thank you very much! And here was me thinking I was doing my bit to make the World a tiny bit better. In my experience it is not the talented that 'bugger off'.
Now the 3 largest parties in England have published their election manifestos, how do they measure up on NHS funding pledges? A thread >>
For the Conservatives, their costed pledges for 2028/29 came to an "extra" £1bn, which would leave their real terms commitment the lowest, at 0.9% a yr. Labour falls between the two, with their £2bn costed "extra" equating to 1.1% real terms growth a year to 2028/29 >>
With the exception of the Lib Dem offer, these figures would represent a tighter squeeze on NHS funding than ever recorded. Lower even than the Cameron/Clegg/Osborne austerity period of 2010/11 to 2014/15 when funding grew by just 1.4% real terms >>
Moreover, they follow 3 yrs where funding has been cut in real terms, meaning that were any of these funding scenarios implemented, health spending in England would grow by an average 0.4% real terms a year 2022/23 to 28/29 under the Cons, 0.5% under Lab and 0.7% under LD >>
All of those figures are lower than the rate of population growth – never mind complicated adjustments to capture the growing health need that comes with an aging population. The NHS, patients and citizens need politicians to be more realistic than this >>
From https://twitter.com/sallygainsbury/status/1801300033440006549?t=_VuLMePooZ50Y_bpE6cb5g&s=19
Not exactly a lot of daylight between the parties there.
ambulances for example are free as is medivac from the yukon. Parmedics are free.
https://novascotia.ca/dhw/ehs/ambulance-fees.asp
You cannot buy surgery it can only be provided by the state.
https://surgicalsolutionsnetwork.ca/services/orthopedic/hip/hip-replacement/
https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/private-surgery-hip-knee-replacement-1.6741461
There are no private hospitals
"There are currently 10 private clinics and one private hospital licensed in Ontario to perform surgeries.": https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-ontario-private-health-care-canada/
I don't think you are trying to mislead anyone, but a lot of what you're saying is just. not. true. I think I will leave it there.
Youre all wrong and also right. You get standard cover via medicare, and then you can juice it up by buying services privately. You will need cover cos you'll need to pay a gap fee at the point of service.
You managed to find a few edge cases - one private hospital in the whole of ontario. there are 4 in Edinburgh just to compare. Some states have token charges for ambulances - Yukon does not even for air ambulance
Its really a tiny part of the Canadian system - thorough research tho 😉
For me it's very simple,
I'm lib-dem at heart, but in my area the last GE resulsts were: https://www.calderdale.gov.uk/council/democracy/electionresults/results.jsp?election=517&area=42
So I will be voting labour, this will not a vote in favour or labour, it's more a vote against the conservatives and UKIP/reform.
I've never voted tactically in my life, but I feel I have no choice.
sorry if this been posted before
https://twitter.com/ChrisO_wiki/status/1801295940860399978
that map is mental!
please let it be true!
Reform up to second according to YouGov
Yeah and even worse than that they now seem to be taking votes from Labour - 3 opinion polls in the last 3 days have put Labour on less than 40%
Up until this week no opinion poll had put Labour on less than 40% for a couple of years.
I have to admit that I had dismissed Farage's claim when announcing his candidature that Reform UK would start taking votes from Labour as well as the Tories.
Up until now the growth in support for Reform UK (from about 5% a couple of years ago to about 12-14% more recently) has come at the expense of the Tories, it hadn't noticeably dented Labour support.
I was obviously wrong. Suddenly I am not finding this election campaign quite so entertaining and funny 🫤
With 3 weeks to go for the first time I am starting to think that Labour might possibly have a problem forming a large majority. The full effect of Starmer's support for Israel on Labour's vote won't be known until election night, losing support to Reform UK is probably something that Starmer's tacticians did not calculate when they decided that they could afford to lose the Muslim vote, and the Green vote.
Maybe we will see a Lab/Lib coalition... I'll take that over a Con/Lib coalition any day of the week.
The other more frightening prospect is a Con/reform coalition, but I'm reasonably happy that won't happen, touch wood.
I reckon the situation now that Farage has weighed in is really quite volatile and unpredictable.
I think the only one certain thing now is that the Tories will do extremely badly on July 4th. Everything else is anyone's guess.
I’ve never voted tactically in my life, but I feel I have no choice.
I’m an active Labour Party member who’s been out campaigning for them and will be doing again this weekend
If it was a lib dem who stoood more chance of unseating our Tory MP, I’d vote for them in a heartbeat*
We just need rid of these clowns
* it’s a two horse race here with Labour or our useless Tory MP who I look forward to seeing getting the slow handclap as he’s voted out
For those saying 'oh the Tories won't get that few seats' - their numbers are still sliding and we aren't even half way through the campaign yet!
Jesus, a Tory/Reform coalition.
I'm genuinely terrified at the thought, particularly as Reform would very much be the senior partner even if they have less MP's.
I was pleasantly surprised to see Reform not eating into the labour vote but I suppose it was always going to happen to some degree.
I wont lie, I'm pleased Labour is still being so cautious even though I understand why it annoys so many. It had to be this way as there are are so many variables in play here the mind boggles.
A big Labour mistake could still change everything.
Let's not forget the "Labour have it in the bag" narrative is inevitably going to erode the tactical vote too.
Could be a perfect storm for Labour, the vote being eroded from all sides. Shit.
My money is still on labour to win but I don't think it will be the landslide some predict.
Looking increasingly like a possible, even likely, outcome.
Farage, finally finishing off the hollowing out of the Tory party started by Brexit and fully impregnating it with frog spawn.
Eeeww. Not sure I wanted to conjure that image up in my head now.
Right now a Tory-Reform coalition is not even vaguely possible as even the best possible scenario for them only gives Reform about 3 seats.
I am not sure what threshold Reform needs to hit for seats to start cascading in for them, it obviously depends on their vote distribution.
As I say though the one thing we can be absolutely sure of is the Tories will do extremely badly. There is no evidence that their fortunes have turned. In fact all the evidence suggests that their support is collapsing further.
@binners said:
I’m an active Labour Party member who’s been out campaigning for them and will be doing again this weekend
Well, good for you, but the current manifestation of the labour party seems just as anti EU as it was under Corbyn, so I don't realy GAF about that.
I'll only be voting labour because they will hopefully be 'better' than the conservatives and/or Reform, as they are both the same thing in my mind.
If we can put Craig Whittaker to pasture in the process, then all the better!
we aren’t even half way through the campaign yet!
The election is in just under 3 weeks?
Could be a perfect storm for Labour, the vote being eroded from all sides. Shit.My money is still on labour to win but I don’t think it will be the landslide some predict.
I've got the same fears. Everyone thought Remain had it in the bag until the final day or two.
"It might be close but no-one would be that stupid..."
Same risk here. Everyone thinks there'll be a Labour landslide so some don't bother to vote, some vote for the joke/sympathy candidate, some spoil their papers and before you know it Farage has got his way into the House of Commons.
🤯
Farage attracted some Labour voters in the referendum, Boris attracted them to "get Brexit done", they were always going to attract votes from Labour this time round as well.
That plane crash really was a "what if" moment for the country.
There seems to be little interest in debating policy any longer - it's turned into Labour should to win at all costs - no matter what poor show they put on.
All the Centrist's screaming about being anti-EU and anti-austerity from many members has become muffled.
Well, the undoing of this is probably none of the improvement we all wanted and fracturing of the political system to allow more right-wing attitudes to prevail.
I mean the size of the spend in Labour's manifesto is paltry and still the Express is digging into it - it doesn't matter what you believe you are doing to form a credible government it will never be enough for the right-wing media.
All Starmer had to do in the face of a collapsing Tory party was put some robust progressive stuff out there that would make a difference, but the coward and serial liar has screwed up the future too.
In other news - the Guardian is getting there. (Even though it gets the detail totally wrong.) It is moving closer to reality to challenge narratives on house-hold spending analogy.
The shadow chancellor, Rachel Reeves, has talked about the Conservatives “maxing out the credit card”, and Keir Starmer and Rishi Sunak have also used the analogy.
During the Covid-19 pandemic the Bank of England created £450bn of bonds and invited investors to buy them. These bonds funded about the same amount of spending by the government
This is particularly cock-eyed as the BoE of purchased these bonds themselves!
But it's broadly the right point.
The political choice is fund insufficiently
Yep. Take the costs of a private school per child and put that same amount per child into every state school.
Pay the teachers the same, give the teachers the same conditions, provide all the same things to the children etc,.
Can anybody argue that it is not money well spent?
.
All Starmer had to do in the face of a collapsing Tory party was put some robust progressive stuff out there that would make a difference, but the coward and serial liar has screwed up the future too.
I thought (a while ago) that he might be deliberately keeping his head down, don't say anything too contentious or divisive, let the Tories destroy themselves and then come in with some genuine stuff - maybe even along the lines of closer ties with the EU, some decent bits on Net Zero, environment etc.
But all he's doing is being a sort of "we're marginally less shit than the Tories". And he's managing to get caught up in culture war nonsense as well.
It's disappointing.
It's also disappointing that Green/Lib Dem can't win much, the only option (if your main aim is to get the Tories out) is Labour.
Suggestions that Reform growth may be being influenced by clever targeted Bot activity from non British sources. That sounds quite familiar to the referendum iirc. I wonder if there's any link?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c1335nj316lo
Last night's debate.
Daisy Cooper understands there is only one pool of labour and resources. Nail on head. To the left of Labour, and total understand of real limitations, so don't split it between private and public!
Farage: "The National Cake" WTF
theotherjonv
Full Member
Suggestions that Reform growth may be being influenced by clever targeted Bot activity from non British sources. That sounds quite familiar to the referendum iirc. I wonder if there’s any link?
The same people would benefit. If I remember correctly, Johnson would've even allow an investigation into potential Russian meddling in the referendum vote. It stunk then and it still does.
More to the point, it would be a miracle if Putin wasn't meddling given the war in Ukraine. Hell, he'd still be upto it without the war, he doesn't need a reason, it's what he does. Destabilise and sow doubt/ division.
on other election matters.
My wife, me and daughter have routinely had postal votes in case we are away. My son's going to be allowed to vote for the first time and has registered and has a normal vote.
I know you can drop a postal vote off at the polling station on the day, for that last minute waverer.... but I quite fancy doing old school and going with him. Partly so if I'm exit polled, I can tell them I'm a labour supporter voting LD because I want you (tory supporter, too much to hope the candidate turns up) to get an absolute spanking locally and nationally.
Overly vindictive?
Definitely Labour for me. I have a number of reservations about them, but it's too-close-to-call here and I want Robert Jenrick out! Ironically my GB News-watching boss will be helping by voting Reform.
If the Reform % in polls is similar to that of the Tories, why are they still predicted no seats? Is it simply that their supporters are spread out across many constituencies, so not likely to get a majority in any one?
There seems to be little interest in debating policy any longer
Because this is the election thread and in an election you don't vote for individual policies, you vote for your local representative which effectively means voting for a party and their basket of policies. For most people though its an emotional and not well thought through decision. For most of the sensible on here the best we can hope for is no more right wing chaos and a stabilisation of the current decline. An improvement would be great but one step at a time. You'll have plenty of opportunity to rant about Labour post election but given your adherence to mad monetary theory I doubt you'll be happy regardless of who is in power.
If the Reform % in polls is similar to that of the Tories, why are they still predicted no seats? Is it simply that their supporters are spread out across many constituencies, so not likely to get a majority in any one?
IANA Polling E, so can't say this as FACT! but basically this.
It's the argument for, and some would argue in this case, against PR vs FPTP
Apart from them not liking foreigners does anyone know what else Deform stand for?
Does farage support Ukraine? Will he clean the rivers, sort the nhs ,roads etc.
Are the Deform bots done by them or the Russians?
Are the Deform bots done by them or the Russians?
My earlier comment was tongue in cheek, I'm well aware of who was (allegedly) behind the Leave bot campaign - and also note as above that it seems strange that Johnson would then block an investigation into interference. I note too the BBC article pointing strongly at the messages being generated by non-English speakers.
I'm not saying it was/is Vlad, but that's only because I don't like polonium tea.
Overly vindictive?
In this election, after the last 14 years, you can't be too vindictive.
Sunak concluded his first day without any formal bilateral meetings with any other G7 leaders. He held a 10-minute conversation with Ukraine’s president, Volodymyr Zelenskiy. On Sunak’s request, the pair took a walk through the grounds of the golf club hosting the summit and spoke at length about Ukraine. They embraced at the end and Zelensky wished Sunak “all the best”.
1) "10-minute conversation...spoke at length"
2) TFW Zelenskiy shakes your hand and sheds a tear bc he knows it's the last time he will see you before your certain defeat...
No politician wants to be seen with a loser as they’re scared the stench of defeat might rub off on them.
His new Italian host literally recoiled in horror when he went to greet her
He cut the same sad and lonely figure as Theresa May at that last EU conference
Does farage support Ukraine?
I doubt it. At the time that Corbyn was warning us the threat that Putin posed, and the Russian oligarchs were bankrolling the Tory Party, Nigel Farage was very publicly and brazenly declaring his admiration for Putin.
In fact Farage claimed that Putin was the leader that he admired most in the world.
Not been following any Farage interviews, for telly preservation reasons, but I assume he's been nailed to the wall over his professed love for Putin by every interviewer? 🙂
I assume he’s been nailed to the wall over his professed love for Putin by every interviewer? 🙂
I actually think that the single biggest chink in Nigel Farage's armour is his solid support for Donald Trump.
However popular Donald Trump might be in the United States opinion polls show that he is deeply unpopular in the UK. And Trump certainly doesn't get a sympathetic press here.
I reckon Farage's political opponents should exploit his admiration and support for the convicted criminal as it is very current and easily proven.
As far as I am aware no one is attacking Farage from that angle. In fact no one seems to be attacking Farage from any angle, apart from the occasional object thrown at him.
I'm starting to think that only poor health might stop Farage. And I'm happy to say that his health doesn't appear to be very good. He's certainly in a lot of pain, which is a shame.
Reform in second place in the polls. So we still want PR?
Reform in second place in the polls. So we still want PR?
Yep,
Because without PR, Reform gets to form the government in 5 years time with a 100+ majority based on 30% of the vote.
Yes. Absolutely essernt6ial to modernise the UK. Works well where it is used, provides much better representative government and we would not have had the hard right tory governments. Name one UK election where right wing parties got more than 50% of the vote? I don't thin k Thatcher ever did. Her majorities were built on a divided anti tory vote. Possible one parliament pre brexit?
Far right parties in countries with PR:
The site that was linked to earlier showed voting intention by previous vote. The only big change was previous Tory to Reform this time. The Labour to Reform shift was tiny.
Depending on how you count it the electorate voted overall against the Brexit parties in 2019. But it depends on what you believe the Labour “close ties” stance really was.
The site that was linked to earlier showed voting intention by previous vote. The only big change was previous Tory to Reform this time. The Labour to Reform shift was tiny.
Curtice reckoned the Labour sag was to LibDem driven by folk assuming the landslide was a forgone conclusion.
Unwinding tactical voting effectively.
I'd rather have a smaller Labour majority and LD as the official opposition than a gigantic one and still have Tories getting air time.
Agreed
Still can’t get my head around pro-EU left of centre types wanting to give Farage the single thing he prays for when he wakes up in the morning. Being the official opposition would be a massive stepping stone to inevitably being in govt one day. You’re all mental. 🙂
I thought it was generally accepted that Reform pulled votes from both Labour and Tories
If you look at the opinion polls over the last couple of years support for Reform UK has grown from about 5% to until Farage announced his candidacy about 12-14%
During that time support for Labour has remained more or less stable but support for the Tories has very significantly fallen.
Clearly things appear to have changed since Farage stepped into the election battle and now support for Labour has dipped.
My only explanation is that Reform UK is a fairly natural home for disaffected Tories, and there has definitely been some very unhappy Tory voters in the last couple of years!
However some Labour voters now seem to have been attracted to Reform UK by the "Nigel Farage" factor. I suspect that the fact that Farage has, unlike Starmer, an actual personality is an important factor in this.
I commented on this thread, at the time that Farage made the announcement that he was standing, that immediately after seeing Farage on the telly I saw Starmer giving a speech and my reaction was "jeezus the geezer is dull"
Binners claimed his wife said the same concerning Rishi Sunak straight after she had seen Farage.
Labour have had a very clear strategy of not using policies to attract voters and instead have focused on not being "an unpopular Tory government". This strategy has obviously worked very well indeed.
However now that Farage is in the foray if policies aren't the issue why then not go for someone who claims not to be a Tory AND has some charisma?
If Labour had won voters over with solid policies, which is what they did in 2017 and they got 40% of the vote (it certainly wasn't the charisma of the leader!) they wouldn't now be so vulnerable to the Farage factor.
Being the official opposition would be a massive stepping stone to inevitably being in govt one day.
FPTP forces coalitions IN parties. Farage has a good chance of leading a right wing party in parliament, as the official opposition, if he gets to be in the Conservative parliamentary party. He was welcomed as a hero at the last Conservative party conference outside the main hall. He has a lot of support with current Conservative MPs, and party members, and understands how to win them over if the time comes. Sorry to go all Godwin... but the only reason he's not in the party now is he only wants to work with them as leader, not in a supporting role.
As the polls get worse and worse for the Tories, I’m just starting to wonder what the civil war will look like when the electoral thumping gets delivered. It’s going to be viscous but highly amusing watching them all turn on each other.
If the election itself doesn’t deliver an ‘extinction level event’ the aftermath very well might, with Farage happily stirring the pot
I can’t see the man-frog and his mates getting more than a couple of seats but even that could be enough to send what’s left of the Tory party into a complete meltdown
Still can’t get my head around pro-EU left of centre types wanting to give Farage the single thing he prays for when he wakes up in the morning.
I'm not pro-EU, as some people on here love to remind me, and in my ideal world there will be no political parties, but until we reach utopia I am happy to settle for PR.
If the election goes as expected for them then it could well be the Tories who are the fringe party now advocating proportional representation
Heres hoping 😂
I am happy to settle for PR.
I’d rather we had a more direct form of democracy rather than giving representative politicians more power to decide what’s best and then not being accountable for it. In the meantime though there is a huge far right threat here and in other countries and we need to use every tool in the box to resist it, and FPTP is a great way of denying fascists power.
The Conservative Party may be in a hole, but the ideology will survive them and be represented by an even worse entity. Haw Haw terrifies me, remember his so called party is his private property and can be used to take over the established party - which is transparently the objective. The comment of impregnating the husk with frogspawn was spot on, and FPtP can give these monsters an unchallenged majority in future.
Moscow calling, Moscow calling
If the election itself doesn’t deliver an ‘extinction level event’ the aftermath very well might, with Farage happily stirring the pot
The thing about liberal parliamentary democracy is that due to constant and unwavering voter dissatisfaction it is, like water, self-leveling.
If the Tory Party does collapse the vacuum it leaves will simply be filled by another right-wing party, that is totally inevitable.
The aim should not be to destroy the right, that simply can't happen, but to move the centre leftwards.
If the election goes as expected for them then it could well be the Tories who are the fringe party now advocating proportional representationHeres hoping 😂
Which is especially ironic given they specifically changed the London Mayoral election to FPTP in an attempt to benefit their own candidate!
It seems obvious to me that Reform would attract Labour votes. There's a couple of 'policy suggestions' that I could get behind in their manifesto. Whether it amounts to a significant vote in each constituency to make a difference is unlikely apart from Clacton (which is still the only contest they seem likely to win). I think Farage is a pull, across the political divide but every other candidate is an unknown, and every time they do hit the headlines, it mostly becasue they're revealed to be closet Nazis.
Sure in some contests they may pull some votes from Labours overall victory, but I don't think they realistically even threaten the Tories for their place as the right wing party in Parliament, or as even a junior partner in any new party.
Farage has still to face Nick Robinson 1 on 1 - he dodged the last one, cos of the Hitler thing.
My bet is he'll dodge him as much as possible to avoid having a spotlight shone on him. He's a cowardly, loud mouthed bully & the sooner he is exposed the better.
I’d rather we had a more direct form of democracy rather giving representative politicians more power to decide what’s best and then not being accountable for it.
Because direct democracy works so well in the United States?
Personally I want less direct democracy and more delegated democracy, which is why I don't support directly elected mayors, and judging by the outrage the last referendum held caused I'm not alone.
Has there been much discussion around voter ID and how it will play in the overall turnout numbers?
Still can’t get my head around pro-EU left of centre types wanting to give Farage the single thing he prays for when he wakes up in the morning. Being the official opposition would be a massive stepping stone to inevitably being in govt one day. You’re all mental. 🙂
Nigel Farage does not pray to become the junior partner in a coalition government. In fact, that would be his nightmare. As has been shown in Nordic countries, once the far right get into government they hit a brick wall in terms of popularity. Suddenly the 'simple solutions' and empty promises are exposed.
What Nigel Farage prays for is that no one implements any kind of PR. He knows that with a fractured Tory party and people severely disillusioned with 5 years of Labour austerity (that is definitely not austerity according to Labour) he only has to persuade around 1 in 3 voters to vote for him and he gets to run the whole circus. And remember, 1 in 3 voters is not the same as 1 in 3 people.
You might think having Farage as leader of the opposition* or as a junior coalition partner would be bad. I agree, it would be.
However, I absolutely guarantee that having PM Farage in charge for 5 years would be far far worse and may not even be recoverable from given that the last 5 years have shown the 'good chap principle' of government doesn't really work if you have complete turds in charge.
*even though leader of the opposition doesn't really exist in PR in the same way it does in FPTP