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PrinceJohn
Has anyone seen any vote Conservative boards in anyone’s gardens? I’ve seen a few Labour & a few Lib Dem, but not a single Conservative one.
Lots in farmers field's near me (Cambs/Lincs border) for the absolute dickhead John Hayes. We had a pamphlet for him through the door.
I have no idea what sort of seat (safe or otherwise) ours will be this time around. Thanks to boundary changes its all new! We used to be part of Tynemouth ward so Labour since 1997, and Conservative before that (The Evil Rotter (Neville Trotter.) No idea what the outcome will be this time around, but we've had nothing from any of the candidates thus far (flyers or doorstep), and only one house with a Lab poster in their window.
Seen two Conservative posters in gardens today in North Devon, Barnstaple area. Not noticed any others for any party though so it does seem very quiet on the Giant Placards front.
Yeah this campaign is dragging on.
I wish they'd stop trying to prove how "Man of the People" and down to earth working class they all are. The whole "my Dad was a toolmaker" and "we didn't have Sky TV" nonsense is just cringingly painful.
What I actually want is for Starmer to say "yes, I'm pretty comfortable, the point is that everyone should be pretty comfortable..." and then lay out plans to do that and point out that 14 years of austerity has done exactly the opposite.
Instead he's more or less copying this whole "grow the economy" nonsense. You're not going to grow the economy unless you actually invest in people and infrastructure. Oh yeah and reverse Brexit. That massive elephant in the room that they're all walking carefully around.
Quote from Rone: "(I tell you why the campaign seems it’s dragged on because you all inherently know the big win is not going to be that much of a push back.)"
I fear the above is sadly correct. There will be a measure of relief and some change - but not enough, and not enough in the right directions. The ultra-caution approach of Labour is becoming stultifying.
I'm looking forward to change because it's very overdue, and i'll enjoy the spectacle of the tory party falling apart and eating itself - and then the man-frog will gulp them up like the man-phibian demagogue he is. Hopefully it'll fatally poison him politically.
The whole “my Dad was a toolmaker” and “we didn’t have Sky TV” nonsense is just cringingly painful.
These are less familiar to folks than you'd believe though, For huge swathes of the population, politics isn't on their radar at all, and the fact the Starmer's dad was a toolmaker or Rishi's folks couldn't afford Sky is news.
see this I don’t get. The mentality that you are so embarrassed by the party you support that you don’t want to let anyone know you support them. Yet you vote for them anyways.
Theres a large house I walk past pretty often near here.
During the referendum they had Vote Leave banners up.
During the last 2 elections they had large Tory banners up.
Now? Nothing. I suspect they are still Tory or perhaps Reform but for "reasons" are unwilling to broadcast their affiliation.
Same people there as I recognise the company van.
"Sometimes people can be so wedded to an ideology that it makes them do stupid things. Hence they appear stupid even though they are not."
^^ I made that quote up but it's how I explain to myself how seemingly intelligent people might be hugely pro Brexit etc.
They aren't stupid but they are exhibiting stupid behaviour... hence they get labelled as well, stupid but that doesn't necessarily mean it's true.
(If you don't understand the above, you are stupid. 😁😉)
An awful lot of people don't actually think about who they vote for, they just vote for who they've always voted for.
@zippykona I think the general consensus is that there's a huge raft of voters who will never see a TikTok but will see a leaflet through the door.
What’s the alternative to growth?
Growth by itself is meaningless.
Growth is a byproduct of a well educated healthy population who have the opportunity to pursue their goals and aren't unduly limited by their circumstances.
'Business friendly' has time and again been shown to be a code for screwing the population in general to increase value for shareholders. And even then, they mean short term value for shareholders and not sustainable growth that will benefit people today and future generations.
But yeah, the only thing that matters is getting the Tories out, etc...
Gina Miller is no doubt undoing all our hard work.
Yep, she's a real Enemy of the People.
Growth by itself is meaningless.
Growth is a byproduct of a well educated healthy population who have the opportunity to pursue their goals and aren’t unduly limited by their circumstances.
‘Business friendly’ has time and again been shown to be a code for screwing the population in general to increase value for shareholders. And even then, they mean short term value for shareholders and not sustainable growth that will benefit people today and future generations.
But yeah, the only thing that matters is getting the Tories out, etc…
Perhaps I'm missing something in your answer, but you don't seem to be suggesting an alternative solution?
But yeah, the only thing that matters is getting the Tories out, etc…
It's the first thing that matters, definitely not the only thing.
Without that first step being taken, everything else is moot.
Perhaps I’m missing something in your answer, but you don’t seem to be suggesting an alternative solution?
Second line:
Growth is a byproduct of a well educated healthy population who have the opportunity to pursue their goals and aren’t unduly limited by their circumstances.
None of the above is going to be achieved by focusing on making sure shareholders are getting the best returns possible in the next quarter.
The focus should always be on the population because it's the right thing to do and, and I know this is going to blow some minds, but if every person country is well educated (or as well educated as they can be) and as healthy as they can be it creates exceptional value for businesses because they have a plethora of candidates who can be trained to do pretty much any job.
And they aren't limited to accepting jobs that are within commuting distance of their parents' spare rooms.
Without that first step being taken, everything else is moot.
If the second step is 'Just do the same as the Tories' then everything else is moot anyway.
In 5 years Labour will be replaced by an even more unhinged Tory party (or Reform party).
"Gina Miller is no doubt undoing all our hard work.
Yep, she’s a real Enemy of the People"
The libs have got a real chance of getting the Tories out.
Labour aren't even campaigning in our area.
Miller said she would run if Grayling didn't stand down. He has ,so why ruin a perfectly good chance to make a difference?
Miller won't get in but she is helping a Trump supporting scumbag to get elected.
Growth is a byproduct of a well educated healthy population who have the opportunity to pursue their goals and aren’t unduly limited by their circumstances.
Laudable goals that I entirely agree with. But you've not suggested how we're going to achieve it.
Serious question, where do you think that the money is going to come from, if not from growth, seeing as borrowing isn't really viable at the moment?
We do not need growth - we have plenty of "stuff". What we need is the wealth of the nation shared fairly. I believe in the "no growth society".
the alternative is mega death in climate catastrophe with growth or reduce the impact of climate change
Serious question, where do you think that the money is going to come from, if not from growth, seeing as borrowing isn’t really viable at the moment?
The Magic Money Tree of course. You haven’t been paying attention.
If the second step is ‘Just do the same as the Tories’ then everything else is moot anyway.
In 5 years Labour will be replaced by an even more unhinged Tory party (or Reform party).
We can keep the Tories in. That's a choice we can make but it seems insane and we know where that direction choice leads as we've been living it. Can you imagine 5 more years of this? It has to end.
Labour are yet to be voted in. There will be policies they enact that wont work, there will be policies they enact that I really wont like. I'm not looking for perfect at this stage, I'm looking for better.
I truly believe, hand on heart, that Labour will try to improve the UK for the majority of it's people. I can't know if they will succeed in the endeavour but I'm onboard for the ride. If nothing else I won't feel the government hate me and most of the rest of the country.
Not trying to sway you Bruce as I know I can't but the above is how I feel at the moment and I know many other people do too.
They do, though, if you read them, and in particular they speak about how rich kids do significantly better than poor kids, which is a disgrace all across the UK.
I haven't seen any indepth analysis of how, say Scottish poor students fair v's English poor students or the most socially deprived in Spain, France etc. I'd genuinely be interested in that - everything I see seems to be people trying to score political points that "Scotland is failing" or "England is improving" - they are based on an overall average. Anyone that claims "Scottish Education is Failing" - I ask the question, have you met and properly conversed with a bunch of school leavers in Scotland? I think the whole of society is failing a small proportion - but an awful lot are actually well informed, articulate, smart people - with good prospects ahead of them. Scotland does have an issue with talking itself down.
They also show that Scotland’s secondary education system has been declining steadily against European peers since 2008 –
Once again, it doesn't show anything about the system - it only tells you about the outputs - the attainment of 15 year olds. And only on the metrics they measure. As an employer of STEM people I do want them to be able to read, understand maths and science. I do see some shocking incompetence - but its just as important to me that people are able to communicate well, work in teams, show compassion for others, understand how to learn/find stuff out, have confidence and creativity and solve problems / don't fall apart at the first hurdle. Some of the most academically bright (who are likely to do well in any reading/maths/science test) are least capable in those wider skills. If we get those right (I'm not saying we do) then you can probably "catch up" on the cap between 15-18. After all Scottish universities typically have an extra year - so it might not be right to assume that a single measurement point at 15 is the best measure of schooling.
when the SNP took power from Labour in Scotland. Those two facts are not unconnected.
Probably one of the questions the 15 year olds answer is about the difference between causation and correlation! 2008 was a time of economic crisis - so given your comments about poorer kids going worse, did we decouple that? its also when austerity came in across the UK so Scot Gov had less budget to spend. Nobody can be sure that had Labour remained in Scotland that exactly the same would not have happened. Labour haven't really spelled out what they would do differently - one of the risks is change for change's sake - it takes a generation to make those changes...
Serious question, where do you think that the money is going to come from, if not from growth, seeing as borrowing isn’t really viable at the moment?
Borrowing to give your rich friends a tax cut or to bribe the DUP maybe isn't possible (well, it's possible but probably not advisable). However, borrowing to invest in the long term outlook for your population absolutely is.
But of course, if you subscribe to the household budget analogy then you have to raise the money first. And you can't do that because your population is not in a position to be productive enough to create actual growth. All that can be done is to maximise shareholder returns for a few more years so at least they can point to the GDP numbers and say, 'See, it's working'. Therefore, the UK is stuck in a death spiral anyway so what's the point?
Just as well governments don't actually work like the household budget analogy and can borrow money for investment anytime they want*.
*Note, I'm not a huge MMT proponent but it is far closer to reality than the household budget analogy. There are obviously limitations but if a government is going to spend sensibly then there is not a great deal limiting it in its borrowing.
However, borrowing to invest in the long term outlook for your population absolutely is.
It was when rates were low. I'm not certain that you can say that it's viable currently. A huge amount of money is spent every month servicing interest on government debt because rates have gone up. That's part of the bind that we're in. If we borrow more, even more goes on interest.
Serious question, where do you think that the money is going to come from, if not from growth, seeing as borrowing isn’t really viable at the moment?
Apart from borrowing is viable - especially so if the end result is a more productive country.
Who say borrowing is not viable, oh yes Starmers Labour party. I take it you agree with them.
Lab manifesto has one sentence about active travel, and loads about roads. Party of hard-working motorists it is!
Miller won’t get in but she is helping a Trump supporting scumbag to get elected.
She's not.
She is stating her policies and asking people to vote for her. If this is taking votes from the LibDems then maybe they should have a look at what she is saying that people seem to like so much and start saying the same things.
Is that photo legit?!
It was when rates were low. I’m not certain that you can say that it’s viable currently. A huge amount of money is spent every month servicing interest on government debt because rates have gone up. That’s part of the bind that we’re in. If we borrow more, even more goes on interest.
Again, the household budget analogy does not apply to a country with it's own currency. It doesn't even really apply to countries that don't have their own currencies.
Time and again it has been shown that not borrowing and investing is far more damaging that trying to austerity your way to growth.
Anyway, someone who can be bothered to type it all out will be along in a minute to explain in endless detail why the household budget analogy is wrong 🙂
Is that photo legit?!
Did the Sunak's actually live above the Pharmacy? I highly doubt it and would think that was rented out to one of those types that has Sky TV.
neilnevill
Free Member
Is that photo legit?!
Questionable I think. Funny though!
The road furniture looks too modern to me?
Again, the household budget analogy does not apply to a country with it’s own currency.
Agreed.
However, one of the key tenets of MMT, as I understand it, is that it relies on taxation to control inflation. So as inflation is already high, it's likely that taxes will need to go up.
I don't have a problem with this. But I also think that nobody is helped by pretending that this isn't the reality that we're in.
But I also think that nobody is helped by pretending that this isn’t the reality that we’re in.
And I don't think that anybody is helped by pretending it's possible to return a country to growth by austerity and lack of investment.
Regardless of whether the Sunak Pharmacy photo is legit NoContextBrits is one of the few enjoyable things on Tweetarse
Probably one of the questions the 15 year olds answer is about the difference between causation and correlation! 2008 was a time of economic crisis
...which occurred just about everywhere else in the OECD. Austerity too occurred commonly across Europe, and everywhere in the UK. And yet it is specifically Scotland's scores that dropped.
What's the purpose in denying objective data gathered across multiple countries over many years that clearly show a decline in Scottish secondary education? All this nonsense about suggesting Welsh or Scottish people are inherently "thick" or denying that data can ever show the quality of education - why bother?
one of the risks is change for change’s sake – it takes a generation to make those changes…
The SNP has had a generation to implement its changes - 16 years specifically - and it's been a colossal disaster. They've managed to deliver even worse results than the Tories in England. That's shocking. They and their fans should own it rather than cast around for far-fetched theoretical data bickering or try to separate their performance in government in Scotland from their platform in a General Election. It's embarrassing.
So Labour are saying they will go ahead with VAT on Private School fees.
A cynical 'class' vote winner or something of real benefit? An interesting paper here https://lordslibrary.parliament.uk/independent-schools-proposed-vat-changes/#:~:text=On%2023%20May%202024%20the,would%20have%20on%20those%20schools. which I think concludes is that no one truly knows what net value it will bring to the economy, indeed one independent report says it will cost more to the economy, which therefore infers its just an attack on the rich to win votes.
Our son goes to a private school, we will seriously have to consider pulling him out. Numbers at his school have already dropped post COVID. The school is already trying to increase its overseas pupils to offset the increase in costs.
The local state school is already over subscribed, the private school facilities are truly part of the local social economy with its facilities being used by lots of local groups. No the school wont close tomorrow, but there are very serious concerns about its future if this change does come in.
An awful lot of people don’t actually think about who they vote for, they just vote for who they’ve always voted for.
<QI klaxon>
Fewer than 10% of people strongly identify with a political party in the UK. In 2015, 40%+ of people voted for a party that was different to the one they voted for in the previous election. The UK electorate is pretty volatile.
https://www.britishelectionstudy.com/bes-findings/volatility-realignment-electoral-shocks/
https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/49334/html/
@politecameraaction - thanks, good to be corrected, I shall try and expunge that idea from my mind.
In 2015, 40%+ of people voted for a party that was different to the one they voted for in the previous election
That may have been due to Brexit - however, I do wonder how the volatility compares to other countries.
@50.9339061,-1.4184073,3a,73.9y,4.56h,88.47t/data=!3m8!1e1!3m6!1sUxJPhjSfDV_0dmdJmVSxIg!2e0!5s20081001T000000!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DUxJPhjSfDV_0dmdJmVSxIg%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.share%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26yaw%3D4.5550105587237395%26pitch%3D1.5338655895045008%26thumbfov%3D90!7i13312!8i6656?coh=205410&entry=ttu">Wayback machine on the Sunak pharmacy says that the dish was there in 2008 - but that's the earliest.
A flat above the shop isn't where you want to live as the GP parent of a Winchester boy though is it?
Funny though.
Is it that the SNP caused the scores to fall or is it that the scores were falling and the SNP happened to be in charge?
As far as I can see the scores were falling while Labour were in charge as well.
funcydunc - why should my taxes be used to subsidise your sons private school? I have already paid taxes to provide a place for him at a school
I've seen one Conservative poster in a window in my travels around Cheltenham, every other banner is LD with the occasional Green, so I suspect it's not going to be a very close race this time. The Tory supporters are being particularly shy around here.
see this I don’t get. The mentality that you are so embarrassed by the party you support that you don’t want to let anyone know you support them. Yet you vote for them anyways.
I can understand that. There's enough nutters around that no matter whether its a Green poster or a Tory one that theres a chance someone is going to come and shout their mouth off at you (or a brick through your window). I've never understood why people put those posters up anyway - will I vote Tory because I live in a street with many tories? Its also worth remembering that many people don't live alone - so some may have a wife/husband/partner saying - not this year! Up here its just as likely to be an SNP voter as a Tory who will read the room before sharing their intentions!
** Newsflash ** - I've just had a leaflet through the door from a candidate who did just motivate me to go and find out more...
I had to google what these bullet point policies meant:
- abstention - I was wondering if they were Tea Total advocates, or suggesting no sex before marraige...
- salvo
I'm pretty sure there's an apostrophe crime in: women's rights'
and it happened from working with a member of the Liberation Party that I knew what "Liberation Movement" was about.
So I present to you the latest alternative to political parties, in the form of this policital party: www.isp.scot seems to be what happens when you cross the Alba Party with Reform!
funcydunc – why should my taxes be used to subsidise your sons private school? I have already paid taxes to provide a place for him at a school
Go on TJ, please explain? Genuinely why are you subsidising my sons place at private school? I see that I am also paying for a state school place that I am not using.
why should my taxes be used to subsidise your sons private school? I have already paid taxes to provide a place for him at a school
No you don't, you pay taxes, one of things those taxes don't pay for is FunkyDunc's school fees, he pays for those.and as he pointed out he's already paid taxes as well but doesn't get the paid for school place that people using the state schools do. Same with people who pay for treatment privately, doesn't deprive the NHS of funds but does reduce costs and the individual pays double.
The point is that because there is no VAT on private schools that lost money has to come from somewhere thus the rest of us pay more taxes than we would otherwise. Thus some of my taxes are used to cover the shortfall, thus my taxes are indirectly subsidizing your sons fee paying school.
Same with people who pay for treatment privately, doesn’t deprive the NHS of funds but does reduce costs and the individual pays double.
Private medical companies do not get VAT exemptions ( bar BUPA which is a mutual?) so not tax loss. Major difference.
Fair play to the Lib Dems, they're the only party to bother leafleting here, and no one has knocked on the door. I can't help but think this is deliberately misleading though.
I have mentioned before, I'm in a "safe" Tory seat, so want to vote tactically. This bar chart, suggests it's clear that based on their record, the LDs are the obvious choice. Until you look closely and see it refers to the 2005 election, nearly two decades ago and the electoral boundaries have changed since then!!! Labour were second place ahead of the LDs last time in 2019.
Yeah I know, politicians sometimes economical with the truth shocker!
Still don't know how to use my vote to best effect.
.
TJ - I think you need to analyse it a little further.
There is no costs to the state of a private school (that I am aware of) so the Treasury is not incurring a cost. If VAT is included on fees that will just be a bonus income to the Treasury - unless tell me I have that very wrong?? The Treasury has never had this income.
Private schools are currently not allowed to reclaim VAT on things they purchase so that is a gain to the Treasury. If VAT is put on school fees then the change in status means that Private Schools will start reclaiming VAT on purchases.
Its not a simple straightforward net calculation of the impact. But it certainly isnt a case of recouping lost income !
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/tax/middle-class-priced-out-private-education-privilege-elite/
Private schools are businesses, currently taxed as charities. Just tax them fairly (albeit fairness is contra to their raison d'etre).
If VAT is included on fees that will just be a bonus income to the Treasury – unless tell me I have that very wrong?? The Treasury has never had this income
So why should private schools be exempt? They're providing a charged for service, other companies that do that pay VAT. If parents can't afford that extra...well, suck it up, buttercup.
Private education makes normal schools worse because the people with the money and power have no stake in them since they pay to have their children educated separately. If everyone from the top down had to use state schools, they’d soon get more funding and facilities.
Same with private healthcare. Those doctors and surgeons operating in private hospitals are taking resources away from public healthcare. Directly because most of those doctors will also have NHS contracts and indirectly because, as above, if the rich can buy their way out of the services they make the rest of us use, they’ll be underfunded.
Lots in farmers field’s near me (Cambs/Lincs border) for the absolute dickhead John Hayes. We had a pamphlet for him through the door.
Farmers seem to be the ones who regularly get screwed over by tory governments and yet keep on pushing them. Its like some form of BDSM for them.
There is no costs to the state of a private school (that I am aware of)
yes there is - foregone tax. Forgoing that tax is a cost to us all either in reduced services or increased taxation. Making private schools pay tax properly means an increase in public spending or a reduction in taxation.
Anyway you look at it it costs the general taxpayer of which I am one to subsidise your child at private school
According to a labour speaking head on R4 World at One, it's Data servers that will save our economy, thank god.......
Plus training doctors costs a great deal more than the fees paid so there's another subsidy to the private medicine (which Streeting is so keen to promote.)
Charities, and therefore private schools, only pay 20 per cent of their business rates, which is thought to deprive cash-strapped local authorities of £144 million per year. Scotland removed this tax break from independent schools at the start of 2022, so it’s certainly possible to do. It’s worth noting that certain specialist schools were exempt from this change.
Private schools can also benefit from being able to claim gift aid on any donations, as can the donor! Let’s say you wanted to donate £100,000 to your old school, and were a top rate tax payer. [Sunak]The school would be able to claim an additional £25,000 in gift aid from the tax-payer, and you would also be able to reclaim £31,250. Donate £100,000 to your local primary school and it actually costs you £100,000, so probably not worth it – just donate a £10 bottle of wine instead! [Also Sunak…] Parent-Teacher Associations can register as charities and claim gift aid, but they are only allowed to raise money for specific things, and not for the running costs of the school.
While charities aren’t allowed to make a profit, for many private schools, in practice this means they can make a nice surplus which then goes towards a new swimming pool, theatre, upgraded science equipment and so on. They don’t pay tax on any of the surplus, even if it’s sitting in a bank account.
Many private schools also have investment portfolios, and again, they don’t pay any tax on the income from these portfolios. In fact, there’s a nice tax loophole for the super-rich whereby they pay all their fees upfront, the school invests the lump sum, gets the returns tax-free, the parent receives a discount and once their child leaves, the school and parent split what’s left.
And during the Covid-19 Pandemic, private schools were eligible to apply for loans, with the government covering the first year’s interest payments, which state schools could not apply for. Just another example of private schools benefiting financially from their charitable status, while state schools missed out.
There appear to be many ways private schools avoid tax (vat, cut, business rates and)
@FunkyDunc - You just need to cancel your Sky and Netflix. Stopping eating so many avocados and get a better paid job.
The Tories were quite clear on how you deal with not being to make ends meet.
Plus training doctors costs a great deal more than the fees paid so there’s another subsidy to the Australian health service
FTFY. 1:7 UK medical graduates are practicing abroad, while we import doctors from countries that can ill-afford to lose them.
Directly because most of those doctors will also have NHS contracts
There's a lot of 'yes, but' here. They're not (or at least shouldn't be) doing PP in NHS contracted time, and if it's outside their contract, it's not taking NHS resources away. The ethics of essentially working for a competitor in your own time are interesting mind you.
FunkyDunc - I think your view point (and likely the view of most private school parents) is not unreasonable. I think there is clearly an alternative argument that a VAT exemption is an unusual anomaly, you could waste a lot of time arguing about whether it is a subsidy or not - its like arguing whether car drivers subsidise cyclists - its pointless.
I'd say it can only really be a "class war" if the parents believe they are a (superior) class. That's not good optics.
If you want to raise taxes, its politically more palatable to do so on people who have sufficient wealth to make discretionary spending - private schools fit that bill. Everyone who has to pay more tax has a reason why its not a good idea and they should be a special case. There are other things they could add a "luxury" tax to or remove an exemption from - but given there is a state alternative that is going to be one that gets little sympathy from those who don't have the luxury of choice.
If it ends up with low or even negative net gains - does that make it a "class war" not necessarily - its a "penalty" on those trying to gain an advantage - it may not be bad if the outcome is closing the social mobility gap. But I'm pretty sure that private schools will suddenly find ways to make the fees up to 20% cheaper for those who really couldn't afford them. I dare say that if a local authority was really worried about an influx of local students there might be ways they could help too!
Here's a question I don't know the answer to:- if VAT is introduced, would a foreign student pay it or is it treated like luxury goods that are being exported with duty free?
I’d say it can only really be a “class war” if the parents believe they are a (superior) class.
I didnt mean it in the context of a class war, but more that Labour are using it as a tactic to win votes as it is seen a way of making the rich pay.
I get all of the above social idealistic views. But I am not aware of any country that has a fair social system, probably even Russia is included in that !
I will state again - it there is no conclusive costing to show whether this change would provide income to the treasury or actually be a cost
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/tax/middle-class-priced-out-private-education-privilege-elite/
Your voice would be a great asset in seeing that this gets fixed.
Why would it. The cost of building new schools and increasing staffing levels to get to 1-10 ratios will be far more than this sound bite would raise
The public money for buildings and staff could definitely be found if you and thousands like you get politically involved to avoid their kids having a poor education.
I didnt mean it in the context of a class war, but more that Labour are using it as a tactic to win votes as it is seen a way of making the rich pay.
It is a way of making the rich pay. What they are lacking is anything more ambitious to bring about a bit more equality.
As for socialist views, if it was up to me the schools would be removed all together so worrying about VAT would be moot.
Funcydunc - there is no0 doubt that ending the fake charitable status of fee paying schools will raise money ( most are fake charities - some actually really are I think). However its not a huge amount in the scheme of things and the policy is also as you allude a bit of virtue signalling for sure.
there is no conclusive costing to show whether this change would provide income to the treasury or actually be a cost
So private a school's overall income won't be affected 🙂
I didnt mean it in the context of a class war, but more that Labour are using it as a tactic to win votes as it is seen a way of making the rich pay. I get all of the above social idealistic views.
Yeah that's kind of what people expect for "labour values". You can say its pandering to the masses but I don't think anyone is going "Tax the rich, my Labour have changed". I do feel some sympathy for parents who are already part way through schooling and are faced with a choice.
I will state again – it there is no conclusive costing to show whether this change would provide income to the treasury or actually be a cost
If governments only changes policies when the true cost/income was certain nothing would change.
Why would it. The cost of building new schools and increasing staffing levels to get to 1-10 ratios will be far more than this sound bite would raise
I think the suggestion was that if we were "all in the same boat" that maybe some of the most articulate and influential voices might be the parents who are currently not directly bothered about the local school's issues because their kid doesnt go there and so generate more influence to actually elevate state schools.
I do feel some sympathy for parents who are already part way through schooling and are faced with a choice.
Could it be introduced on new starters only?
The impact of the VAT in this case is really to change the economic activity from the private sector to the state. So the outcome would be you increase the amount of teachers in state teaching because over time there will be less demand (and therefore - free up the labour pool) in the independent school sector because of the increased cost.
Taxes do three things.
- Change Behaviour / redistribute resources / labour
- Control Inflation by deleting money
- Create a demand for the government's currency
I've got nephews in private school, one in London, one in Yorkshire. Funnily enough the Yorkshire school costs a fair bit more than the London one. My sister's aren't happy about the increase but will pay it. If the comprehensive schools where they both live weren't shit the boys would be in state education, as a family we've all gone through comps and done well so it's not an ideological thing for our family.
Some of the parents at the London school know nothing else but private schools and have a perception that state schools are a drug filled warzone and that my sister almost crawled out the mud to succeed [she's done very well in her field].
The school we went to had a good strike rate of putting kids into good universities, in my school year alone there were nine who went to Oxbridge unis, plus others going to York, Durham etc.
My perception is that there will be some gripping about the cost increase, and then people will stump up anyway
Farmers seem to be the ones who regularly get screwed over by tory governments and yet keep on pushing them. Its like some form of BDSM for them.
The Tories only have a narrow lead in farmers voting intentions. There's always been this fallacy that the Tories look after farmers, yet they backstab them regularly. Brexit was the prime example. I've said before that farmers were one of the few groups with a valid reason to leave the EU, yet their lot has been worsened by the incompetent deals struck as a result of Brexit
Not so much a comment more of an observation on this:
Starmer made some big pledges on reforming the House of Lords by scrapping hereditary peers and bringing in an age limit.
I found that fairly disappointing but not surprising. I would have thought that proper reform of the House of "Lords" into a more democratic second chamber would be quite a low cost venture, if financial considerations is what is limiting how much a Labour government will be able to do, as claimed.
I am not even convinced that appointed Lords are necessarily any more desirable than hereditary ones. Some of the existing life ones have dubious reasons for being in the House of Lords.
In some cases they haven't done anything more than what amounts to paying a fee to get a seat in the House of Lords.
If this is what the incoming Labour government considers to be a big pledge reform then it's quite depressing imo.
Could it be introduced on new starters only?
I would think thats the sort of sensible solution. Although knowing how gov works: Elected July 24, Budget April 25 - announced from April 2026 - so really only school term Sep 26 on... and thats assuming they are "quick".
As for socialist views, if it was up to me the schools would be removed all together so worrying about VAT would be moot.
And I think thats a fair point, it is in reality the only way to go.
The VAT on school fees will mostly effect the hard working middle earners. The 'super rich' will still continue to go to private school regardless of VAT changes, and therefore society becomes even more elitist