MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
And if the voters aren’t happy with the way they figured it out amongst themselves then the party gets severely punished at the next election.
Great so we take power even further away from the electorate. Instead of the voters voting in a party and getting the govt they voted for, they instead vote for negotiators to decide what they get instead, and if they don't like what those negotiators decide, then they don't get a chance to get rid of them and vote for some new negotiators for another few years. I'm quite happy with FPTP solely on the grounds of marginalising the likes of Farage, but whichever way I look at PR it's a shit idea*.
*and yes I understand it just fine thanks even if you think you're cleverer than me. You don't have to look far in Europe to see where PR has manifestly failed. Belgium didn't have a functioning govt for more than a year, The Netherlands not far behind. Austria and Italy have both had far right PMs as a result of PR, not to mention the chaos in Italy which resulted in the likes of Berlosconi.
Labour have announced another pledge, hold on because this one is super relevant to your life!
Ban the import of foie gras
Hmm. Who eats that stuff anyway? Must be a tiny import market, the french will carry on making it so the ducks aren't going to be any happier.
How about a change that would make a huge difference to animal welfare in the UK - scrap the exemption for stunning animals at slaughter for religious reasons. Mumbo jumbo from the dark ages shouldn't override our animal cruelty laws. The majority of sheep in Wales are killed this way. The Welsh Green Party recently dropped their commitment to opposing non stun slaughter. You can figure out why for yourself.
*and yes I understand it just fine thanks even if you think you’re cleverer than me. You don’t have to look far in Europe to see where PR has manifestly failed. Belgium didn’t have a functioning govt for more than a year, The Netherlands not far behind. Austria and Italy have both had far right PMs as a result of PR, not to mention the chaos in Italy which resulted in the likes of Berlosconi.
When PR 'fails' that's generally a feature rather than a bug.
If it becomes impossible to form a government then that indicates a split in the country that is so severe that finding a solution is simply not possible.
In countries with FPTP the solution is to let a couple of hundred thousand swing voters in a few key swing seats decide the direction of the country.
Literally exactly what happened with the 2019 election and Boris Johnson's 'deal'.
Having no government for a year while the debate continued would have been vastly preferable to what happened, no?
However, if you are going to ignore the actual issues and just call everyone else a hypocrite and bonkers
Bruce there's no need to be so easily offended. You have to admit that being staunchly opposed to Farage whilst at the same time wanting to give him the very thing he wants the most is inconsistent. (and bonkers!) 🙂
Bruce there’s no need to be so easily offended.
It's not really getting offended, just frustrated.
Explaining things to the type of person who cannot imagine what they have not seen gets annoying. But yes, I should be more patient.
So yes, try looking at the way things work in other countries rather than just seeing everything through the lens of FPTP. It'll mean we are all actually talking about the same thing.
try looking at the way things work in other countries rather than just seeing everything through the lens of FPTP
We don't need to look at other countries. We have plenty of PR and non-FPTP voting in Scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales and London, and we used to have it everywhere for the European Parliamentary elections (which was how Farage got elected in the first place).
I can imagine the one thing most of us would be able to agree on is that there is no single, perfect electoral system for a democracy. We all know the limitations of FPTP but at least we understand it and we have enough experience of it that it sort of makes some logical sense. It's easy to find its faults when we look at the actual voting numbers but that in itself is not really telling the complete picture as those numbers don't take account of where those people are. There is possibly some room for PR - but what flavour of PR do you want? Whichever one you go for you will find some proportion of the electorate that will dislike it. I also wish our ballot papers had an explicit "none of the above" or "exercising my right not to vote for any of the proposed candidates" so that we had a positive outlet for those that are exasperated with the current political system. That could help motivate those who feel that way and end up not being bothered to go and vote as they would only be spoiling their ballot paper. And save those who do go and spoil their papers by giving them a positive option with which to express their sentiment.
This is going to be a tricky election as I feel quite conflicted. I genuinely don't know who to vote for. None of the parties are particularly geared up to bring the transformational changes and improvements that we need as those are probably not catchy enough sound bites to motivate voters. For starters I think we need a complete overhaul of the taxation system, the NHS, social services and how local government is funded and supported. These alone are massive programmes that will take years to define, plan and implement. That's before we start talking about infrastructure, energy, housing, employment and immigration. And those are just the big ticket items. As a nation we could and should be doing so much better and we deserve / need so much more than the large number of muppets we are currently burdened with in parliament. It feels too tribal and it needs a more constructive and collaborative approach. Someone needs to let some grown ups in!
No Dazh =- you clearly do NOT understand PR. thats obvious from your posts
Great so we take power even further away from the electorate. Instead of the voters voting in a party and getting the govt they voted for,
But under FPTP (which forces all parties to have an opinion on everything) you end up holding your nose and voting for the party that least worst represents you.
The current system just gives you 2 options and assumes that if you care about (in a positive way) the environment, minority rights, equality, or a myriad of other issues then you must also be left of center. Which is bonkers.
It's why Labour is split on Gaza. Because it's scared of losing both sides traditionally support labour.
Once past the Green stuff the Green Party's manifesto is pretty wild.
It means there's a lot of people who might be economically conservative but socially liberal who have no one to vote for.
I'd rather vote for a left of center, socially liberal green candidate and get a seat at the negotiating table. Than vote Lib Dem as the least-worst non-Tory option in the vain hope that the election bucks a 100+ year local winning streak for the Tories. And if he* did get in, will achieve pretty much zilch because he won't have a seat at the table anyway even if "my" party wins because I've voted for someone I didn't actually support?
*not sexist, it's a he.
Explaining things to the type of person who cannot imagine what they have not seen gets annoying.
Funny you think I can't imaging what PR is like. I spend half my time on here day dreaming of a world with no borders or goverments at all, and economies which provide for everyone's basic needs so PR isn't really much of a stretch 🙂
Neither am I ignorant of the way things work in other countries. I'll admit I don't follow the politics of EU countries as close as I do here but it's really not difficult to see where PR fails just as it's easy to see where FPTP is deficient. The one thing FPTP is very good at though in comparison to PR is keeping fascists and demogogues away from power, and given what's going on in the world right now with Trump, Putin, Modi et al that's got to be priority number one for any country which prizes personal freedom, democracy and economic security.
Trump was elected under FPTP, based on a minority share of the popular vote.
Anyway... anything related to the election campaigns to share?
India also uses FPTP
Belgium didn’t have a functioning govt for more than a year
That has nothing to do with PR but with its general political structure in particular the North/South divide and the fact it has extremely strong federal structures which means it could manage quite happily without a central government for a time. I wouldnt be completely surprised if it did break into two (maybe three) countries at some point.
Austria and Italy have both had far right PMs as a result of PR, not to mention the chaos in Italy which resulted in the likes of Berlosconi.
You think they wouldnt have had the same under FPTP? Curious.
Also Austria and Italys right wing governments were no more right wing populist than our Tories
You think they wouldnt have had the same under FPTP? Curious.
FPTP would be worse because it comes mandated.
at least we understand it and we have enough experience of it that it sort of makes some logical sense
No it doesn't. Have you been reading the thread? We've got people forced to vote for people they don't like to get rid of people they like less. And the parties that have the policies people like don't get votes. How does that make sense at all? Reform are polling at 12% of the vote and 0% of the seats; the Tories could get between 50 and 150 seats based on a small variation in percentage points.
PR means more parties, better representation and more compromises leading to a more moderate outcome. Large numbers of people in the UK care about green policies but they don't vote green because they won't win in their constituency. This is of course self fulfilling, but then there are other questions - you may not be in favour of disarmament. In a PR system far more people would vote Green, especially if it were an alternative vote/second choice system, then they'd be a significant chunk of political power. By which I mean parties seeking to form coalitions would need them so they would be able to get green policies on the agenda FAR more effectively than they do now; but also parties would start to court their voters with green policies of their own.
Fascinating though this hypothetical chat about worldwide electoral systems is, back in the UK with its FPTP system and the general election in a few weeks…
Naga Muchetty has just interviewed whichever Tory nonentity is presently immigration minister about their hastily assembled visa cap they felt the need to announce, purely coincidentally, a number of hours after Nige turned up
Pretty much all their policy announcements so far have been proper back-of-a-fag-packet nonsense, which don’t stand up to even cursory analysis, but they’ve not even bothered doing that this time
Theyve basically copied and pasted their ‘new’ immigration policy straight off the Reform website
Who was it who was arguing that Farage isn’t as influential as he thinks?
His reappearance has just had the Tories re-write their entire immigration policy overnight, parroting word-for-word what the man-frog said yesterday
He’s already Tory party leader in all but name as he’s already setting their agenda. They’re absolutely terrified of him!
inevitably
Tories going in for Inheritance tax
https://twitter.com/DominicPenna/status/1797932674612695465
rolling average going the wrong way for the dreadful little man
I'm guessing that with FPTP Vs PR, I think I'm probably not far off the mark by saying neither is a silver bullet and both have pros and cons.
I think that's probably what a lot of others think too?
So to use a phrase I've used a fair bit on here lately, "it's complex." 😉
Btw, not having a dig at anytime, the discussion had made me realise I don't know anywhere near enough about our voting system or viable alternatives. It's actually been interesting.👍
Trump was elected under FPTP, based on a minority share of the popular vote.
Yup the US electoral college is a particularly stupid implemention of FPTP. We're in the UK though, and so far our system has been very good at keeping tinpot fascists* away from power. It's evident from the polls and Farage's comments yesterday that Reform think they are in a position to replace the tories as the right wing opposition to labour. Right now the only thing preventing that is that thet won't win enough (or even any) seats in parliament to get them anywhere near that.
*No this doesn't include Johnson.
PR means more parties, better representation
You clearly have more faith and confidence in politicians than I do. Think I'm probably in the majority who think politicians should have less power not more. Giving them more influence on what sort of govt we have will not result in better representation.
I do not see any real downsides to the system used in Scotland. We get a representative government, every voters vote counts at least on the list vote. MSPs are still constituency based. The effective threshold is a bit high IMO but that is arguable.
If westminster was elected on the same basis we would not have had the tory majority governments or indeed any tory governments more than likely and we would still be in the EU.
people however do not vote in the same way as they do under fptp.
Think I’m probably in the majority who think politicians should have less power not more.
What's the alternative to elected politicans having power? Corporations? Rich individuals?
FPTP may well keep fascists out in the short run but with the Tories drifting towards Reform it almost becomes a fait accompli (and sadly Labour drifting right too. Even Rory Stewart says they're becoming indistinguishable.)
What’s the alternative to elected politicans having power?
The people having it instead.
All the talk of PR vs FPTP misses the central point, which is that representative politics is the problem. We're all arguing about the mechanism by which we give a small number of people the power to decide things for us rather than questioning whether they should have that power at all or how we hold them to account if they misuse it.
which is that representative politics is the problem. We’re all arguing about the mechanism by which we give a small number of people the power to decide things for us rather than questioning whether they should have that power at all or how we hold them to account if they misuse it.
What alternative to that is there, besides the public having a referendum on every single decision a government would usually make? The answer is citizens assemblies, whereby a random pool of 200 or so people can send decisions back to the commons for a blind vote (so MPs can vote against their party without fear).
Rory Stewart (again) keeps banging on about that idea and I think it would be great.
All the talk of PR vs FPTP misses the central point,
UKIP Reform shows that FPTP can get minority views front and centre. Shown by the fact the Tories just copy and pasted their material.
Unfortunately progressive and liberals seem to have some sort of obsession with pragmatism and 'making my vote count' whilst completely missing the fact that the people who are just unreasonable and not scared to waste their votes are the ones who are getting everything they want.
The main problem with FPTP at the moment is that only one side is using it to their advantage.
So you think we shouldn’t have elections.
Of course we would, we'd be voting on what we think legislative bodies should do rather than who should be given the power to decide it for us. It's not exactly a new thing, trade unions have been operating under this model for decades.
rolling average going the wrong way for the dreadful little man
This was before frogfaces u-turn, tonights leadership debate was going to be make or break for Sunak, is he even going to bother now? Is frogface in the debate?
Is frogface in the debate?
Does he even need to be? He's on every sodding Question Time, he's on Radio4... Annoyingly, when left to his own devices, he's actually a decent public speaker. He falls apart pretty quickly though when someone with any knowledge challenges him.
Meanwhile, the Greens (who, unlike Reform, actually have some MPs) get no airtime at all.
The people having it instead.
Haaaahahaha! Have you ever met people?
how we hold them to account if they misuse it
That's exactly what we were discussing.
Re that poll trend graph up there - the last few mm makes it look like Labour are getting votes from Reform.
The people having it instead.
But only the right type of people eh?
I do not see any real downsides to the system used in Scotland.
Going back to the point about FPTP being good at keeping fascists and demagogues away from power: Russia's parliamentary electoral system is 90% the same as Scotland's ie regional reps + party list. The two systems produce wildly different outcomes. I don't think the choice of system is as important as people are making it out to be.
I don't think it's fair to describe Presidential elections (in the US or Russia) as being FPTP. There's only one position up for grabs, you couldn't really have a PR system for it.
STV is a type of PR and works well enough for such elections.
There’s only one position up for grabs, you couldn’t really have a PR system for it.
Of course its FPTP - large constituencies ie strates. Win a state by 1 vote, get all thats states votes in the electoral college. thats how trum,p won will less votes than clinton
STV is a type of PR and works well enough for such elections.
I do see what you're saying - but isn't that more a system for ensuring that the candidate that has a plurality minority vote at first round isn't elected (e.g. I have 21% and 4 other candidates have 19.75%)?
You can't proportionally allocate the votes of a Presidential election - ultimately 100% of the (single) seat up for grabs is going to be allocated to one candidate who will never have 100% of the vote (except North Korea).
FPTP suit’s governments as it gives one party total power most of the time. This makes it much easier to deliver what the party donors and owners have bought 😀
Yes but you can allocate the votes on a proportional basis or you can have 50 large constituencies that are FPTP
Win a state say California that has a number of representatives in the electoral college and you get all that states votes even tho you may have only actually got 1 more. Trump was elected with less votes than clinton.
It’s not really getting offended, just frustrated.
I had an equivalent conversation with a bloke at work this morning.
I gave up in the end.
Where was his knee-length anti-milkshake Barbour coat? Poor planning I say.
Tee-hee, well done Clackers!
He took that well... shame, it would have been so much better to do a Prescot!
Teenage Girl Throws Banana at Chief Gammon
(Daily Star headline tomorrow)
Perhaps a different system for amending constituencies than the present boundary system, would help. FPTP combined with changing boundaries promotes lengthy stays in power and continuous movement in policies away from centre.
@scotroutes You can’t really have STV unless you’ve multiple posts with the same constituency. If there’s only one post it becomes AV, which we had for metro mayoral elections until HMG decided they’d do better under straight FPTP. Might’ve cost Andy Street…
Banana milkshake apparently.
That said, I'm not keen on any politician being targeted in this way.
Farage is lucky he is a far right politician it has to be said though. They get drink thrown at them, left wing politicians get stabbed and shot in the street.
Win a state say California that has a number of representatives in the electoral college and you get all that states votes even tho you may have only actually got 1 more.
A couple of states do have a more balanced system although think even there its broken into districts which are FPTP.
She lets him have the paper cup for afters! 🤣
Dont know if this vid link works but this is ideology when it hits reality.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-69088663
Edit: Click on the farage radio vid. BBC Today.
Yeah, I'd go staged too. His minders were on the move towards the exit before he caught it in his frog-face.
JasonDS
Full Member
Yeah, I’d go staged too. His minders were on the move towards the exit before he caught it in his frog-face.
She and an associate have been arrested.
6 Tory candidates/MPs thinking of defecting to Reform...
https://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/1797992843580956672
Im also liking this 2 Tory MPs stood down and have popped up again as candidates in much safer seats
https://twitter.com/edwinhayward/status/1798014334045712611
I’m amazed it’s only 6! But that’s just the 6 known about by the press?
There are now so many disgruntled headbangers on the Tory backbenches, who’d be an absolute shoe-in for Farages latest vehicle. I’m sure they’ll have had Nige luring them over with promises of free red trousers and discounted shooting sticks
.And from their point of view, they’d be a lot happier with their party leader than they are presently
Why is the Left so violent and angry? You don't get conservatives throwing drinks over the awful Dawn Butler MP or screaming at Starmer's kids outside his house
(rhetorical question, the answer is obvious)
Conservatives prefer financial violence against the majority, inflicting lifelong hardship on working people, they are far too cowardly to actually confront the people they clearly despise. They have blood on their hands, they just do it from the comfort of their armchairs.
Why is the Left so violent and angry? You don’t get conservatives throwing drinks over the awful Dawn Butler MP or screaming at Starmer’s kids outside his house
(rhetorical question, the answer is obvious)
A Labour MP was killed by someone who was wrapped up in Right Wing based hatred.
Farage’s dry cleaning bill is nothing in comparison with that.
Why is the Left so violent and angry? You don’t get conservatives throwing drinks over the awful Dawn Butler MP or screaming at Starmer’s kids outside his house
My immediate reaction to the latest drink throwing incident was that it involved a disgruntled Rishi Sunak supporter.
Yours was different?
Personally I would like to buy Nigel Farage a beer to express my warm appreciation for his helpful participation in what increasingly looks likely will be the greatest election disaster for the Tories in 200 years.
@kimbers
Full Member
Thanks for posting that link about Jo Cox.👍
There in lies the difference between your average leftie protest and the stabby, shooty right wing type.
Let's be honest here, Farage has some blood on his hands over Jo Cox. Not everyone will agree but I've always seen it that way.
That being said, there's is no place in politics for violence of any kind, even where Farage is concerned... I can't lie though, I had a smirk on my face when I saw the vid.
I'm a bad person.
^^ That would be brutal for the SNP.
ThePinkster
Full Member
I’ve not been about for a couple of days so apologies if this has already been posted, but a friend has just sent me this photo.It’s a little bit cheeky of them to use the red banner that way
You've got to hand it to the Tories, they are low as snakes.
I'm another who strongly disagrees with the personal attacks and violence against any politician.
There's better and more productive ways to engage with the process and the politician.
And no one, no one, deserves to be fearful about doing thier job or standing up for something they believe in.
On the other hand there should be consequences for corruption, for hate mongering and abuse of power. And we have seen for some time now that the framework for disciplining MP's and political parties is not fit for purpose. When there is so much corruption and scandal at the top of the pyramid and those with the power to change it are those that abuse the system, then it is no surprise that those at the bottom of societies pyramid get a bit agitated from time to time, throwing a drink over some of these arseholes is letting them off lightly.
I am not advocating the murder of MP's obviously, but I think it is time the body politic took some bloody responsibility for their actions in creating these situations instead of playing victim when they get a bit wet or are on the receiving end of some verbal.
And no one, no one, deserves to be fearful about doing thier job or standing up for something they believe in.
To be fair throwing McDonald's milkshakes at Nigel Farage has become a British cultural thing now.
I think it is important to maintain well-loved British traditions. It's what makes the UK special and attracts visitors from across the world.
Anyway, seems like it’s not just the tories who are going to be wiped out.
FT poll tracker is currently suggesting 14 SNP 3 CON.