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I love sitting looking up at the night’s sky…. That is until I have this feeling of pointlessness and what’s the point…. Just one dot amongst millions.
I find that concept immediately relaxes me.
everything started at a point and then started expanding outwards?
Into what?
It's expanding. Not expanding into anything per se, the distance between parts of the universe increases.
This is worth a read for those discussing whether the universe is finite or not….
Also we don’t know what was there before the Big Bang and for how long. It could have been there eternally. We know the universe was very dense at the point of the Big Bang but we don’t know for how long it was sitting there getting hotter and hotter and denser and denser.
Isn’t it just a human emotion for us to want a starting point. I understand knowing the 13.8 billion years is important mathematically, but there’s also the fact that we need to think of this as the start of the origins of the universe.
There is a theory that suggests that if a civilisation of sufficient technological advancement in our galaxy could make replicating unmanned probes that can travel to exo-planet they suspect or theorise has the building block available so that the self-replicating probe can re-manufacture itself, and then repeat the process just twice over, that the entire galaxy can be colonised by those probes in something like 29 replications, and it takes 'just' millions of years. Given how long the galaxy has been around, there could well be a civilisation that is sufficiency advanced. the downside with the theory is that the galaxy should be over-run with machines.
Perhaps it is?
Where everything started at a point and then started expanding outwards?
But no one knows how big the "point" was.
No tape measures back then, see.
anything coming from Mars are a million to one
but million to one chances happen 9 times out of 10?!
Given how long the galaxy has been around
Not as long as you think, in practical terms. The chances of life evolving aren't the same throughout that period. The universe was originally made of hydrogen, which formed stars. But all the other heavier elements are made in those stars, and have to be redistributed about the galaxy in supernova explosions. This stuff can then coalesce to form second generation star systems that include a variety of elements that can evolve into life and spaceships. That process obviously takes a long time - much of which is taken by simply stuff cooling down enough to become solid and support suitable environments for evolution, and then as we know life evolving enough to make spaceships takes a long time too. There's a chance that we are actually among the earliest galactic generations to be sitting here thinking about this stuff. Maybe in another 500m years the skies will be full of aliens zipping about.
I'd like to know why this UFO stuff is so secretive. It's always the US military who's got these details and hiding them... why? Trying to learn about them for military purposes? Don't want others to get this juicy technology? But why hide their existence altogether?
Doesn't make much sense to me. Also, it's always the USA. Do aliens not visit any other country?
Do they always crash near military bases? Or do the men in black just rock up and threaten everyone when the aliens land near civilians?
Aliens are often seen near Bonnybridge in central Scotland
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/falkirk-triangle-ufo-hot-spot-26419860
much of which is taken by simply stuff cooling down enough to become solid and support suitable environments for evolution
Again - we simply do not know this. A very solar centric view. 🙂 Who is to say that plasma annot create a life form? Same as very low temps ie helium2
The chances of us being the only populated planet in the universe is vanishingly small, because big numbers. It’s a near certainty. The chances of a flying saucer crash-landing in Nevada is even less likely, because big numbers.
I liked the scenario Brain Cox made - it went something like 'imagine two people standing in a vast open space and each shooting a bullet in a random direction at a random time and expecting the bullets to hit each other'.
Again – we simply do not know this. A very solar centric view. 🙂 Who is to say that plasma annot create a life form
I went to a lecture on this when I was at 6th form college and asked all these questions. The response was that whilst theoretically alternatives are possible, they are vanishingly unlikely based on what we know about what life needs to be, which is already pretty rare.
I liked the scenario Brain Cox made – it went something like ‘imagine two people standing in a vast open space and each shooting a bullet in a random direction at a random time and expecting the bullets to hit each other’.
Well yes and no. IF (and it's a huge if) much faster than light travel is even possible, aliens wouldn't just start firing probes or ships in random directions. They'd be systematic about it. But even then, the results depend on how likely life is and how far apart intelligent civilisations are likely to be. The radio signals that give us away are only about 60-70Ly out into space currently, which isn't very far. People are looking for potential life on other planets by scanning the spectra of light received from star systems. We can detect the presence of certain organic molecules, so those are the ones you'd be going for. You can do this within a radius of a few thousand light years but that's still a lot of stars.
The video game Elite Dangerous is played in a shared simulation of the Milky Way, with the same number and distribution of stars and types, and it's modelled as accurately as current science allows. You can jump between stars in about a minute ish on average if you jump constantly; it takes maybe 20 minutes to scan and map a system if you do it thoroughly. The longest jump range of a ship is about 50-60Ly, so flying flat out you can do about that, 50Ly a minute. It takes something like 8-10 hours of flying to cross the galaxy (which isn't long, although it feels like it when playing). It's been online since 2015 and at any given time there are about 3-4,000 people playing it. Despite the ease with which you can travel across the galaxy, only about 0.04% of the star systems have been explored. The sheer number of stars in the galaxy is incredible. Considering that in real life it would take us 20 years or something to get to the nearest star instead of a minute, that puts the scale of the challenge into perspective.
Again - in an infinite universe the unlikely is certain.( and the big brains are divided over the infinite or not)
There is no way we can know this stuff.
"there are more things in heaven and earth than dreamt of in your philosophy"
The response was that whilst theoretically alternatives are possible, they are vanishingly unlikely based on what we know about what life needs to be, which is already pretty rare.
the good thing about an infinite ( or at least bloody large, depending on which science/religion you follow) universe is that, chances are, there is more than one on account of the vastness of the possibilities available.
just because its a small chance doesnt mean there isnt a chance. i refer you to my previous terry pratchett reference haha!
There is no way we can know this stuff.
“there are more things in heaven and earth than dreamt of in your philosophy”
Er yea, good job scientists don't just dream stuff up isn't it? Not sure where you're going with that argument. We know that the alternatives are extremely unlikely, so yeah.
Well yes and no.
I know it was a massively simplistic explanation, but it does start to make normal people able to grasp the massive unlikeliness of us finding alien life / alien life finding us in the vastness of the universe over the entire lifespan of its existence.
I'd love what Grusch says to be true, but when I read anything fantastical now I just automatically assume it's a dead cat strategy to bury some other news.
Not sure where you’re going with that argument. We know that the alternatives are extremely unlikely, so yeah.
the point is that unlikely is not the same as not possible and as above in an infinite ( or near infinite) universe everything no matter how unlikely will have happened at some point in time.
the other point is that we are only able to see things from our own point of view. take plasma based life - its inconceivable to us but that is because of our limitations. Would we even recognise it? Or slow life based on supercooled helium?
the point is that unlikely is not the same as not possible
Obviously
the other point is that we are only able to see things from our own point of view
No, we're really not. Loads of thought has been done on these subjects and not just by you 🙂
take plasma based life – its inconceivable to us but that is because of our limitations
It's not inconceivable, just unknown at this current time. Science allows us to describe things rigorously rather than simply imagining them or otherwise. Start by defining 'life'.
If the universe is finite, what's on the other side?
The idea of it being infinite is beyond most people's comprehension, we like to know that things are contained. To that extent I believe the univers is finite, but had no edges, its like a donut and just keeps looping rounf on itself, however on the other side of the multivers it begins and ends at the sky's edge and all the water in the oceans falls off the edge of the world and the stars are just lights painted on the ceiling.
Back to UAP's, whys is this such a big thing in the USA, as opposed to the rest of the world?
No, we’re really not. Loads of thought has been done on these subjects and not just by you 🙂
Molgrips - you are missing my point. Of course we can only see things from our point of view - we cannot imagine the unimaginable.
Of course loads of big brains have thought about this but no one can escape their limitations and no one can imagine all possibilities as the possibilities are infinite
the other point is that we are only able to see things from our own point of view
No, we’re really not. Loads of thought has been done on these subjects and not just by you 🙂
How many Martians have you asked? Our point of view is the only one we have.
Back to UAP’s, whys is this such a big thing in the USA, as opposed to the rest of the world?
Because despite not having any idea at all how an alien lifeform from another planet might have evolved and developed the one thing we can be sure of is that they will be drawn to 1.867% of our planet's surface which makes up the United States of America.
I love sitting looking up at the night’s sky…. That is until I have this feeling of pointlessness and what’s the point…. Just one dot amongst millions.
This is a good vid on how very very small our little planet is in comparison.
the one thing we can be sure of is that they will be drawn to 1.867% of our planet’s surface which makes up the United States of America.
... the least densely populated parts.
That always used to make me laugh about Star Trek (and most other sci-fi for that matter). They'll go to Rigel IV or whatever and interact with the population, seemingly making things [better|worse] globally. IT'S A PLANET! Imagine aliens coming here and landing at random in a poorer part of Africa. "We visited Earth, very technologically backward planet, they don't even have basic supplies of clean drinking water or effective sanitation."
no one can imagine all possibilities as the possibilities are infinite
No, I disagree. There are only so many elements on the periodic table. There are only so many states of matter. Undoubtedly there are things we don't know about and haven't thought of - but infinite? I'm going with no.
Flip it the other way - thinking on how big and vast the universe is - the thought that we could be the only sentient life out there is, I think, quite terrifying.
Back to UAP’s, whys is this such a big thing in the USA, as opposed to the rest of the world?
It comes and goes in different countries. We certainly had a wave for a while. Its big in the USA right now since for whatever reason the military are releasing quite a lot of information (I think because a UFO nut or two got into fairly senior political positions and so put pressure on them).
In terms of the wider world. Cant find it right now but there is an interesting theory about how people fit unknown things into different categories. So in the past they had ghosts and minor gods and now we use aliens instead.
the thought that we could be the only sentient life out there is, I think, quite terrifying.
Really?
I subscribe to the idea that anyone visiting us currently is not some galactic federation or imperial terraforming concern - we are too insignificant and undeveloped for that; but bored wealthy tourists, political refugees (MIB), or big game hunters (Predator) come here for their own amusement
Bit of a pet obsession of mine. Not saying I'm convinced of little green men etc, but the military reports of UAPs are very interesting, given how these objects appear to defy the laws of physics as we know them - no obvious form of propulsion, ability to change direction at will, ability to change altitude in the blink of an eye from virtually ground level to stratospheric in an instant etc.
Superb eye witness report here from about as credible person as you could ask for. All he does is describe his experience rather than speculate that it's "aliens"
given how these objects appear to defy the laws of physics as we know them – no obvious form of propulsion, ability to change direction at will, ability to change altitude in the blink of an eye from virtually ground level to stratospheric in an instant etc.
how would a cold war era jet fighter appear to a WW1 airman who was born before powered flight was invented?
the thought that we could be the only sentient life out there is, I think, quite terrifying.
Really?
Terrifying might not quite be the word but I agree with the thrust if it means that life on earth is even more incredibly precious than we'd previously thought.
(And I'd include elephants, bonobo and higher primates, octupuses, dolphins in this as sentient not just humans.)
Also, whilst I'm at the top of the page, as molgrips says it's not just about imagination. Maybe a banyan tree is sentient, but seems unlikely according to any useful definition, whatever, carbon chemistry involves complex structures, they just happen and (waves hands) hence life. Silicon chemistry not so much. Plasma? Complex strutures? Or liquid helium? Nah.
I can imagine new atoms, particles etc but so what? There are some parameters as to what is and isn't possible which are not imagination-based. It's about the way the universe is, which means life is overwhelmingly likely to be carbon based. And also on this planet all life seems to share the same underlying chemistry - nucleic acids, RNA, DNA, proteins - as in it's emerged only once from one source, even the stuff clustered round ocean volcanic vents miles from sunlight, bacteria deep in the earth's crust - it's all part of the same stuff, there have not been multiple occurences which is another argument for rareness,
Finally there's a limit to radio waves for remote comms, for me I don't expect to see little green folks, but I would want to listen in to alien Archers. But they're not there.
We could be alone. Us and the squid. Scary...
how would a cold war era jet fighter appear to a WW1 airman who was born before powered flight was invented?
Also, how would a modern drone appear to that fighter pilot?
Of course loads of big brains have thought about this but no one can escape their limitations and no one can imagine all possibilities as the possibilities are infinite
I am with you on this. People (scientists) are limiting themselves by what they THINK they know. Whose to say on other planets light years away there are things that people simply can't comprehend as they are just so different to what WE think life is, life requires etc,.
Man from 1,000 years ago would not have comprehended a lot of stuff we have today...
Due to the characteristics of the periodic table there is basically only one atom that can do this easily – carbon – which we know is very common and widespread in the universe. It’s so good at creating complex structures that it has an entire branch of chemistry devoted to its study which is as big as the rest of chemistry combined. We know that atoms are going to be the same everywhere so other planets with liquid water are quite likely to have the same setup as we have with cells and membranes and all.
I'd posit that Organic Chemistry (the study of carbon) is popular on earth because it is the basis for our lifeform, and the materials we use for survival/economic benefit as well as being relatively easy to do under the conditions of temperature, pressure and atmosphere we have on earth. Its not entirely inconceivable that other "life" could exist based on radically different chemistries in which case if it was sufficiently "evolved" enough to educate/research, other elements may make up the bulk of the research on those planets. If conditions on those planets would not support carbon based life alien-chemists may regard carbon as one of the pesky smaller elements that's hard to work with!
I'd further suggest that its not carbon which is the special part of "life" as we know it - but hydrogen bonding which makes water special. Without hydrogen bonding, water would be a gas at room temperature and pressure and ice would not float on water. Those are pretty unique characteristics for a material. Its very unlikely that anything we would currently recognise as "life" exists without water, but that just makes you ask existential questions about what life means.
However having the basis of life (e.g. simple bacteria) is rather different from "intelligent life" (e.g. dinosaurs) which is further removed from the idea of intelligent life with the knowledge, motivation and technology for inter-planetary travel. There is a possibility that basic life didn't actually start on earth but arrived on comets etc which significantly changes the probability of life other similar DNA based life on other planets.
Humans are (as far as we know) the only life form to have lived on earth with anything close to the means or "intelligence" to attempt interplanetary travel. We've been around for 0.0003% of the planet's existence. Its likely that we won't survive as the dominant species to 0.003% because of our inability to cooperate sensibly together over finite resources. We've still not actually put an actual human on another planet. However life has been around in some form for about 3/4 of earth's history, and complex multicellular organisms for over 10% of the earth's history. Mammal for over 1% of the time.
Man from 1,000 years ago would not have comprehended a lot of stuff we have today…
Again, so what? This is not about comprehension, it's about physics and chemistry and how the universe is (how fundamental particles make atoms and how complex compounds are formed, speed of light etc). That won't change in another 1,000 years.
Jonathan Grey is a generational officer of the United States Intelligence Community with a Top-Secret Clearance who currently works for the National Air and Space Intelligence Center (NASIC), where the analysis of UAP has been his focus. Previously he had experience serving Private Aerospace and Department of Defense Special Directive Task Forces.
“The non-human intelligence phenomenon is real. We are not alone,” Grey said. “Retrievals of this kind are not limited to the United States. This is a global phenomenon, and yet a global solution continues to elude us.
Apparently they don't just visit the US...
But why are they only ever found by the military?
But why are they only ever found by the military?
...and by people whose shirts don't have sleeves?
Good breakdown of numbers involved & the Fermi Paradox here
https://waitbutwhy.com/2014/05/fermi-paradox.html
Thanks for that, 2bit..an interesting read