Forum menu
Murray
Full MemberIt seems to me that many of the rioters really thought they were the good guys – no attempts to hide their faces, lots of people videoing each other. Sadly, Trump wasn’t there lead them as promised.
See, this is where I get a wee bit conflicted. Because if you really, truly believe that your democracy is being overthrown and the election stolen, and that the justice system is equally crooked, then direct action isn't unreasonable. In fact you could argue it's brave.
The fact that you have to be an absolute cretin to actually believe these things is important, but it doesn't really change those basics. One man's terrorist, etc.
Of course, the number of people that will accept that logic for these dudes, or believe that it's their civic duty to turn out on the 20th and make an armed stand and maybe die a heroic death to protect democracy, that and also accept it for say Palestinians throwing rocks at an Israeli soldier or someone strapping on a bomb vest and blowing up an invading US army checkpost in Iraq, is not going to be very big.
https://twitter.com/kyledcheney/status/1350553262865461249
https://twitter.com/kyledcheney/status/1350556980692324358
Makes you wonder why antifa etc don’t do the same?
1. Because "antifa" isn't an organised group in the same way the "fa" is.
2. Because being anti-fascist is likely to make you stand out and be severely limiting to your career. Being...ahem...not anti-fascist won't cause problems for your career as a police officer in the US.
Im still chuckling at trump throwing Giuliani under the bus
Can someone explain the situation with Antifa in the US and how it’s become viewed as negatively as it appears to be.
Far right propaganda basically
Can someone explain the situation with Antifa in the US and how it’s become viewed as negatively as it appears to be.
It's hard to say because it isn't really an organization. It seems to be more of a theory of direct action against fascism and racism, i.e. being confrontational, with scattered groups doing their own thing. From the videos I've seen of antifa in street brawls, they suck at fighting, I don't think they are achieving anything at all. The number of real antifa who are willing to go out and battle it out seems to be pretty small, but the right wingers have been quite successful at lumping the BLM protesters in with antifa in an attempt to scare moderate voters. Personally, I think the hard core antifa people are idiots, they aren't achieving anything and they are discrediting the peaceful protestors who are much more likely to actually change things. Idiots or not, there just aren't very many antifa, they're a minor nuisance overall. The right wing militias are more dangerous by a couple of orders of magnitude and the antifa nonsense is distracting everyone from the serious threat.
They're the hunt saboteurs of American 'on the ground' politics.
Makes you wonder why antifa etc don’t do the same?
People opposed to fascism do infiltrate the police, but when they do they aim to expose corruption and improve things for their whole community and the police, see Small Axe episode 3, Red, White and Blue about Leroy Logan, and Spike Lee’sBlack Kkklansman.
I guess the point is that fascists are a cancerous growth who will kill a democracy if allowed to grow their influence unchecked, and those who oppose them are not. Opposition to fascism is not equivalency with fascism.
Because if you really, truly believe that your democracy is being overthrown and the election stolen, and that the justice system is equally crooked, then direct action isn’t unreasonable. In fact you could argue it’s brave.
They're idiots, but they were conned by somebody they should have been able to trust. Most of them hadn't sworn to uphold the Constitution. If Trump had accepted the election result, they would not have been in the Capitol. If they're getting prosecuted, there's no way he should escape (which doesn't mean he won't).
See, this is where I get a wee bit conflicted. Because if you really, truly believe that your democracy is being overthrown and the election stolen, and that the justice system is equally crooked, then direct action isn’t unreasonable. In fact you could argue it’s brave.
The fact that you have to be an absolute cretin to actually believe these things is important, but it doesn’t really change those basics. One man’s terrorist, etc.
The trouble is, we’ve been here before, and luckily nobody was hurt. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-washingtondc-gunman/man-pleads-guilty-in-washington-pizzeria-shooting-over-fake-news-idUSKBN16V1XC
This time it was bigger and people died.
Yup, antifa are a largely made-up bogeyman for right wingers to fear. But it doesn't take much, lots of them are genuinely convinced that Joe Biden is a communist.
I'm getting the think this "radical left" moniker being thrown around is an anti environmentalist thang. Wouldn't be surprise if this whole pro trump thing ends at the door of big oil.
Antifa have always been hyped up beyond their real significance.they occasionally pose a threat to property but rarely to life and liberty.
Antifa are irrelevant in relation to current events and will become increasingly more irrelevant in the coming months. This past year Antifa conflated their interests with BLM and did it a disservice.
Future BLM protesrs will be decoupled from Antifa entirely now that Trump is out of office. Recent events will change the narrative to good police vs bad police, rather than the police vs the people. The blue lives matter trope has become more than meaningless, it has revealed itself to be nothing more than the racist trope it always was.
Those flying the blue lives matter flag were saying to the police 'you work for us (white people)'. This sentiment trapped the poloce, as good police could hardly reject the support and the sympathies it falsely expressed. That's all changed now that the blue lives flag on a pole has literally been used to beat police officers.
I’m getting the think this “radical left” moniker being thrown around is an anti environmentalist thang. Wouldn’t be surprise if this whole pro trump thing ends at the door of big oil.
There are fringe environmentalists who take things too far and give their opponents an easy target, just like the antifa people, but this is much more general than just anti-environmentalism. Oil companies are greedy capitalists, but I don't think they are part of a conspiracy to overthrow democracy, they are just profit oriented with a very short-term outlook.
The typical pattern with these things is that people vastly overestimate the genius of their opponents. The biggest argument against conspiracies is that very few people are smart enough of discrete enough to set them up and keep them secret.
The pro-Trump thing mostly just seems to be a sense of grievance that the world has changed and people who used to feel like they were running things now feel powerless. They are right in that America used to be White dominated and is now becoming much more multi-cultural, but they are basically thinly disguised white supremicists at best. At worst, they are openly Nazis.
Is this just a case of her having too many jobs and VP is the most important right now?
No it's because she becomes President of the Senate.
Is this just a case of her having too many jobs and VP is the most important right now?
You have to pick one job. You can't be VP and a U.S. Senator at the same time.
The way it was written made me think there was more to it than "someone does what they're supposed to do".
The way it was written made me think there was more to it than “someone does what they’re supposed to do”.
She can't be VP and Senator at the same time. It's purely procedural. She's a lawyer, she's collecting salary and benefits until she starts her new job.
That’s all changed now that the blue lives flag on a pole has literally been used to beat police officers.
This is a very interesting take on all this.
Oil companies are greedy capitalists, but I don’t think they are part of a conspiracy to overthrow democracy, they are just profit oriented with a very short-term outlook.
I don't think it's even a conspiracy theory to say that fossil fuel companies/the Koch brothers etc are behind lots of anti-science 'research' and that they also support shady hard right groups.
I doubt they care too much about democracy either way but Trump was a godsend for mining/drilling/tearing up environmental regulations etc.
Just a reminder that the FBI, apparently, haven't made much progress in identifying the truly dangerous participants.
https://www.emptywheel.net/2021/01/17/opsec-shaming-misses-the-terrorists-for-the-forest-of-bozos-they-hid-behind/
Just had an interaction with half a dozen of the trump nutters on PinkBike. Trump never said to storm the capitol (transcript provided didn’t use the EXACT phrase you see) it’s all antifa, the mainstream media and anyone who disagrees has been brainwashed. Apparently I should educate myself.
So there’s that. Rather frustratingly they aren’t really being called out, save for ‘let’s just talk about bikes’ calls, so are getting the last word.
More and more I’m thinking the longer any trials he has go on, the longer he will have a platform and the less time people will have to forget about him come 2024. Regardless of who runs, I think he will be a major player, unless he is in prison. Even then, he’ll be a martyr. He’ll have influence for decades as plenty of others will want to continue his legacy/ride that wave.
tomhoward
Full Member
Just had an interaction with half a dozen of the trump nutters on PinkBike. Trump never said to storm the capitol (transcript provided didn’t use the EXACT phrase you see) it’s all antifa, the mainstream media and anyone who disagrees has been brainwashed. Apparently I should educate myself.
In reference to Trump, anti vax, anti mask, Covid deniers...
...if someone says "wake up" or "do your own research" once more I think I'll burst into a hot ember.😁
In reference to Trump, anti vax, anti mask, Covid deniers…
...climate change and cops who pick and choose what laws they enforce. Oh, and what freedom means.
Looks like I’ve got a lot of reading to do. I assume all these theories have been published and peer reviewed, and not just nutters on YouTube?
thols2
Free MemberOil companies are greedy capitalists, but I don’t think they are part of a conspiracy to overthrow democracy
Overthrow it? Not in the west, no. In the oil producing contries, bit different. But in the west at least- undermine or redirect it? Get it to do things that are counter to the interests of the voters? Absolutely.
Just a reminder that the FBI, apparently, haven’t made much progress in identifying the truly dangerous participants.
Or they are waiting for 12:01 on the 20th....
I saw this....
…if someone says “wake up” or “do your own research” once more I think I’ll burst into a hot ember.😁
... and I thought of this;
Q: How many conspiracy theorists does it take to change a light bulb?
A: Do your own research.
^^ lol, yeah, the "do your own research" is just a get out of jail free card for trying to say any old crap is actually true.
I was expecting this. A timeline of Parler videos. Scary stuff.
'The radical fringe is a cause for concern. The thousands of regular people whipped into a murderous rage is the real nightmare.'
https://twitter.com/charlesornstein/status/1350896688907612163?s=19
https://www.propublica.org/article/inside-the-capitol-riot-what-the-parler-videos-reveal
Do your own research
Do you own a library card?
the timeline is a beautiful piece of work by them and by the woman who scraped all that stuff. It's an amazing record
^^ Came across that earlier. I'm guessing they also wanted the video kept safe from being "lost" from Parler.👍
https://www.newyorker.com/news/video-dept/a-reporters-footage-from-inside-the-capitol-siege
This is fantastic. Shows the combination of amateurism, fanaticism, idiocy, aggression and ignorance that characterised the assault on the Capitol. Unbelievable.
^^ In that vid which is a must watch.... The cop telling them "we love you guys, take it easy" as he lets them go up a stairway.😐
Wtf. There are a lot of people in positions of authority, lowly cop upward, they must be absolutely sh*thing a brick right now.
They get in the Senate..... and basically behave like a load of 6 formers without a clue what they hell they are meant to be doing there not the storming has Bern done.
"Where is everybody?"
Amazing stuff.
Sorry, can't edit all the typos!
"Wtf. There are a lot of people in positions of authority, lowly cop upward, they must be absolutely sh*thing a brick right now."
Yep, there must be a lot of people with square arseholes right now.
^^ Rectangular if they are unlucky.😁
I'm rooting for the bricks.
That (astonishing) propublica video collection link:
https://projects.propublica.org/parler-capitol-videos/
I can’t help imagining viewing it through ‘Covid-19-eyes’. Mmmmm, looks...fertile...🦠
There is A LOT there - the FBI are going to be scraping those vids for weeks. I think anyone there in "tactical" gear will automatically lose any legal argument about their intent.
Also, anyone else reminded of this seeing the police response?
A lot of the faces in those videos are going to go from impunity to paranoia very quickly. That sense of certainty and entitlement is going to be suddenly whipped away from them as they get a knock at the door.
A lot of the low hanging fruit will be told to expect charges in a month or so (there's an understandable back-log of more serious cases to deal with first). In the meantime they be asked to "keep an ear out for anything that sounds like it might be of interest to us, you never know, it might even help with your case when it comes up, we know you're not one of the really bad guys right?".
The militias and 'stop the steal' type groups will likely descend into a spiral of mis-trust, false accusation and paranoia. Their energies will start to be directed inward and they'll begin to destroy themselves from within.
Not that they can't cause an incredible amount of damage in the meantime though.
Some participants will return to normality. The rest will go underground and wait for their new (or old) fuhrer to arrive (return). That is why it is so important to prosecute Trump and all his enablers urgently.
One perspective on leaving the impeachment hearings for a later date is that it could hold Trump and his cohorts even more liable if there is more trouble over the next few weeks. It could also have the opposite effect, in that his supporters 'stand down' until the hearings are over in order to not jeapordise the fate of their dear leader.