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I might be younger than you but I feel the opposite. I spent my whole life – until a couple of years ago – thinking that the USA was just UK+
Ever since I became politically aware in my teens in the 70s I loathed the US. As per others - the obvious racism, the pollution, the guns, the pseudo democracy.
Most of all tho for the vietnam war, the toppling of democratic governments to replace them with dictators and its general malign presence on the world stage
Most of all tho for the vietnam war, the toppling of democratic governments to replace them with dictators and its general malign presence on the world stage
But apart from that, what have the Americans ever done for us?
reluctantjumper
I was of a similar mindset, feeling more American than European until I went to California for a holiday when I was 17. It was when I was flying back that I came to the conclusion that I was more aligned to the America you see on TV, the Friends or Seinfeld version of ‘all together having fun’ America. The reality was very, very different with open racism, bigotry, lack of freedoms (I got questioned by a Cop for walking from the hotel to the beach, apparently only criminals walk around in the evening!) and so little in the way of support for the low paid that I couldn’t wait to get back home. I’ve since travelled a bit of Europe and we are so much more like them culturally except that we don’t share a common language. If we spoke French or German here, even as a second language, people would be so much more aware of how close we are to the people over the Channel than the ones the other side of the Atlantic. I know the US is a massive place with a myriad of different cultures and values but so is mainland Europe. I know which one I prefer.
What a great post and so true. I've only been to America once, Texas and Louisiana, though I very much enjoyed it I thanked my lucky stars that I was born in the UK.
I was very much in love with America as seen on the silver screen, close up and for real it would become ugly very fast.
A very contrived, fake, plastic culture was what I remember feeling.
The disparity of wealth largely based on colour was a real eye opener to say the least.
Did anyone else notice the deliberate/not deliberate "miss-speaking" in his statement at 2min 54sec?
"but I cannot emphasise that there must be no violence, no law breaking and no vandalism"
Classic double negative!
its general malign presence on the world stage
Your criticisms of U.S. foreign policy have some merit, but the U.S. has also contributed a lot to international stability. They have some deep-rooted domestic problems, but the U.S. is still a better place to live than most countries. By world standards, their courts are pretty honest and their police quite restrained. Other countries around the world tend to tolerate U.S. military bases rather than welcome them, but they do tolerate them because having American troops is generally a stabilizing presence.
The Trump administration tried to back away from the positive aspects of U.S. international policy and other democracies are hoping the Biden administration will go back to supporting international institutions. That's not to say that the U.S. doesn't have serious faults, but their contribution has not been entirely bad. Russia's and China's behaviour has generally been much more malign than the U.S.
but they do tolerate them because having American troops is generally a stabilizing presence.
Try telling that to the Japanese on Okinawa. try telling that to the Chagos islanders. try telling that to the Cubans. try telling that to the Chileans
Sorry I reject your thesis in total. the US are a destabilising and regressive force on the world stage. How many democratic governments have they overthrown to install right wing oppressive dictators? How many people have they killed since WW2?
Oh! mama, mama look there!
Your children are playing in that street again
Don't you know what happened down there?
A youth of fourteen got shot down there
The kokane guns of jamdown town
The killing clowns, the blood money men
Are shooting those washington bullets again
As every cell in chile will tell
The cries of the tortured men
Remember allende, and the days before,
Before the army came
Please remember victor jara,
In the santiago stadium,
Es verdad - those washington bullets again
And in the bay of pigs in 1961,
Havana fought the playboy in the cuban sun,
For castro is a colour,
Is a redder than red,
Those washington bullets want castro dead
For castro is the colour...
...that will earn you a spray of lead
For the very first time ever,
When they had a revolution in nicaragua,
There was no interference from america
Human rights in america
Well the people fought the leader,
And up he flew...
With no washington bullets what else could he do?
'n' if you can find a afghan rebel
That the moscow bullets missed
Ask him what he thinks of voting communist...
...ask the dalai lama in the hills of tibet,
How many monks did the chinese get?
In a war-torn swamp stop any mercenary,
'n' check the british bullets in his armoury
Que?
Sandinista!
Russia’s and China’s behaviour has generally been much more malign than the U.S.
They are not without fault by all means but the US is a order of magnitude more malign.
Look to the Iran Iraq war where the US armed both sides
Look to the middle east where they armed and trained what is now ISIS
Look at damage done to central and south american countries
Sorry I reject your thesis in total.
Read a tiny bit of history - if it wasnt for the US the Soviet Union would have steamrollered Western Europe.
I'll help you: Go look where the RUSSIAN border ends. Go look at where the border of East Germany was. That bit between the two - a free, peacefull workers paradise was it?
Go read about the Berlin blockade.
Bloody easy to dis the US when you're as far as way from the red bear as you were/are.
That’s not to say that the U.S. doesn’t have serious faults, but their contribution has not been entirely bad.
In S and central America it has been almost universally disgraceful. Then there's Vietnam, Cambodia, Iraq, and many many others. Which countries has China invaded recently?
China is behaving in a very aggressive manner towards its neighbours. It has a low-level conflict going on with India. It is occupying Tibet. It has put a million muslims into concentration camps. It also has border disputes with Vietnam and the Philippines, plus disputes with Japan. It has ended any hopes of democracy and free speech in Hong Kong. The only thing stopping it from invading Taiwan is the fear that it would provoke the U.S. into intervening. The Asian countries that have U.S. bases are generally unhappy about the behaviour of U.S. troops, but they want those bases because China and North Korea are much, much worse than the U.S. Japan and South Korea are fairly liberal democracies. The U.S. bases are their because their elected governments want them there.
Russia is a gangster state that is currently at war with Ukraine, invaded Georgia not so long ago, threatens its other neighbours, murders opposition politicians and dissidents in other countries, etc.
The U.S. has often behaved terribly and supported dictators around the world. However, the reality is that the U.S. supported international system is far preferable to a system dominated by Russia or China. That's why the Western democracies are keen to see a Biden administration reengage.
They are not without fault by all means but the US is a order of magnitude more malign.
Yesterday was the 30th anniversary of the massacre at the Vilnius TV tower as Lithuania sought its independence from Russia. Russian soldiers killed 14 civilians and injured 702 in the violence. I emphasise - 30 years ago we had Russian tanks running over civilians in a European capital.
Today people in the Baltic countries live in fear of the "little green men" that annexed parts of Ukraine.
Interested in how you would explain to a Lithuanian, Latvian, Estonian, Czech, Pole etc that Russia is an order of magnitude less malign than the US? Also noting that it's a near certainty their family suffered actual real harm at the hand of the Russians.
Try telling that to the Japanese on Okinawa
Yeah those poor peaceful Japanese. They did nothing wrong.
WTAF!
I have read history and you are rewriting it.
Berlin blockade was after the allied side tried to freeze russia out of the 4 powers agreement. Basically it was precipitated by allied powers acting in poor faith.
Which countries has China invaded recently?
Tibet is a huge issue.
gobuchul
not WW2 Okinawa - the existence of the US base there now - it was in the context of:
Other countries around the world tend to tolerate U.S. military bases rather than welcome them, but they do tolerate them because having American troops is generally a stabilizing presence.
The Japanese people loathe the presence of US troops in Okinawa because of the trouble they cause and the impunity with which they act. Multiple gross crimes committed by US troups.
Whereas Chinese troops in Xinjiang...
The Japanese people loathe the presence of US troops in Okinawa
I'm pretty sure the Chinese didn't appreciate the presence of the Japanese in Nanjinng.
Berlin blockade was after the allied side tried to freeze russia out of the 4 powers agreement. Basically it was precipitated by allied powers acting in poor faith.
What utter nonsense. Do you seriously believe that Joseph Stalin ever made agreements in good faith? He was a murderous brute who caused the death of tens of millions.
Of course, one of the events that led to the collapse of the Soviet Bloc was the fall of the Berlin Wall. This was erected to stop East Germans from defecting to the West. It was guarded by armed soldiers who shot anybody trying to cross it. The key point here is that any West German who wanted to go and live in the East could have done so, but they didn't want to because the East was run by a murderous totalitarian regime. However, East Germans who wanted to flee that regime and live in the West were shot. That says a lot about the relative attraction of the two systems.
The same goes for the U.S. It has many problems, but there are millions of refugees around the world who risk their lives to seek something better in the U.S. American citizens do not risk their lives seeking refugee status in Russia, or China, or Cuba.
Yes, the U.S. has not always lived up to its own standards, but it is still far preferable to most other countries.
History is written by the winners. The building of the wall and the blockade are two different issues. Its nothing like as simplistic as yo ustate
Yes, the U.S. has not always lived up to its own standards, but it is still far preferable to most other countries.
utter nonsense - it may be a good place to live for some but its actions internationally have been nothing but harmfull and malign since the 60s. Look at Chile. A democratically elected government overthrown by force bu US led forces that ushered in a right wing dictatorship that killed huge numbers of people. thats just one example of many. How many people dead as a result of US backed coups in south and central america?
The Japanese people loathe the presence of US troops in Okinawa because of the trouble they cause and the impunity with which they act. Multiple gross crimes committed by US troups.
This is the kind of nonsense that Donald Trump put forward for stopping all immigration. Some immigrants do engage in crime, some of it heinous. However, most of them are generally law abiding and contribute to the U.S. A few U.S. troops have committed heinous crimes, but they were prosecuted and sent to military prison. Other U.S. troops commit frequent nuisance level crimes, the same sorts of things that locals also commit. They are basically a bunch of macho young men who like to get drunk and do dumb shit. Very annoying for the locals, but most of it is just nuisance stuff. The Japanese government (and other governments around the world) want U.S. bases because it stabilizes a region that has a lot of historical grievances. If those U.S. bases were suddenly removed, Japan would have little choice but to develop nuclear weapons to deter North Korea. Same goes for South Korea. That would be a much, much worse scenario than having some U.S. Marines getting drunk and behaving like ****s. That's why democratic countries tolerate U.S. bases, without being particularly happy about it.
Gobuchal - I am talking about ongoing rapes committed by US troups in Okinawa that continues to this day. they are loathed for their actions - not wartimwe stuff but things that continue to this day
Jeepers the whataboutery. Okinawa I used as an example to disprove the statement that US bases are welcomed, How about Guantanamo?
Okinawa I used as an example to disprove the statement that US bases are welcomed
They are not welcomed, they are tolerated because the alternative is much, much worse.
. They are basically a bunch of macho young men who like to get drunk and do dumb shit. Very annoying for the locals, but most of it is just nuisance stuff.
That is downplaying it hugely. How about the local mayor being labelled a Chinese agent because he want to stop the crimes ( which are not low level crimes) by having the base removed.
You really need to read up a bit more on it.
Now how about the south american coups? How many dead?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change_in_Latin_America
They are not welcomed, they are tolerated because the alternative is much, much worse.
Guantanao?
The bases are as much to threaten the countries they are in as they are to protect them.
general malign presence on the world stage
there’s much to criticise the US for by any standard, but this is just propaganda Russia is a malign presence, as are dictatorships like Iran or North Korea.
US has enacted imperialism through trade deals, forcing countries to adopt US style economic (or drugs) policy or be effectively blockaded.
Russian interference is more direct and less subtle, but no where near as effective. China is copying america's blueprint but is still new at the game.
30 000 dead at least in Argentina after the coup. etc etc
its utter bobbins to even attempt to claim the US is a force for good on the world stage. they are utterly malign
How about arming both sides in iran / iraq?
How about funding, training and arming ISIS
how about funding, training and arming the taliban?
I’m with thols2 on this. For all its faults (and I completely agree they are numerous and many esp in the field of foreign relations) I’d much rather have the US in charge than Russia or China. Soviet Russia was an abomination, although of course that doesn’t men to say they intended to take over the world, which was often the excuse used by the US for its appalling foreign policy.
But aren’t we getting a bit off topic. The reality is what has happened in this election is more about domestic politics, with foreign policy being an outcome?
actions internationally have been nothing but harmfull and malign since the 60s.
You would condemn the "malign" role of the US in the Good Friday Agreement? How do you feel about Clinton's decision not to intervene in the Rwandan genocide? That was case where the US sat back and didn't act.
Still interested on your thoughts on Central and Eastern Europe and how that fits with the US being an order of magnitude more malign.
More whataboutery.
Crimes committed by Russia and china do not excuse those committed by the US nor deminish their impact
I ask again - how about the coups in south america How many millions dead? How about arming both sides in the Iran iraq war.
Okinawa base is opposed by the vast majority of the japanese people
But aren’t we getting a bit off topic. The reality is what has happened in this election is more about domestic politics, with foreign policy being an outcome?
Sorry - I'll drop the debate.
i find it utterly frustrating tho that people cannot see how malign the US is
The bases are as much to threaten the countries they are in as they are to protect them.
Nope. They are there because, after WW2, the U.S. led democratic countries realized they were better off setting up a stable international system where disputes weren't constantly turning into wars. Japan and South Korea both rejected communism and joined the Western alliance. There is resentment about U.S. bases, but both countries are liberal democracies and neither country wants to leave the U.S. led system and take their chances with a Chinese led system. Donald Trump gave Japan and South Korea a perfect opportunity to kick the U.S. troops out. Neither country took that opportunity because they want those bases there.
That's not to say that the U.S. is perfect, but if you think Iran, Saudi Arabia, China, Russia, North Korea, Venezuala, etc. are better, you are seriously deluded about the state of the world.
This history lesson is great but a bit off-topic. Remember that Trump is the first president in 40 years or something not to start a new ground war. Maybe he should be lauded for that?
I’d much rather have the US in charge than Russia or China.
The problem is there is clear western political resistance to Russia or China being in charge, we have just let America trample all over international diplomacy without barely a whimper of resistance.
I would rather a European style socially responsible democracy be the leading world light, rather than Americas selfish bigotry.
MSP - in truth so would I probably but it isn’t going to happen.
TJ would you rather live in a world dominated by the US or in one dominated by the Russians and Chinese?
Another question, It’s generally assumed that the world since 1945 has developed more in terms of rules based free trade, a general trend towards democratically elected governments, greatly increased rates of health and a decrease in mortality rates and a growing respect fir the rights of women. Do you think the US has helped or hindered?
The U.S. has often behaved terribly and supported dictators around the world. However, the reality is that the U.S. supported international system is far preferable to a system dominated by Russia or China.
To paraphrase Churchill;
Many world superpowers have been, and will be, in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that America is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that America is the worst of world superpowers - except for all those other world superpowers...
TJ - I absolutely do see how malign the US, but I still think the democratic ideals it claims to represent, even if they are not lived up to, are far better than the alternatives.
I would rather a European style socially responsible democracy be the leading world light, rather than Americas selfish bigotry.
By, say, some sort of closely aligned Union of European countries, you mean?
(sorry, someone had to)
To be fair TJ has said he’ll drop it now so we should stop debating this point 😀
Edited - to dropit
thanks timborg
This history lesson is great but a bit off-topic. Remember that Trump is the first president in 40 years or something not to start a new ground war. Maybe he should be lauded for that?
I don't think you can make that call until many, many years later. There are examples of wars that should have been avoided and turn into disasters, and wars that were avoided and turn into disasters. Not aware that for example Kennedy started a ground war? Bay of Pigs maybe but that's debatable.
.
Remember that Trump is the first president in 40 years or something not to start a new ground war.
He's still got eight days. Give him a chance.
I can imagine the Trunp claiming that he was the best at being President as he’s been impeached more times than any other President...it’s the sort of dumb shit he comes out with.