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Through choice I live in a medium-sized town, close (1K) to the town centre, where everything is 10 minutes walk, work is a 10-minute bike ride, kids walk to school, and kids after school sports are all within 1/2 mile from the house and now we both work predominantly from home. This makes a massive difference to our carbon footprint even with an SUV hence its low emissions (25K miles in 5 years), compared to if we lived a few miles further out with EV, as every journey would have to be driven.
The kids have friends that live up in the peak, it's over 1 hour round trip to school, football training, shopping, etc. For many of them, it's a 10 mile round trip for a pint of milk. Living out there is a lifestyle choice for most of them with a massive environmental impact. On the other hand, I grew in the suburbs of Leeds again you had to drive to go anywhere unless you were going into the city centre or as public transport around the city was dreadful, it was great getting into Leeds ( i know because we didn't have a car). For me, town planning has to be more sustainable.
From my house, we can manage everything if we wanted on foot or by bike this is a deliberate choice and we've built our lifestyle around this. It also maximises our free time as we are not spending huge chunks of the day in cars. These things are not black and white, it's easy to point figures as I said I think the best option for the environment, which actually costs me money, is to keep the SUV as it delays another car being created for probably another 9-10 years rather than getting an EV which will sit on the drive.
From my house:
Boys football training 50m
The nearest pub, the garage where a car is serviced, van hire, timber yard, chippy 100m.
Hospital, Coop convenience store, park for kids to play in, primary school 500m
Sainsbury's, Dance studio ( we are there several times a night) 700m
B & Q, Halfords, town centre, favourite pub 1k
Train, Station Aldi (where do most of my shopping) 1.2K
Kids high school and kids home football ground, swimming pool 1.6K
Work 4K
One would hope that the switch to EV’s will lead to less unnecessary journeys as drivers will need to think about the range more carefully.
I had to have a word with myself earlier this year when we got our 1st electric car (a Leaf), because I noticed the opposite was true. I'd nip to the shops more readily in the Leaf, thinking that it's eco-acceptable. Previously, I would have walked rather than take the ICE car.
The range thing isn't relevant for small journeys when you can always make sure it's 'brimmed' by plugging in at home.
Worrying about SUVs vs slightly more efficient equivalent cars seems futile to say the least.
Got to start somewhere though.
Just don’t have a coffee while you’re thinking about it.
https://circularcoffee.org/manifesto/
Whilst we are worrying about SUVs, I don't see much parallel evidence of people worrying about horses. Great big gas bag, methane emitting resource gobbling beasties whose owners consume vast amounts of resources just to keep and move their hefty pet around. A bit like children*.
I'd just ban horse ownership for anything other than genuine working arrangements:- Farm work, forestry, RDA centres. Horse racing and gambling are a horribly toxic mix anyway. Hunting is completely indefensible. Eventing, showjumping etc etc are vastly resource intensive and harmful on most levels. Killing two birds with one stone; eat the horses and watch the SUV ownership subside. And as for the it's not-an-HGV horse boxes....
*Disclaimer. My wife & I decided not to have kids, for environmental reasons, about 30 years ago. Even back then it was quite clear that there were already far, far too many rich, resource intensive, greedy westerners on the planet and it's a whole lot worse now.
Worrying about SUVs vs slightly more efficient equivalent cars seems futile to say the least.
The details of numerous studies show that it is worth tackling though. Which we need to do alongside everything else. Not sure about the horses thing yet...
SUVs were the second largest cause of the global rise in carbon dioxide emissions over the past decade, eclipsing all shipping, aviation, heavy industry and even trucks, usually the only vehicles to loom larger than them on the road. Each year, SUVs belch out 700 megatonnes of CO2, about the entire output of the UK and Netherlands combined. If all SUV drivers banded together to form their own country, it would rank as the seventh largest emitter in the world.
from that Graudrian article above
greedy westerners
Wait til you see what happens to Easterners when they reach the same levels of affluence.
This makes a massive difference to our carbon footprint even with an SUV hence its low emissions (25K miles in 5 years), compared to if we lived a few miles further out with EV, as every journey would have to be driven.
Why would you have to move a few miles further out if you had an EV?
What if you only did 5k a year but in an EV?
We seem to get wrapped up in the Co2 created when producing a brand new EV, and seem to forget that at street level they don't produce any fumes, NOX etc, thus giving us cleaner air in our towns etc.
Running your diesel for umpteen years might be better for the environment on one hand, but on the other.......
Whilst we are worrying about SUVs, I don’t see much parallel evidence of people worrying about horses.
Have you been looking hard?
Maybe write to your local paper about it? Preferably in green ink.
it is expected that people will be driving literally everywhere
They already do! There are cars pouring into our local supermarket every second of the day (well, when it's open anyway). There's usually about two or three people at the bus stop with shopping at any given time, and when I walk there (virtue signalling mode activated) I might see one other person shopping on foot.
*Disclaimer. My wife & I decided not to have kids, for environmental reasons, about 30 years ago. Even back then it was quite clear that there were already far, far too many rich, resource intensive, greedy westerners on the planet and it’s a whole lot worse now.
This may have been a bad choice - your child could have been the one who had the insight to solve the problem of nuclear fusion or some other thing that resulted in their existence having a massively negative impact on the carbon footprint of humankind.
People are not necessarily like dogs/horses which will just consume stuff then die. Sure, some people are like that but do you think humankind's carbon footprint would be higher in 2030 if Greta Thunberg had never been born or lower?
Greta Thunberg had never been born or lower
Exactly the same because she hasn’t actually done anything to reduce emissions. She has traveled allot, silken, shouted and ranted allot. But she hasn’t actually achieved anything in reality
That's a bit like saying the marketing department of coca cola never made any difference to sales.
This thread is equally hilarious and depressing.
Stop looking at other people and judging them. Start looking at yourself and try to minimise your impact. Pressure (vote) our politicians to enforce rules which gently guide people to make better choices (better rules for new cars increasing energy efficiency, making more sustainable and less polluting fuels more viable economic, better infrastructure and public transport). Bitching at someone because they chose something that you find wrong, without understanding their or your impact is just stupid.
Slight tangent, but the govt could send out a clear message by prioritising supermarket delivery vehicles over regular traffic by allowing them into the designated bus, taxi and cycle lanes.
I can understand the attraction of being able to ‘click and collect’ your groceries from the supermarket.
Ideally, we should still be walking or cycling to the shops, if only for the perishables.
This fulfils our hunter/ gatherer needs (it’s what we’re designed for).
Stop looking at other people and judging them. Start looking at yourself and try to minimise your impact. Pressure (vote) our politicians to enforce rules which gently guide people to make better choices
Not sure who you are talking to but they are not listening. And as for pressuring our politicians, have you seen the governments the UK votes into power?
My impact is pretty low (low car use of very efficient car, vegetarian for 40 years, buy most food from from shop which sources mostly locally etc,.) and I vote Green. What do I do next please?
But she hasn’t actually achieved anything in reality
Strongly disagree.
What do I do next please?
Sacrifice yourself and your family for the greater good according to some on here 😏
She's only the most famous climate change protester in the world, inspiring millions of young and old people to take up the cause, so to suggest she's had no impact is misconceived.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-49918719
Strongly disagree.
Agreed - she has brought climate change into focus for so many, especially the younger generation. To say she has done nothing shows an incredible misunderstanding of what she has done and is continuing to do – she is an incredible person.
Ideally, we should still be walking or cycling to the shops, if only for the perishables.
This fulfils our hunter/ gatherer needs (it’s what we’re designed for).
I know I say this on every thread where this comes up, but what incredibly energy dense products are you guys eating and drinking? A weekly to a week and a halfly shop* for me and the missus fills a small trolley and subsequently the boot of my admittedly small car. I almost always go on the way home from work, so about 0.5miles extra.
I would need to go on a near daily basis and have a very well thought out rota for buying the larger items if we were limited to a backpack. And that removes the ability to buy some items in bulk for reduced packaging and manufacturer transportation costs.
*we waste almost no food, only the offcuts/cores/skins of vegetables really gets thrown out; ignore useby dates unless there is visible mold or smell.
To say she has done nothing shows an incredible misunderstanding of what she has done and is continuing to do – she is an incredible person.
Very much. Even at a minimum she is that annoying person that the world leaders and others don't want to have to deal with as they know she is right.
Talking to a lot of people recently Greta is
seen as so deeply annoying and whiny that I think she has turned off more people to doing something than she has persuaded. She is a deeply decisive character and makes it easy for the unwilling majority to dismiss people campaigning for the environment as tree huggers, swampies and whiny children.
In my opinion a more grown up and less emoting/emotive figurehead for the environmental movement would be much more useful.
In my opinion a more grown up and less emoting/emotive figurehead for the environmental movement would be much more useful.
Like all of those other less emoting/emotive figureheads we have all never heard of?
Yes, like them.
Yes, like them.
Well I guess they won't divide opinion if no-one ever hears their opinions...
Talking to a lot of people recently Greta is
seen as so deeply annoying and whiny that I think she has turned off more people to doing something than she has persuaded.
Personally I've observed (mostly) the opposite.
She's a fantastic figurehead precisely because she's "annoying". Someone with less strength and persistence would have given up.
She's only annoying because the kind of people who find her annoying know she's right and personal attacks on her just seem to bounce off.
There is a minority (the Boomer-Gammon demographic) that just don't like being told what to do by an autistic teenage girl who's still better at public speaking in a 2nd language than they are in their 1st. But they're becoming ever easier to ignore themselves.
Greta is great. Raising awareness, engaging with a generation that typically avoids politics and speaking truth to power.
Not only that you can use people's reactions to her as an almost fool proof arsehole detector.
I don't think they are a minority though. There are huge swathes of people across the country who just want to work, drive about, have children, and go on holiday and not "be made to feel guilty for it" and won't accept any change to their lifestyle being "forced" upon them. You might not be speaking to them but they are all out there.
thisisnotaspoon has hit the nail on the head with what they think though.
One of the biggest challenges I think there is with regard to public opinion is that many people have flipped straight from not being worried about the environment to thinking we are all doomed so why change.
It's not my opinion and it depresses me, but I hear it a lot. Just wanted to provide an alternative narrative.
And I don't have an answer to jondoh about who should be the figurehead. The potential candidates might all be getting on with driving policy, quite glad that wee Greta is taking the flack and being the butt of all the jokes.
I know I say this on every thread where this comes up, but what incredibly energy dense products are you guys eating and drinking?
Mostly ‘Cup-a-soup’.
Just kidding. What I meant was, get your bulky, staple foods delivered and pop round to the supermarket for the fruit and veg.
In my opinion a more grown up and less emoting/emotive figurehead for the environmental movement would be much more useful.
Attenborough grown up enough for you? If the answer is yes, then remember he thinks Thunberg is fantastic.
They're both right.
There are huge swathes of people across the country who just want to work, drive about, have children, and go on holiday and not “be made to feel guilty for it” and won’t accept any change to their lifestyle being “forced” upon them. You might not be speaking to them but they are all out there.
Equally there are people out there who just want to go around murdering people. etc etc
Personally I think the bigger problem demographic is the "Politicians need to do something" middle ground. The ones that have convinced themselves it's someone else problem to solve. Just read through this thread at them "but my SUV is no worse than [straw man's] T5/Ferrari/flight to Spain". They're the ones that will sign up to Octopus energy and put a green border on their facebook page for earth day, but they wouldn't support adding fuel duty on their half term ski trip to Tignes, putting a CO2 tax on meat and dairy food, or making petrol £2/litre. They'd argue that it's "too much", possibly days after arguing that something has to be done (to someone else).
[yes this is a hypothetical mix of various opinions expressed by people on this forum mashed together, less straw man, more Frankenstein's Gen-X monster]
The people who find her annoying are the ones who can't see past their own selfish noses on any topic. We know they exist because their voting habits have saddled us with our current shambles of a govt. To them, climate change is great because it means beaches in Marbella will be hot year round.
I don’t think they are a minority though. There are huge swathes of people across the country who just want to work, drive about, have children, and go on holiday and not “be made to feel guilty for it” and won’t accept any change to their lifestyle being “forced” upon them. You might not be speaking to them but they are all out there.
But that isn't what she is doing though – she is challenging world leaders to do something about climate change. I might be wrong but I don't recall any specific attacks made by her on individuals' choices to go on holiday, buy a car or have children.
Attenborough grown up enough for you?
He can think Greta is great all he wants, it won't change people's opinion of her! There isn't an easy answer here, but there are a huge amount of people who need a lot of convincing to make even the most basic lifestyle change, or to vote for people who are going to change the wider system, and it's not happening yet.
Maybe you are hanging around mostly with people who are making changes and voting for changes, but look around at all the SUVs, the poorly insulated new-builds, the endless disposable coffee cups, the throngs still buying tat at Christmas and queuing up for fast fashion, all the folk driving to work every day, refusing to consider it a meal unless it has meat in it, and you'll see we are a long way from any obvious societal change.
Equally there are people out there who just want to go around murdering people.
Not really equally, the murderers aren't a core part of the current economic set-up!
I don’t recall any specific attacks made by her on individuals’ choices to go on holiday, buy a car or have children.
I know. But that's what people are hearing. They are wrong, and they are selfish, but they need to be convinced, and right now they aren't, and they are voting conservative.
but there are a huge amount of people who need a lot of convincing to make even the most basic lifestyle change, or to vote for people who are going to change the wider system, and it’s not happening yet.
You aren't getting it are you? She isn't trying to stop you going to Marbella on holiday, she is trying to reach out to the world's governments to make them do something so reducing the effects of climate change can be brought about from the top down, not just because Mary from Dagenham has gone vegan.
She doesn't even claim to have the answers, she just wants to make such a fuss that she demands to be heard at the top table and just maybe real change may come about because of it.
You aren’t getting it are you? She isn’t trying to stop you going to Marbella on holiday
I'm not sure why you are trying to make out as if I am in opposition to you. I was just talking about the reactions to her that people I have spoken to recently have had. Not my opinions. Can't stress that enough.
Top down change doesn't happen unless it's demanded from the bottom up. I think that's how democracy works. That needs people en-masse to recognise the problem and vote and demand change. I think Greta puts off a lot of people. That was the start and end of my point.
Top down change doesn’t happen unless it’s demanded from the bottom up.
That is exactly what she is doing!!!
He can think Greta is great all he wants, it won’t change people’s opinion of her!
It does though. She is an important part of the picture. If enough people spread the word then eventually the right sort of person will get through to the people who need it. There are lots of grumpy reactionaries who just don't like being told what to do, but they only have so much energy for that, generally. We'll have young upstarts saying the same thing as old establishment figures and politicians of both sides, and singers, sportspeople, musicians, YouTubers etc etc. This is how the message gets across.
the poorly insulated new-builds
My relatively new build house is poorly constructed but it's pretty well insulated. Warmest house I've ever lived in.
she is challenging world leaders to do something about climate change
That may well be her intention but as cop26 showed world leaders are just ignoring her. Nothing real has actually changed because of her and her supporters
That may well be her intention but as cop26 showed world leaders are just ignoring her.
So what is her alternative? Stay at home and watch TikToks? At least she is trying and is continuing to make herself heard globally.
So what is her alternative?
try a different approach. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is at best foolish. I’ve no idea what that is, I’m not protesting
There’s been a COP meeting every year since 1995 apparently.
This one is the first that I was aware of. The media must be doing something right, finally and slowly.
That may well be her intention but as cop26 showed world leaders are just ignoring her. Nothing real has actually changed because of her and her supporters
It is changing, and it's changing because of people like Thunberg and thousands of others before. It's not really fast enough though, which is why people are still unhappy.