[Closed] Turbo petrols vs diesel

I had a 1.6 ecoboost focus estate 2013 and it was a really good car with a strong engine. MPG was mid 40's if I was careful and higher on long trips. Nice bit of boost for overtaking.

Now have a Focus ST estate with the 2.0 litre ecoboost.

Very good internal space arrangement. Flat boot opening and square sides so getting a bike in is easy.

Don't need to have the cam belt changed until 100,000 miles unlike VAG cars which a 13/14 plate will probably need doing.

I've got a 2012 2.0 TSI Golf (GTI) with DSG, I love it. Get approaching 40mpg out of it, occasional runs get up to 41-42 (actual, not indicated) if you're just following traffic. Would assume that the 1.4 would be more economical. I love the DSG, use it in automatic 99% of the time, use the paddles for overtaking or 'spirited' driving (so basically never as I live in the South East!).

Previously had 2 Golf GT TDIs, I'd not go back to a diesel now in the days of DPFs, if you're doing lots of 5 mile journeys it probably isn't ideal, even with a semi-frequent 300 mile journey.

Lots of short journeys does suggest petrol. Have a look at Leon FRs very well reviewed in the motoring press. DSG in VAG is a very good system to. I personally still prefer manuals but if you do a lot of stop start driving then the auto makes sense

I bought my daughter a Fiesta recently and we decided to go petrol rather than diesel. We ended up with one of the little 1litre turbo's (the 125bhp one) and it's highly impressive - it really does drive like a much bigger engine, even reminds me a bit of the 205 GTi I had back in the day. If that's replicated in the bigger Ford engines then they'll definitely be worth a look.

Fuel consumption is pretty good in the Fiesta although comprised a bit by being quite fun to drive, meaning heavier use of the right foot.

I test drove a 1.0l Focus Ecoboost and was [s]quite[/s] very impressed at how much fun it was to drive. Anecdotally I hear that the fuel consumption is woefully lower than quoted.

have a 999cc 3 cylinder turbo petrol engined wee Audi coming next week for the Boss. Will be intrigued to see how it goes in real life. Was very impressed with it on test drive, very nippy and still sounded fine at 70 on motorway...

I'd never buy a diesel car again given our usage which is pretty similar to your own. The last diesel car we had was when I was doing a 120 mile a day commute and since then we've had a succession of petrol cars of which nothing (touch wood!) has ever really gone wrong with them. That said, the only thing that ever went wrong with the diesel was an alternator which could happen on any car and and DMF was on its way out when we sold it.

Given your choices I'd get something with the DSG gearbox. They're great - I literally cannot see why you'd buy a manual car with stuff like DSG being so damn good. Who wants to keep changing gears all the time?! But with DSG theres the option for semi-manual shifts if you want it but realistically on mine I use it every now and then down shifting down whilst rolling up to a roundabout etc when I know I might just want to put my foot down to pull out etc.

I defend diesels on here but I'd go turbo petrol no problem. Don't discount the lower powered ones, as the turbo gives you lots of useful torque despite low power. My dad's 85bhp Golf drives really well.

And as above, DSGs are great. Ford powershift is the same idea, I've heard that early ones are grabby though. Not sure how true that is. Another benefit of DSGs is that it's way smoother for your passengers.

Question about DSG's, how much does the clutch cost?

Or is it effectively a lifetime part as the engine presumably can shift much smoother than a driver ever would?

Petrols feel very similar these days to diesels as they put a turbo on them.

Don't be fooled by any of the mpg figures though for whatever make real work will be much lower unless your drive like a very very old granny

Anecdotally I hear that the fuel consumption is woefully lower than quoted.

It might be possible to get close if you drove gently, but the cars are too much fun so you won't. Ours is still pretty decent given how hard it tends to get driven. Averages similar mpg to my wife's diesel SLK in fact.

OPs usage was made for one of the new smaller turbo petrols. They're not bad on the motorway either - yeah they seem small but they're absolutely fine on the motorway.

Wife's got a 1.2 TSI Ibiza and I've got a 2.0CR TDI Exeo estate.

When we're out as a family we take the Ibiza around town and it's brilliant, never feels strained or under engined even with 4 of us and even in stop-start if you look ahead and 'drive well' it'll beat 40mpg with ease.

My Exeo is crap in comparison around town, the loooong first gear makes it a ball ache in stop-start and it's 30mpg at best until it's warm and not much better until you're on a run.

Cruising at 70-80 it'll do 50Mpg and it's all very calm and quite on the motorway (28k family estate in more refined than 12k small hatch shocker) but the Ibiza will match the mpg and it's just a bit louder, it doesn't feel like a tiny car on the motorway - speed sensitive steering really helps.

We never see the official mpgs for either, but then we live in Cardiff everything it up or down hill - I spend a lot of time going back and forth Swansea it's up and down hill continually, I thought it was broke when I first had it, drive along that seemingly empty flat bit between Bath and Reading and it's much better.

I've also heard a rumour about burnt out piston rings(?) on the VAG's.

I started a thread somewhat recently about 2005-2008 era A4s, it was pointed out that the 2.0 TFSI suffered a piston ring problem for a few years, but got fixed around 2009 (?). Seems to be a reasonably well known thing. VAG were doing expensive fixes (part or full rebuild) and footing the bill at the time. Google turns up quite a bit on the topic.

The boy racer in me likes the idea of the 1.6 ecoboost, but head says that the 125bhp 1.0 litre should be fine.

I'm not expecting to get quoted MPG but the MPG / Tax on our current 1.6 FSI is so bad that even the higher powered engine will probably be at least as good, maybe even better.

don't know how the Ford's go but I drove 1.0TFSI and 1.4TFSI Audi Q2's back to back and preferred the smaller engine. The 1.4 was mental fast feeling mind you...

Thanks mrmonkfinger - if that issue is limited to the 2.0 TFSI only then I doubt that will affect me but thanks for the heads up.

I have a 2.0 tdci focus
My wife has the 1 litre fiesta ecoboost

Our fuelling economies are almost identical at 42mpg though admittedly mine is run on the motorway and hers tends to be the country roads

While the performance of the fiesta is okay you do need to push it for performance. On the other hand the focus just pulls especially in the useful 35 to 70 mph range

flashinthepan - Is that the 3 or 4 cylinder engine?

Driving a 1.0l ecoboost Fiesta, like a vicar wearing slippers, I managed to coax 50mpg out of it. It's supposed to do over 60mpg.

How short do people consider short drives to be? My commute is 13 miles of nearly continuous traffic and I'm planning on getting something that's more suitable for that than my current car.

The only requirements are that the vehicle has to be big enough for two dogs and comfortable enough for long journeys (up to 1500km).

ransos - Member

Driving a 1.0l ecoboost Fiesta, like a vicar wearing slippers, I managed to coax 50mpg out of it. It's supposed to do over 60mpg.

Driving a 1.0 ecoboost Focus normally I can get 49mpg on a long trip. Mine is the 125bhp 6 speed. My advice to the op would be to test drive both models. I did this and the higher spec, more powerful TDCI felt like dog shit after driving the petrol. I can't see me ever buying another diesel family car.

How short do people consider short drives to be? My commute is 13 miles of nearly continuous traffic and I'm planning on getting something that's more suitable for that than my current car.

The only requirements are that the vehicle has to be big enough for two dogs and comfortable enough for long journeys (up to 1500km).

Short is typically 2-3 miles 5-10 mins the sort of (I could walk this really) drives.

When it comes to diesel v petrol it's more complex - lots of people drive diesels on short trips (company car taxation plays a part) which doesn't suit them, mechanically it clogs them up with soot and whilst they're cold they're not very efficient and certainly not very environmentally friendly 13 miles of traffic is enough to warm up a diesel, but it's still not ideal for them - really they work best chugging away at a constant rate - I.E. motorways.

Your size requirement and need to make long journeys rules out EVs, but Petrol might be better - you shouldn't fall into the same trap as me - I drive 5 miles to work via school and 5 miles back again - sometimes it's weeks between long trips, sometimes it's 4 days a week, but mostly it's just the short commute - but I drive to France most summers, it's the only trip I really worry about, so when I chose my car I thought about it too much I think - I picked a car that was perfect for my once a year drive to the Alps - and about 99% for the rest of the year - really I should have got a smaller petrol and accepted a £20 cost penalty to get the kids to centrparcs or whatever.

@flashinthepan you are mashing the pedal to get 42mpg on a motorway run from a 2.0 tdi - or it has a fault!

Question about DSG's, how much does the clutch cost?

It's £900 on mine, which is a wet clutch, but they are as you say a 'lifetime' part. That's the whole clutch unit though. It is possible to get hold of just the friction material which is a set of loose rings, that's only £300 including £80 worth of oil for it.

The downer is that the oil needs replacing after something like 40k miles (not sure these days) which VW charge a lot for but indies much less.

Chopped our 2.0tdi yeti in for a 2,0tsi kodiaq last month. I' not go back to a diesel now. Its so much quieter, smoother and just generally better. Even with a gargantuan roof box, three bikes on a rack, my family's stupendous 150kg of "complete crap" onboard and plenty of 140kph+ autobahn cruising it still managed 32mpg over our 2500 mile summmer road trip.

It warms up instantly so winter plodding around will be much more comfortable and doesn't sound like a tractor while idling.

Petrol DSGs seem to be shipping with the dry clutch box now. But the auto handbrake feature should prevent wear from creep.

@ pieface - the 3 cylinder Ecoboost

@ molgrips - you're quite right. I can easily get 50mpg from the 2.0 tdci on the motorway if I use a light foot. I generally average 42mpg with some B roads and less economical driving thrown in

Petrols feel very similar these days to diesels as they put a turbo on them.

Not in my experience...
Not worse, jsut different.
We've a 2lTDI octavia, and a petrol 1.4 TSI yeti.

I need to 'remember' to drive the yeti differently - you can be quite lazy in the derv motor, but have to be 'on the ball' in the yeti. No option for DSG, but I like changing gears - I feel like a rally driver....

Once you spin the 1.4 up it really does pull - I just have to ignore the rev dial (I'f i'm in 'diesel mode' then I start to change at 2.5krpm...really you need to leave it climbing to get the acceleration power!)

DrP

Agreed DrP

My focus - you don't [i]need[/i] to work the box, just give it some beans

The fiesta on the other hand needs revving if you want it to go

Hence, presumably, the similarity in economy.

Chemistry init? You only get so much energy from each ml of fuel

DrP - Member

Petrols feel very similar these days to diesels as they put a turbo on them.

Not in my experience...
Not worse, jsut different.
We've a 2lTDI octavia, and a petrol 1.4 TSI yeti.

I need to 'remember' to drive the yeti differently - you can be quite lazy in the derv motor, but have to be 'on the ball' in the yeti. No option for DSG, but I like changing gears - I feel like a rally driver....

Once you spin the 1.4 up it really does pull - I just have to ignore the rev dial (I'f i'm in 'diesel mode' then I start to change at 2.5krpm...really you need to leave it climbing to get the acceleration power!)

DrP

FWIW your description of the 1.4 TSI sounds completely different from the ford 1.0 ecoboost and other small displacement turbo petrols I've driven. It sounds like you're describing the power delivery of a conventional non vgt turbo.

That's why the 1.4TSI twin charger in the Fabia VRS was so amazing - loads of pull from hardly any revs. Loved that car. Would have another.

Rachel

Petrol DSGs seem to be shipping with the dry clutch box now. But the auto handbrake feature should prevent wear from creep.

They always did. I don't think creep is a problem, is it? If you sit on the footbrake it de-clutches and only brings it in when you lift off the brake exactly as you would if you were driving. But it uses far less throttle than you could so it's probably better for wear.

Just for the OP

I can easily get 3 bikes (front wheels off) in the back of my focus estate with the seat split leaving room for two passengers and all our guff

Thanks for that, unsure whether the Focus Estate will give me enough extra room over what I've already got (Leon Hatchback), but for everyday use and the driveability over a Mondeo it probably will, the rest can always go in the roofbox when we go away.

Thought the 1.4/1.2tfsi got the 7sp dry clutch DSG, while the 2.0 t(f)si engines originally got the diesel's 6sp wet clutch box? Could be wrong. Anyway ours has the dry box and they explicitally exlude the clutch material from the warranty even though you have pretty much no control over how it is (ab)used. We went over stelvio 10 days ago and I could tell it was deliberatly slipping the clutches rather than shifting down to 1st on some corners. I also noted that in some traffic situations it'll creep like a torque converter-equipped traditional automatic, particulalry in stop/start traffic - there seems to be a difference between pulling to a STOP and it engaging the auto handbrake and pulling to a gentle stop (still a complete halt) where it doesn't.

We're in the market for a new car, specifically an estate. Most of the journey's will be the daily commute (unfortunately bike is not an option) of 5 miles each way.

In case it's not already been said, that probably won't be too good for a diesel with a DPF.

I'd stay away from the Fords. Ford have having a lot of problems in the states with the ecoBoost engines, which I'm sure will come out here fairly soon, but VAG? who trusts them anymore?

andy8442 - Member

I'd stay away from the Fords. Ford have having a lot of problems in the states with the ecoBoost engines

Go and take a look at Ford's American model range. IIRC they only offer the 1.0 ecoboost engine in one spec of Focus. They use the "ecoboost" nomenclature on all of their turbo charged petrol engines though. Not the same thing.

13 miles of traffic is enough to warm up a diesel

Had a 2006 Focus 2.0 TDCi for 6 years. Fully warmed up by 4 miles, maybe 5 in winter, on my daily commute, so a repeatable thing. Just saying.

We went over stelvio 10 days ago and I could tell it was deliberatly slipping the clutches rather than shifting down to 1st on some corners.

Yes, but VW aren't stupid - it slips the clutch (on mine at least) when the load is low.

but VAG? who trusts them anymore?

Trust them for what?

After they've been so badly burned, I'd expect them to be whiter than white.

Had a 2006 Focus 2.0 TDCi for 6 years. Fully warmed up by 4 miles, maybe 5 in winter,

Depends on the load. If I turn one way out of my street I get to go down hill to a 50mph dual carriageway that's slightly downhill then to a slow 30mph bit with queueing traffic. It won't be warmed up in 6 miles. If I turn the other way I am uphill onto a motorway where I boot it up to 70mph then pull up another hill, it's nearly warmed up inside three.

Why not look at a Mazda 2. They have great engines and the auto's are proper torque converter gearboxes. The VAG dsg low torque dry seven speed has had its problems. It's being replaced by a new 7 speed wet unit that should be a lot more reliable.

The only turbo petrol I've driven is the Mondeo 2.5T, that was lovely, felt like an 'on-boost' diesel at low revs and then just loads of smooth, seemingly endless power once it really got going. For the first few miles of the test drive I was thinking "oo,this is quite nice, feels nice and torquey like my diesel but sounds a bit more refined". Then I realised I'd not got it over about 2000rpm! Did a proper test, leaving it in 3rd for the 20-70mph sliproad drag race and was really impressed.

But that's not really what the OP is looking at, so...I know someone who's got a 1.2tsi DSG Leon estate. He's really happy with the car, and the engine specifically. He gets over 50mpg on motorway trips,as said above, the auto means a smooth ride, and it doesn't sound like a tractor.

Best reason to go for petrol? They aren't diesels. Hateful nasty crap things, I have to drive a TD Ford Focus for my work, lovely car and handles very very well but the engine is beyond crap.

I gladly use my other turbo petrol car and swallow the petrol costs, which are significant being as it does 18mpg round town....

The only turbo petrol I've driven is the Mondeo 2.5T, that was lovely, felt like an 'on-boost' diesel at low revs and then just loads of smooth, seemingly endless power once it really got going. For the first few miles of the test drive I was thinking "oo,this is quite nice, feels nice and torquey like my diesel but sounds a bit more refined". Then I realised I'd not got it over about 2000rpm! Did a proper test, leaving it in 3rd for the 20-70mph sliproad drag race and was really impressed.

But that's not really what the OP is looking at, so..

😆

I'm intrigued by Ford 2.5Ts now though.

🙂

5 Mile commute? I'd go for petrol.

A lot of diesel owners are reporting Diesel Particulate Filter (DPF) problems once their cars have been serviced. I'm told that recent software updates undo the 'emission cheat mechanism', that Bosch have apparently engineered into their ECUs - supplied to numerous makes and models, but predominantly German/ VAG.

Short commutes could well lead to DPF problems.

I've recently bought a car; the dealer was at pains to understand my typical journey pattern and it was quite obvious they didn't want to sell me a diesel if I was going to be doing short journeys - although they were very cagey on this.

I'm sure most manufacturers will be caught out on this, VW are just the first.

We chopped in our aged Ibiza FR Tdi for a Fiesta 1.6 Ecoboost ST3, much better car to drive and similar economy on the 5 mile each way commute, a hair less on a long run but close. Completely terrible economy when driving like pants are on fire, but so much fun, who cares?

I'm intrigued by Ford 2.5Ts now though.

It's the old Volvo T5 engine, which was 'quite good' even when mounted in two tons of scandinavian beige estate!

As noted above, it's more 'boost', considerably less 'eco'.

[img] [/img]

Inbred456 speaks sense.

I'm in the process of changing from DERV to petrol, I do approx 18k miles per year, mostly on motorways, and recon that a petrol car will cost me about £20 a month more in fuel (based on Honest John's real mpg figures).

Having test driven the Golf, Focus, Leon, V40 and a Mazda 3 I decided to get a Mazda 3 2.0 petrol, no turbo, no intercooler.

The insurance and VED are £50 a year less each than my current car (2010 Skoda Superb, 2.0d DSG).

Pimpmaster Jazz - Member

I'm intrigued by Ford 2.5Ts now though.

The new 3.5 is where it's at. 450bhp 510 lb-ft.

Murica.

thisisnotaspoon - Member
It's the old Volvo T5 engine, which was 'quite good' even when mounted in two tons of scandinavian beige estate!

Actually your about 1/2 Tonne out it was only 1500kg ish with the present Golf Estate only just over 100kg lighter!!

The main thing with turbo petrol engines is that they can easily match horsepower, but they lack torques, and often they have only had a 5-speed box, so while a diesel might be tootling along at around 2000rpm in top, a petrol is likely to be around 3000rpm, now that 6-speed boxes are starting to become more common, cruising rpm is dropping and economy improving. I've lost track of the number of petrol cars I've driven, and I'm doing 75-80* in top on a motorway, and looked at the tacho and though "why the **** hasn't this got another gear! It's running at least 1000rpm higher than a diesel!"
*Indicated, 73-76 GPS. 😛

I've just gone from turbo diesel golf estate - nice bit of motorway grunt - to a Mini Cooper S 😆

Bristol is about to start making it much harder for diesels to get about (quite rightly so) so I thought I'd get something less dirty.

Both will depreciate rapidly in next five years. Motoring is emerging from the dinosaur age.

Caveat emptor (with old technology)

Petrol. No DPF and less likely to have a dual mass flywheel. Win-win

Don't need to have the cam belt changed until 100,000 miles unlike VAG cars which a 13/14 plate will probably need doing.

so while a diesel might be tootling along at around 2000rpm in top, a petrol is likely to be around 3000rpm, now that 6-speed boxes are starting to become more common, cruising rpm is dropping and economy improving. I've lost track of the number of petrol cars I've driven, and I'm doing 75-80* in top on a motorway, and looked at the tacho and though "why the **** hasn't this got another gear! It's running at least 1000rpm higher than a diesel!"

I'm intrigued by Ford 2.5Ts now though.

They used to be fitted to the Focus ST range also. 5 cylinders and 2.5 litres of turbo charged loveliness!

Back to the OP's question - I'd recommend looking at a Leon 1.4 EcoTSI with the 7sp DSG in FR Spec.

I'm intrigued by Ford 2.5Ts now though.
They used to be fitted to the Focus ST range also. 5 cylinders and 2.5 litres of turbo charged loveliness!

I think also in the Volvo V40 R design, which is Focus based.

I was driving a Ford petrol in Canada recently. 6.8 litre V10. Not especially eco...

The main thing with turbo petrol engines is that they can easily match horsepower, but they lack torque

The modern 1l turbo petrol engines have a surprising amount of torque. My daughters 1L 125bhp fiesta feels like it has a much bigger engine, especially at lower revs.

I test drove a Dacia Lodgy TCE 115 (same engine as the Renault Megane) and turbo diesel 110. I never seriously considered the diesel for public health reasons but was intrigued by how they drove back to back. The petrol pulls strongly from 2000rpm and goes better from then to when you deem it time to change up. The petrol is smoother, quieter and will pull smoothly from very low revs if you are easy on the gas.

Both petrol and diesel are gutless at low revs, noisy, smelly, filthy, unrefined and have irritating transmissions. Test drive an electric car and see for yourself.

Test drive an electric car and see for yourself.

Sadly not practical for my circumstances yet.

Welll the diesel estate goes in next week to be replaced by a petrol turbo. It's a 9speed auto and so will probably be a shade less economical than the 7speed diesel it's replacing. The new one has plenty of torque over lots more revs than the diesel so with the 9spds it's goes well.

That will probably be my last diesel after 25yrs of driving them. I suspect that it will be hybrids or pure battery powered from now on

After much scepticism I've had a skoda superb 1.4tsi for a few years now. Smooth and pulls well, never struggles even loaded. Think it averages about 35 mpg with 50.50 town and country driving.

What do you need torque on a 5 mile commute for? A turbo petrol engines car will produce ample torque for that. My wife's 1 series petrol 1.6turbo is a great car for local run around and commuting duties and even long motorway trips and not lacking in torque or power in any way. Far better than a diesel for those duties. And with the 8 speed auto box chugs along at motorway speeds in the low 1000's of rpm. Economy is around the high 30's low 40's but I can't say we're in any way driving him the most economical way possible. Like any car, even diesels, he mpg you achieve has more to do with how you drive the car.

So for my two penneth worth get a petrol turbo. Quieter, smoother, more refined, nicer torque delivery and more useable spread of power across the rev range than a diesel. Also less complicated and cleaner. Also won't chew through front tyres (assuming fwd), and cheaper to buy and run for a good 40 k miles or so at least, or wherever trade off is these days between cheaper up front costs vs. Fuel economy.

I'll be getting shot of my 2.0 Tdi Yeti 4x4 in October. It's been fine up until the emission fix was done this summer. I managed to put it off for over a year nearly until its annual service. Notably more re-gens and a lack of torque at low rpm. I'm thinking of buying second hand again. Mazda 6 2.5 Sport petrol estate is on the horizon. Old school but lovely to drive and fairly reliable. 10k a year so fuel costs shouldn't be to high. The Yeti averages about 41 mpg.

I'm a company car driver and on his occasion I went diesel. Imagine it'll be my last one though - fully expect to be getting a hybrid petrol or an ev next time (about 3.5 years away).

I do enough long trips frequently enough and the company car tax currently on pure petrol was bad enough to justify the diesel for now. Couldn't get a decent hybrid on my budget.

My wife does similar trips / mileage to the op with a commute through stop-start traffic so she has a petrol car and when she changes will be getting another petrol car I expect. Currently in a not very economical Mini Countryman Cooper s - think we'll be looking at one of these smaller engines turbo petrols to replace it.

For me (and now the wife) an automatic gearbox is high on the list. My car has the 8 speed zf box with paddles and it's a game changer for me. Used to love a manual but on long trips and in stop start traffic I love the auto. Generally leave it in Drive or sport but play with the paddles occasionally.

Just to add last year I had a Citroen ds4 as a hire car and it had a 1.2 turbo petrol engine with about 140bhp. It was really good actually. Quiet but carried a surprisingly big stick when you put your foot down.

wobbliscott - Member

What do you need torque on a 5 mile commute for? A turbo petrol engines car will produce ample torque for that.

He's asking about a small displacement petrol engine in a bigger car. Conventional logic is that you need a big diesel to have a pleasant driving experience.

We have a 1.0l ecoboost 125hp in our cmax (2014)

We've had it a year, no reliability issues at all.

It is surprisingly nippy, even in a big-ish car. On a test drive that'll almost certainly be your impression.

However I find it occasionally annoying. It is still underpowered as you would expect for a 1.0, but only in certain situations, like pulling away quickly or overtaking.

Feels like there's a very narrow margin between too much torque, and nearly stalling the engine. Even after a year I can't get used to it.

Mpg is pretty poor around town. Even driving really carefully and frugally I can't get more than high 30s. 'Normal' driving with the A/C on its around 35. On the motorway I reckon I'd get 50mpg or so if I stuck to 65mph.

Overall I'm still happy with the car but the engine is the weakness, if these things bother you. Hopefully it'll continue to be reliable.

He's asking about a small displacement petrol engine in a bigger car. Conventional logic is that you need a big diesel to have a pleasant driving experience.

Yes, but depends on how fast you want to accelerate. Big diesels give you torque low down which means people generally use it and get used to it, but it's not needed. Anyway it's a question of hearing. Small turbo petrol engines will be low gear d to give you poky acceleration. My mates 1.0 Ltr ecoboost b-max (so not a small car) feels pretty poky on acceleration even with two burly bikers, a couple of burly bikes and a weekends worth of bike gear stuffed in it.

I have no particular loyalty to petrol, diesel, electric or even chip fat or Lpg. I've used it all, except electric, and that'll likely change soon. But in my mind it's the bizarre pricing of fuel that's the issue. You've got petrol and diesel being priced and therefore compared by volume, despite diesel being 15% more energy dense by volume. You've got electric being viewed as the efficient saviour of humanity, yet if it were priced (taxed) comparably to other fuels it would be just be a less convenient, massively less energy dense white elephant. The biofuel boom a few years ago only succeeded in putting some food crop prices up as there's a finite capacity to grow oily crops.

Noes the time to go electric, if you can. As soon as the government coffers start to take the hit from widespread uptake of electric transport, they'll have no choice but to tax it similarly. S'maths, innit?

Much of the electricity will be free, collected on peoples roofs from the orange ball in the sky.

Its more likely the tax will come from miles travelled which seems fair.

wobbliscott - Member

He's asking about a small displacement petrol engine in a bigger car. Conventional logic is that you need a big diesel to have a pleasant driving experience.

Yes, but depends on how fast you want to accelerate. Big diesels give you torque low down which means people generally use it and get used to it, but it's not needed. Anyway it's a question of hearing.

It's not necessarily about how fast you want to accelerate (and that's very subjective anyway), it's about in gear acceleration and usable power curves that compliment the size, weight and intended purpose of the car.

Small turbo petrol engines will be low gear d to give you poky acceleration. My mates 1.0 Ltr ecoboost b-max (so not a small car) feels pretty poky on acceleration even with two burly bikers, a couple of burly bikes and a weekends worth of bike gear stuffed in it.

It's not the gearing it's the power delivery. Your mate's 1.0 ecoboost has a tiny turbo that spins up from very low revs and delivers 90% of peak torque below 2000 rpm much like a diesel.

You've got electric being viewed as the efficient saviour of humanity, yet if it were priced (taxed) comparably to other fuels it would be just be a less convenient, massively less energy dense white elephant.

How many times a year would you have to do anything more than plug in your car on arriving home?

[url= https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/514912/road-use-statistics.pdf ]The average trip length is just 7 miles.[/url]

Infrastructure is in its infancy but we crossed France to Germany with enough charge points.

If the current system were electric based and someone suggested having tankers full of explosive liquids delivering petrol stations with huge tanks of explosive liquids and then having 60l of explosive liquid in every car how would people react?

how would people react?

Explosively? 😉

How many times a year would you have to do anything more than plug in your car on arriving home?

There's no incentive to drive a far more expensive and less versatile vehicle such as two-seater Mini. Or a Tesla (which is a lot more practical), they do though. Not everyone wants to drive a Dacia Lodgy TCE (if you can think of a more cost efficient and versatile car insert that here), they buy different vehicles for different reasons and the cost per km is way down their list and the tax they pay even lower. It's mainly about image and percieved quality of experience as people's comments on the relative merits of petrol and diesel engines on this thread demonstrate.

I like the invisible silent hand pushing me forward (and holding me back with energy recovery when I brake) sensation from an electric motor and that's as much a part of the deal as zero local emissions or the cost per km.

I like the invisible silent hand pushing me forward (and holding me back with energy recovery when I brake) sensation from an electric motor

This makes NOW the best time to own an electric car, before everyone has got one and they can start ratcheting up the tax.

I've just checked my electricity bill, I'm paying top rate VAT and some local taxes too.

The Government (UK, French, etc) cannot afford to lose the tax revenues from motoring fuels, so if we all switch to electric they will have to charge us somehow. Back of the envelope we pay £1000 pa on fuel tax/duty - so that will be the road tax charge or some other mechanism of taxation. (Wiki says UK motorists pay £38bn pa in road tax and fuel duty/vat - that number sill need to keep rising to pay for Government spending)

Some kind of hike in electricity prices then? Perhaps it's time to invest in a Tesla solar roof and powerwalls before "the man" starts getting his.