[Closed] Triple Murderer feels Teary and Upset

mtbfix - Member

bencooper ftw. Prison should be about rehabilitation, not punishment.

I disagree. For me the order of priority is:

1. Get dangerous / criminal people out of circulation to protect the law abiding majority.

2. Punish the offenders (and be seen to be punishing the offenders) - for the sake of victims and to discourage other from committing crimes (policing by consent to a certain extent).

3. Rehabilitation - but with the focus firmly on reducing the risk to the law abiding majority on release. If the offender has any time left on their sentence after they have been rehabilitated in a social sense, then they can study for an A-Level in Marine Biology or whatever.

Okay, stepping away from keyboard warrior mode for a minute, I don't see how euthanizing a prisoner or two will have the slightest impact on human overpopulation.

That issue now dealt with, the issue in hand is that a prisoner is claiming that solitary confinement is in contravention of their human rights. If Dennehy were given free and unrestricted access to fellow inmates or jail staff, then I'm sure that the resulting inquiry would find that the human rights of staff & prisoners plural protecting them from being stabbed and mutilated by a sociopath may well take precedence.

It smells to me like some hotshot lawyer is seeking a nice fee and has agreed to take this case on out of notoriety, in which case the Home Secretary will treat it with contempt and throw it out.

Regardless of whether Dennehy has access to a gym, a pool, a playstation or a taxpayer funded giant beanbag or not, she is no longer a danger to the public whilst she is incarcerated. Seems like a non-story to me.

I disagree. For me the order of priority is:

1. Get dangerous / criminal people out of circulation to protect the law abiding majority.

2. Punish the offenders (and be seen to be punishing the offenders) - for the sake of victims and to discourage other from committing crimes (policing by consent to a certain extent).

Countries that practice punitive punishment are those that tend to do things like stone women to death in front of baying crowds, restorative justice has been the western norm for a long long time.

Don't accuse me of reducto ad absurdism either, there is a Thin Red Line between civilization and savagery - that huamity has proven time and time again.

1 and 3 are the only legitimate reasons for imprisonment, 2 is not - as it simply legitimizes the idea of revenge in society. When people see the state committing acts of revenge, they are more prone to carrying out acts of revenge themselves as well.

Odd. No one thinks about the people who are inside prison for not paying a TV licence fine/Council tax/Bedroom tax or other bills, sometimes out of choice or not being able to pay. What about those who just had a really bad lawyer and waiting for their appeal. What about those who are innocent, or getting shafted by dishonest police (does happen

Before the 'Flaming torches' get lit, and the gallows built, think about all those who had to suffer becuase justice. depends on luck

Remember the woman who were put inside prison and abused by staff and prisoners becuause they were supposed to have shaken their baby to death. The doctor who testified was found to be a fame hungry idiot and further testing (years down the line) proved the children had a medical problems.

(sorry for the spelling and what not. I'm pooped)

They need a way of fast-tracking these kind of vexatious cases so lawyers can't milk a year's worth of legal aid out of it.

She may be better off asking for a transfer to Broadmoor. Can't remember the figures but was very surprised at the number that are released each year.

Prison should be about rehabilitation, not punishment.

Would you feel the same way if (for example) a drunk driver mowed down your family. They'd most probably be disgusted with themselves, vow never to get behind the wheel of a car again etc etc...What use would sending them to prison be?

anyways, back on topic and its not as if shes being locked away in a hole in the ground and p1ssing in a bucket now is it...

Don't accuse me of reducto ad absurdism either,

I didn't - that wasn't to do with your comment.

2 is not - as it simply legitimizes the idea of revenge in society

Not necessarily - there has to be a sanction for committing criminal acts and it has to be seen to be proportionate, but there is still an element of punishment to it. It is also important that justice is seen to be done. Not by a baying mob, just by society as a whole.

No doubt you will now go off along a line of "the nazis massacred whole villages 'pour decourager les autres' - and that is where your argument logically leads".

But it doesn't have to.

You seem to specialise in subjecting views you don't like to some kind of secondary school 'logical progression' to arrive at an absurd (and rightly attackable) 'logical conclusion'.

Combine this with ignoring such a process for your own views and you create a polarisation which isn't really there.

Not particularly clever, but it does suck a lot of people in.

"Is that what you want? Cos that's what'll happen".

[img] [/img]

Are you actually discussing the right issues?

It's not a case of punishment vs rehabilitation.

From reading the article, it seems she was kept isolated from other prisoners. Prison says it was justified due to a planned breakout attempt that involved cutting off someones finger. She claims this was unjust, and caused unnecessary suffering.

I don't think the prison is arguing that she was kept isolated as punishment.

This.

Sociopaths like to mess with the system, it's a form of exerting control which would be otherwise difficult to do when in prison. Dennehy fits the profile of a sociopath, she plead guilty to the surprise of her own defence team, probably because it was easier to do so than to provide explanation for her actions. A sociopath will do this as a way of tormenting the victims' families and fighting the system.

Leroy Bellfield - the killer of Milly Dowler didn't bother turning up for his own sentencing, he was well aware that Milly's family and the legal system required closure, but he wanted to remain in control of something.

Perhaps the very worst thing that a sociopath can possibly face is a loss of control and resulting irrelevence...locking them away in Broadmoor or wherever where they cannot torment people is probably perceived as a worse punishment by the likes of Dennehy and Bellfield than simply executing them.

PJM1974 has hit a nail very squarely on the head.

The likes of Dennehy will always crave a way to remain 'relevant'. Look at what has happened with Brady always keeping the location of some of his victims secret. For him it means that he feels he still has some power over someone.

It is right that we recognise when we are being 'played'.

Are there any actual prison staff on here apart from me? (reading this thread with interest)

I imagine partly why she's kept in solitary for the moment is because of riskto other inmates and guards. Any prison staff on STW comment on procedure/isolation?

Prison staff dress up in full riot gear with sheilds and helmet, storm her cell and drag her off to the block where she is left to spit and scream to her hearts content. Forgot to mention they pin her to the floor leaving one the room one at a time, she can't get up straight away as her legs and arms will most likely be dead from the weight of all the staff.

I wish there was far more available to rehabilitate prisoners. But some will almost certainly never be released, and therein lies the problem.

However, she is not being kept in solitary as a punishment as far as I have read - doesn't seem to have been an attack by or on her. An Assessment has said that that is the safest place to keep her for everybody's sake. Presumably when they are satisfied she is able to move into regular confinement they will do it.

Agree that this case is a drain on public time and funds, and an attention/power trip for her

chewkw - Member
I am talking about democracy where people can vote to have a referendum (whatever you call it) on death penalty, then another vote to vote to see if death penalty should be brought back

The last thing this country needs to be doing is pandering to the sort of ****s who democratically voted the Tories in.

Sometimes we need protecting from ourselves.

You lot are wrong ... 😈

We need to start an online petition in order to start the online petition to debate death penalty.

An online petition to start the online petition to debate and an online petition to rule them all!

Ya, online petition ... the democracy! 😛

Imagine if majority vote for the return of death penalty ... 😆

Ya, democracy! Freedommmmm!

Freedom comes from the barrel of the gun! Ya! 😆

edit:

teethgrinder - Member

chewkw - Member
I am talking about democracy where people can vote to have a referendum (whatever you call it) on death penalty, then another vote to vote to see if death penalty should be brought back

The last thing this country needs to be doing is pandering to the sort of **** who democratically voted the Tories in.

Sometimes we need protecting from ourselves.

I ain't Tories boy or commies Labour and neither am I a LimpDem or Green Utopian.

Funny thing is that I voted all of them in the past!

I feel dirty for voting them lot ...

What a disgrace. 😆

edit edit: My mission now is to keep the lefties out as long as possible ... bloody communists are trying to free ride my blood and sweat! (this is a temporal effect by the way as I will choose next target once the lefties are put in their place ... after two generations at least) 😈

@chewkw...are you old enough to be voting? I always had you down at about fourteen years old....funny old world...

Prison staff dress up in [s]full riot[/s] protective equipment with sheilds and helmet, [s]storm her cell[/s] enter her cell while being videod and [s]drag[/s] take her under restraint to the block where she is left to spit and scream to her hearts content. Forgot to mention they pin her to the floor leaving one the room one at a time, she can't get up straight away as her legs and arms will most likely be dead from the weight of all (3) staff.

I'll explain a full 'relocation' if you want. It's all planned & recorded.

Not particularly clever

It is when I can back up my argument with empirical analysis - public health research seems to indicate that the death penalty leads to higher murder rates. It has been theorised that this is in part due to the the psychological effect or legitimising violence that state sanctioned violence has. Also, I would argue that the climate produced by a justice system that encourages revenge acts as a barrier to recovery for individual victims and society as a whole. Maybe listen to what the shrinks are saying?

edenvalleyboy - Member
@chewkw...are you old enough to be voting? I always had you down at about fourteen years old....funny old world...

It is when I can back up my argument with empirical analysis - public health research seems to indicate that the death penalty leads to higher murder rates.

Where ?

I'll see if I can dig it up when I'm at work - a while back I found a decent paper or two that controlled for all sorts of sociological issues in the States on pubmed or possibly some other journal database.

I can't remember whether it was a statistically significant rise though - however it definitely had no deterrent effect.

Tom_W1987 - Member

I'll see if I can dig it up when I'm at work - a while back I found a decent paper or two that controlled for all sorts of sociological issues in the States on pubmed or possibly some other journal database.

I can't remember whether it was a statistically significant rise though - however it definitely had no deterrent effect.

Really! Really! 😆

I'll see if I can dig it up when I'm at work - a while back I found a decent paper or two that controlled for all sorts of sociological issues in the States on pubmed or possibly some other journal database

I suspected you were referring to the US, try some research for the UK pre 1965, also actually compare the actual amount of hangings carried out against the murders committed and convicted, why people continually refer to the US on this debate is bizarre.

It is when I can back up my argument with empirical analysis - public health research [u]seems[/u] to indicate that the death penalty leads to higher murder rates. It has been [u]theorised[/u] that this is in part due to the the psychological effect or legitimising violence that state sanctioned violence has.

With added emphasis.

I didn't mention the death penalty, though. Or any violence for that matter. Why are you talking about death penalties and violence rather than imprisonment?

Sorry, but you still need to try harder. I know it is easier to imagine and portray anyone who disagrees with you as a raving fascist loony, but immediately polarising the argument in this way doesn't smack of much more than Daily Mail journalism (in reverse - obviously).

[quote=mrsfry ]Odd. No one thinks about the people who are inside prison for not paying a TV licence fine/Council tax/Bedroom tax or other bills, sometimes out of choice or not being able to pay. What about those who just had a really bad lawyer and waiting for their appeal. What about those who are innocent, or getting shafted by dishonest police (does happen

It appears those people are exactly who are being thought of by keeping Dennehy segregated from them.

Dennehy is on a whole life sentence.

I suspected you were referring to the US, try some research for the UK pre 1965, also actually compare the actual amount of hangings carried out against the murders committed and convicted, why people continually refer to the US on this debate is bizarre.

Because the states is a modern country with varying laws from state to state meaning that you can undertake a semi rigorous analysis of punishment and deterrence

Looking at a graph for an entire country and saying....ooooh look murder rates have gone up since 1965......is not.

With added emphasis.

I didn't mention the death penalty, though. Or any violence for that matter. Why are you talking about death penalties and violence rather than imprisonment?

Because, for example, increased prison sentences for say...assault...do not deter criminals either. The rate of conviction does however, deter offenders. 😆 But I'd mentioned the death penalty as it had already come up, also I'd argue that locking people up just for the sake of vengeance is violence.

Now Breivik is at it[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35807961 ]Norway killer Anders Breivik sues over human rights
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35807961 [/url]

Ha, was just about to post that. Poorly decorated cell? NO MOISTURISER? Those monsters!

I wonder who gains from such legal challenges and actions..

Who usually gains from legal action?

I wonder who gains from such legal challenges and actions..

Lawyers. And sociopaths who are driven to feel as though they are in control of something.

However, for each sociopath who delights in bucking the system there are innumerable inmates who've a genuine grievance which needs to be addressed. Any penal system must have it's checks and balances, if we are to ensure that abuses of power do not take place.

increased prison sentences for say...assault...do not deter criminals either.

maybe that is because conditions are too tolerable inside ?

maybe that is because conditions are too tolerable inside ?

Punishment doesn't mean sitting inside four walls in luxury playing CoD on a PlayStation.

Have you applied for a job recently? You'll know about having to provide details of any criminal convictions...a conviction for Drink Driving invariably means unaffordable insurance after a ban has been served.

On the flipside, the system must do all it can to support and incentivise inmates to better themselves whilst in prison. Surely you'd rather they became productive members of society upon release, rather than reverting to criminal activity?

Forget length of sentences.

You need to go back to the source of problems. From birth, through childhood. That's where you get adults who just never stood a chance in life.

Sadly you'll ALWAYS have these and those that go onto offend even in a eutopian society. So it's pointless making sentances draconianly longer. The only purpose longer sentances give been fit is keeping habitual/serial offenders away from being 'operational' on the street.

You can change the odd child's direction (my community bobby sorted me out sharpish) of offending but once they start a routine of drugs within a culture of no respect for the law or community then it becomes managing them for the rest of their lives. Longer sentances arent the answer.

All IMO of course 🙂

maybe that is because conditions are too tolerable inside ?

It's a wonder people aren't queuing up to do time.

Those hatton-heist robbers weren't daft.

plan A) get away with it.

plan B) save their families a fortune on nursing-home fees...

You can change the odd child's direction (my community bobby sorted me out sharpish) of offending but once they start a routine of drugs within a culture of no respect for the law or community then it becomes managing them for the rest of their lives. Longer sentances arent the answer.

Prison *is* a way of managing people for the rest of their lives, thus ensuring they don't re-offend, or if they do it's not against the general public.

The case we're discussing is *exactly* the kind of case where someone will always re-offend given the chance, but by keeping her inside she is limited to failed plots to cut fingers off prison guards rather than successfully killing random dog walkers.

If there was ever a case where a long sentence was a very good solution this is it.

maybe that is because conditions are too tolerable inside ?

This is the states we are talking about, the country that came up with supermax prisons and Guantanimo Bay.