[Closed] Transgender children at school...

What about this one then?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/stefonknee-wolschtt-transgender-father-leaves-family-in-toronto-to-start-new-life-as-a-six-year-old-a6769051.html

5plusn8 - Member
What about this one then?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/stefonknee-wolschtt-transgender-father-leaves-family-in-toronto-to-start-new-life-as-a-six-year-old-a6769051.html

boriselbrus - don't start coming in here and spouting all that stuff. No-one said you could steal all the limelight 😉

Rachel

I find it almost impossible to understand how trans or gender fluid people must feel. That's not to say I doubt them or their feelings are any less valid but I think maybe it's one of those things you can't really understand if you haven't experienced it yourself. Perhaps that's part of the problem with the dinosaurs like these parents - people are afraid of what they don't understand.

Having said that, I can't for the life of me understand why any rational, sane individual would give the slightest shit what someone else wants to do with THEIR LIFE. Why not just let them get on with it?

There is some conjecture on this thread about the six year old in question and if they are too young to know. That may or may not be correct (I genuinely don't know) but surely the most important thing is that the kid is happy. If that means that right now they're happy wearing a dress then fine, maybe in a year or two they decide it's not for them, maybe they decide they are a girl. Quite honestly, aside from the child and their family it's no-one else's business. Yours and my only responsibly as members of the human race is to be at least respectful of their feelings.

[quote=5plusn8 ]I mean you may have considered playing with girls toys and wearing dresses as a small child and just got redirected by your parents. It might not have seemed worth fighting over at age 3 so maybe you brushed it off and followed the herd. Can you remember back that far?

God no - can't even really remember anything much before I was about 10. But then that may be because there wasn't much to remember - given I don't have any issues with gender identity now I doubt I had any then (not if I was so easily redirected), and TBH I'm not sure wanting to play with "girls" toys* or wear dresses is a gender issue at that age anyway, it's just kids playing with no concept of gender. boriselbrus's experience was clearly considerably different to mine.

*WTF is a "girls toy" or a "boys toy" for a 3yo anyway? Right there we have part of the issue.

Two things really upset me listening to that interview this morning.

1 - The couple said several times that they didn't mind people with gender issues, but it should be private, away from public, I forget the wording but they basically meant "Hide it away, shove where no-one can see, where we don't have to face it, or think about it... just airbrush it away please." Which I would imagine is about the most dangerous thing any young person, or older person for that matter, can hear while dealing with questions about their identity.

2 - The second was that there is a young person somewhere who has been handling something complicated, pretty well it would seem, and everyone around them were dealing with in the way they should, no fuss, acceptance etc. Then this insular attention seeking couple kick up such a fuss and go and every media outlet that will take them. I doubt that 6 year will be fully hidden from this, it probably isn't possible, and there's a chance all the past efforts will be undone. Just cos he was being himself/herself.

*WTF is a "girls toy" or a "boys toy" for a 3yo anyway? Right there we have part of the issue.

Well put unklehomerd

Why don't men wear dresses anyway?

Why don't men wear dresses anyway?

They call them Kilts, well that's a skirt.

Tunics are another example.

Why don't men wear dresses anyway?

Because of horse riding, custom and practice came after

Why don't men wear dresses anyway?

Even the native men of Papua New Guinea don't wear skirts for practical reasons. It's just impractical coz you cannot let your genitals swing and slap on your thighs all the time when you run, walk etc. 🙄

You can wear underpants under a dress can't you?

Why don't men wear dresses anyway?

molgrips - Member
You can wear underpants under a dress can't you?

Yes, you can 😆

I was referring to the reasons that man generally need to wear something to prevent them catching "cold". 😆

It used to be common for all boys to wear dresses up to their Breeching age (typically between 2 and 8):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeching_(boys)

You can wear underpants under a dress can't you?

Not in Scotland 😀

"Suuuuuuwing loooow sweat charrrriot.."

molgrips - Member

Why don't men wear dresses anyway?

some do.

Let's not ignore the wider issue, should gender identity determine gender?

enfht - Member
Let's not ignore the wider issue, should gender identity determine gender?

I think I might be a lesbian coz I love women ... 😆

I reckon I'd look awesome in a dress; my kids say I've got Taylor Swift's legs.

Men are not allowed to wear dresses at my work.

Let's not ignore the wider issue, should gender identity determine gender?

You mean "Should we force people to conform to our ideas about gender identity or just learn to accept that people are different?"

Put me down for the latter please.

Men are not allowed to wear dresses at my work.

Women can't wear them at my work.

They can at mine.

No GrahamS, the points you miss are the wider implications raised in the video that you didn't watch. I'd rate you 5 on the Outraged Scale.

[quote=enfht ]No GrahamS, the points you miss are the wider implications raised in the video that you didn't watch. I'd rate you 5 on the Outraged Scale.

The wider implications raised through a combination of strawman and slippery slope arguments?

"Should we force people to conform to our ideas about gender identity or just learn to accept that people are different" is the only visible strawman.

You're right I didn't watch it. I've watched enough alt-right [i]"X destroys/humiliates/owns feminist/liberal/SJW Y"[/i] videos to know the basic formula. They are all over YouTube.

I'd rate you 5 on the Outraged Scale.

No idea what the scale goes up to. But I self-identify as a 3.7 😆

Mentioning alt-right has just increased your score.

"X humiliates Y" is a very common alt-right meme.

So is being dismissive of gender politics and suggesting that liberals are outraged or triggered.

Nothing at all to do with being dismissive. Enlightened liberals are far too quick to shout ad hominem so please allow others to mock their fragility in the face of reason and logic. 😆

Enlightened liberals are far too quick to shout ad hominem

Says the person that literally just accused me of being outraged 🙄

So let's hear your take them (not a videos): should we allow people to define their own gender identity?

Watched the video...is bollocks.

Transgender children? To quote Renton... What the **** are you boys on? 😆

Watched the video...is bollocks.

But you have now contributed to its view count and pushed it up the YouTube rankings. Which seems to be the point of these trolling videos.

But you have now contributed to its view count and pushed it up the YouTube rankings. Which seems to be the point of these trolling videos.

Oh my god...youtube rankings...What have I done???

Watched it, shite argument. It's got nothing to do with protecting transgender children and dumbs it down to a white guy in a suit basically yelling 'if I want to play women's hockey then no one can stop me" because it's as simple as just saying 'I'm a women'

As if. It completely ignores the level of emotional turmoil, stress, self doubt, isolation and all the other emotions that people go through when they try to resolve their sexual orientation or gender. Not to mention the bullying and abuse that takes place.

This is on a level with suggesting homosexuality can be cured.

Oh my god...youtube rankings...What have I done???

😆

That's they way the propaganda game is played these days though. YouTube rankings, social media shares, memes.

The conservative right is very keen to keep the liberal left talking about gender issues (Bannon said as much himself) because they know it pushes them further away from more conservative voters and gives the impression that the left are more concerned about bathrooms than jobs.

Fortunately there is a generation growing up that aren't hung up on stereotypes and bigotry of Christianity.

Latest polls show the UK at least is becoming ever more secular, bitter old dinosaurs like Farage, bannon, trump Murdoch and the people they appeal to are literally a dying breed.

Of course, as with Brexit they can still lash out and try and drag us back to an imagined past they better understood.

aracer - Member
WTF is a "girls toy" or a "boys toy" for a 3yo anyway? Right there we have part of the issue.

Posting to say this too ^

I think people are conflating "children challenging our ridiculous gender stereotypes", with people being transgender. Getting upset that a little boy wants to wear a dress to school is, frankly, idiotic..... as is labeling that boy as transgender.

Why do we insist that children of different genders play with different toys, play different games, dress differently, have different haircuts etc etc? At the risk of stating the bleeding obvious: it seems to me that most gender identity issues are being driven by us anyway.

When I was at school in the 90s the (relatively strict) school had to change it's dress code to allow girls to wear trousers. I can remember not understanding what the hell all the fuss was about.

enfht - Member

Let's not ignore the wider issue, should gender identity determine gender?

All that video does is highlight that a shouty man doesn't understand the difference between sex and gender.

Just heading back to the trope of "we're all entitled to our opinions":

[img] [/img]

Kelly-Anne Conway notwithstanding, there are only one set of facts, and if your opinions don't align with them then you should be open to ridicule. In the context of the present argument, as others have said, the reason people presume that gender fluidity is a new thing is simply because up until a few years ago anyone who stepped out of the cis binary world was pushed back into it, frequently with tragic results.

there are only one set of facts

That is not always true. And in the case of humans, facts are only opinions that most people share anyway. This is why we have such a problem. It is perfectly possible for no-one to know the truth even if it is knowable, which is in itself debatable.

thanks for the tucker carson video enfht he really is spectacularly ill informed , and fails to grasp simple points. It is a real laugh to watch him thrash aimlessly about.

His whole argument seems to be that people randomly select gender identity on a whim, so it must be a fake thing otherwise big butch blokes would get to play women's sports for a laugh.

I'd be surprised if you would any qualified scientist ie biologist or psychiatrist who would argue that gender was purely binary or indeed that race was anything more than a geographical and social construct.

And in the case of humans, facts are only opinions that most people share anyway.

See. Quantifiably wrong. Facts are facts, absolute.

Opinions are people's differing perceptions of those facts, frequently infused with an unhealthy dose of sky magician dogma thrown in.