My front door lock has broken - the 5 point handle works but the sprung centre latch has lost it's spring so it doesn't push shut any longer and has to be keylocked to keep it shut
The door's over 10 years old so I didn't expect a free repair under warranty, but I contacted the firm that fitted it to ask for a repair and was told to send some photos so they could price up. I said it should be on their system as they fitted it, but they don't keep records that far back (I'd have thought as a local / family firm someone would know what parts they used but OK)
Photos sent, and still no good, they need to send someone to look at it and measure up, for which there is a £120 + VAT call out. Here's the key part though 'which will be deducted from the cost of any further work'.
Man attends, here for literally 5 mins to take a couple of measurements and tighten a hinge which makes no difference to the latching. Leaves invoice for £120 + VAT
Nothing for 2 weeks until I chase them for a quote for the repair, and now they tell me it's another £117.50 + VAT for the locking mechanism, on top of the £120. I have just asked what about the 'being deducted from the cost of any further work' and they are saying that is only the labour element, parts not included.
AIBU
How long does it take to remove and refit a new latching mechanism - because they're saying that is covered by the £120 call out, but to me that's a lot of labour if it's a 15 minute task.
AIBU because they haven't been very clear in excluding parts and materials in their offer of work (by email) - and if they had I'd probably have used a local locksmith trading from a van instead.
AIBU to be a little pissed off with them because they are avoiding telling me what part I need so I can price up replacing it myself? How hard is a new locking mech?
How long does it take to remove and refit a new latching mechanism - because they're saying that is covered by the £120 call out, but to me that's a lot of labour if it's a 15 minute task.
Probably depends on how fancy the lock is. If it's just the lump around the handle only, when I replaced ours a couple of years back must have taken 2 hours all in. Half of which was travelling to a lock shop and back.
Does it have multi point locking? That might be a faff.
Hard to tell. I usually do all my own maintenance and I had an old Everest door that needed the lock changed. It was a proper faff to get it out and it was a bit of a gamble to order one, not being certain that it was the right one. The cheapest I found was about £170 and it was a right game fitting it. There are dozens of locks, some ranging from £20 to £250. So unless you take yours out you won't be able to tell which one you need (to see if the price is right) and £120 for two visits isn't completely off the scale.
AIBU to be a little pissed off with them because they are avoiding telling me what part I need so I can price up replacing it myself?
I think so, yes.
AIBU to be a little pissed off with them because they are avoiding telling me what part I need so I can price up replacing it myself? How hard is a new locking mech?
thats exactly what this pricing structure is designed to discourage.
I think the problem is, as you suspect, you called a company that installs doors - not, say, a locksmith who diagnoses/repairs/installs locks. It's maybe just not the right scale and value of work for them to do with any really efficiency or economy.
But it wasn't their idea for you to call them.
If they're principally installers then hardware like locks/latches/handles will often be supplied to them with, or even installed in, the doors already, they won't necessarily have a stock of smaller hardware on the shelf.
Unless its something especially unusual a locksmith would probably have something suitable in the back of their van on the first visit, or could pick one up from screwfix in 10 mins but larger contractors don't necessarily have that flexibility.
It would be a bit like calling up Marks and Sparks and expecting them to know what zip is in a pair of trousers you bought 10 years ago and to have a replacement zip readily to hand.
I say all that having done the same thing myself last year when a latch on one of our UPVC windows corroded and seized up - on a similar logic that the original installers would most likely have he compatible parts to hand. But similarly it tool ages, for the simple reason that as installers most of their jobs involve replacing all the windows in a building, not fiddling around with one little latch so just scheduling it in between multi day contracts took time. We were fine about that as were in no hurry. On the day they could finally come it was pissing with rain and storm wossname had ripped a bit of our gutter off which meant the poor guy was on a ladder under cascading water which was bouncing off him and drenching the guy footing his ladder. Poor guys. More than earned their £120. 🙂
I can't comment on this particular case but a lot of small trades businesses will often quote a half-day rate for what is perceived to be a 15-30 minute job because
a) they will not be able to do any other work for the rest of that morning/afternoon
b) there is no guarantee that once they have started the initial job that a bigger problem may be revealed that needs to be fixed to prevent the initial issue reoccurring
I have recently replaced a couple of locks in our conservatory and after getting the locks paired so the same key will work them both it wasn't much short of 170 quid from a local locksmith and that was doing the actual work myself.
Does the lock not have trademark and model names on it ? I replaced a whole lock and mechanism for less than you have paid for a wee visit by buying it all myself from a local place. This was in a city, and was 15 years ago, but still...
(And I feel your frustration having waited 6 weeks for the person to come sort our slightly drafty patio doors in a new build. After 3 no-shows he rocked up today, traipsed mud through the house (one of the doors is an upstairs balcony) and took a grand total of 10 minutes to sort the doors...)
Nothing I recognise as a brandname that's findable by googling '5 point locking mechanism' or similar. The tradename of the windows is easily findable, I still have the original paperwork from when they were fitted and seems like they fit one of a couple of mechs to their doors, but as I say nothing on the door mech itself.
And they don't want to tell me what it is - 'don't want to be used like a price comparison website'
Am I not entitled to know what locking mechanism they used in a door they supplied and fitted for me, especially as I have paid them £144 for a survey to find that out?
But it wasn't their idea for you to call them.
True - although they prominently advertise their repair service including repairing fittings supplied by others so viewing them as installers isn't really right.
Changing locks is usually a basic DIY job unless it's a super fancy multi deadlocky thing with deadbolt at the top, middle and bottom of the door ?
If it's just a lock and handle just get a diamond rated uliton or similar.. Probaly about £100 and half an hour's work.
If the door or frame itself is shagged that obviously complicates things.
Simple solution.
Does the 5 lever dead lock operate loads of other bits of hardware above and below the keep?
If yes = locksmith
If no = Screwfix.
Remove lock , 10 mins max .
Drive to Screwfix, " I'd like a new one of those please"
Get into the quagmire of set back , case sizing, bs numbers etc . Expect 12 mins to find the correct new one. If in stock happy days . If not it'll be a tcnd after 1200 tomoz.
Return home and either refit broken one till tomorrow, or fit new one , max 8 mins
Then reward yourself with tea and medals
Many years ago, I worked for a company that had the contract to repair the plastic windows and door for the local Borough Council and sometimes we had to order in locking mechanisms. The vital information is the distance between the centre of each locking point from the centre of the door handle.
I’m confident that with those measurements you will be able to locate one from a supplier and if you are comfortable servicing your bike then you will easily fit it to the door, basically the opposite of how you remove the broken one. If you aren’t that confident then I’m sure there will be a video of how to on the tube.
Sounds like the lockbox, not the cylinder. If you can set up gears on a bike you can change it yourself with YouTube. Down to Screwfix, use the old cylinder so you don't need new keys. Might even be as simple as a bit of a clean and lubricate.
You had me at a £150 callout fee to come look at it.
Unless I'm reading a different thread to everyone else it's nothing to do with the locking mechanism, it's the door latch. Popping down to Screwfix for a new Eurocylinder is going to do the square root of jeff all.
IANAlocksmith.
Believe it or not Screwfix actually sell complete lock assemblies and parts for uPVC doors . A euro cylinder is used on uPVC front and rear patio or french doors .
A complete monoblock unit on wooden doors .
I know , I used to sell loads of them .
A complete lock system for a 5 point front composite door took me about 2 hours to fit.
Fiddly but not impossible.
If it's just the handle not returning up you need a new handle. Get on Screwfix website with the Exact measurements and it will be much less than £200
how much is the skills knowledge and experience worth?
OK, you'll shortly see I don't know quite how door 'locks' work or what the bits are called and I'm sure someone will be along to say that's why I need to pay £144 (edit beaten to it by TJ). But I can fix stuff a lot of the time, not a total numpty and the only reason I haven't stripped it all out to work it out is because it's the front door and I can't do half a job and then go to Screwfix for parts leaving it swinging in the wind. And the potential for loads of bits to fall out and end up with springs and cogs all over the shop (although looking at screwfix stuff, seems these are very self contained units)
There's three key features (pun very much intended)
1/ a bog standard Euro cylinder key operated lock
This locks the door, but also when turned the other way operates the latch - so (when working properly) opens the door from outside, ie you need a key to get in - the handle doesn't operate the latch from outside (so if door shuts behind you, you're locked out, ask me how I know)
2/ a handle - this operates the latch from the inside, but not the outside so you can get out without using the key, but you need the key from outside.
1&2 work together by the square spindle being in 2 parts that male and female together so when one side turns the other doesn't automatically follow it.
The handle also when lifted makes (3) happen. Which is that 4 more locking features are engaged - two roller pins and 2 hook type things.
There's some other designed idiosyncrasies, so that you can't key lock the door from either side without lifting the handle to engage the 4 extra locking points, so the 'mechanism' (gearbox, I think) must have quite some complexity inside it.
The ONLY bit that doesn't actually work is the latch - the chamfered thing that clicks shut has lost its spring so it doesn't push back into the striker. Which means we can't simply shut the door - we either have to hold it shut by engaging the locking features of 3 but that can be defeated by operating the handle from outside so anyone can just walk in. Or we have to lock ourselves in as well as out.
If someone can decipher that and tell me to dismantle it, that it won't explode, and from that I can work out what new part I need I might be convinced to give it a go.
sorry jon but its right - what you are paying for is the skills knowledge and experience plus 2 visits each being 2 or 3 hours out of a day ( or more)( plus a visit to the suppliers to pick up stuff plus the insurance to cover the risk if they eff it up. Funnily enough I was looking at a malfunctioning upvc multi locking door today. I have loads of DIY and building experience having fully refurbished 3 houses and having worked for a builder. I decided not to do anything with it as the risk was too high of damaging it
its expensive yes but not nearly as expensive as you think.
How much is your time charged out at?
No, that is fair comment. I'm still a little irked that having been told the cost of the first call out would be offset against the cost of 'any further work' that is not the case; and only labour is actually included.
Having now watched a couple of vids, seems like a new gearbox isn't a huge job. My time is expensive, yes, but I'm considerably on the time rich / cash poor at present so nearly £300 for something i can do is not easy to just swallow. Being £144 in for the privilege of a 10 minute visit and not being told what i need feels like being ripped off tbh.
Being £144 in for the privilege of a 10 minute visit
its not just 10 mins tho is it? its 2 or 3 hours of time used to do this probably ( depends where their base is)
I’ve happily had the euro cylinder keyed 5 point lock out of my wooden front door, changed the lock unit, slipped the euro cylinder back in and reassembled it.
l’m definitely a DIYer and it was pretty straightforward.
By Google maps, 1.5 miles, 6 mins. I can actually see the trading estate they're on from my front door.
It's pretty standard for any tradie to charge about £150 for a call out, and that includes the 1st hours labour (parts extra).
Because they'd never make any money driving all over the place to do pissy little 20min jobs.
Aye, £150/hour for labour seems completely reasonable.
For the entire day, sure. For a pissy little 20 minute job?
Aye, £150/hour for labour seems completely reasonable.
For the entire day, sure. For a pissy little 20 minute job?
It's including call out... they have to get there, and then do a 20 min job, and then go to another job...so that could easily be half a day gone for the sake of 20 mins work. It's not worth getting out of bed for.
Self employed, their travel time is dead time when they arn't earning money. The labour rate after that initial call out & 'free' 1st hour is probaly less than half that.
Having worked in various trades, I've found that sometimes the jobs that are worth the most can be those you can do in not a lot of time (mainly because you've built up so much experience!).
A customer put it to me that he wasn't paying me for the time it took, but the amount of time and effort it saved him!
Ok, thanks stw. Post was to get views on whether the pricing and approach was reasonable and consensus is yes, that it is.
It's also inspired me to look into doing it myself, so thanks for those tips too.
Jon, were you wandering around the house in just your arm and leg warmers again? If so, no wonder they charged a premium, poor bloke is probably still getting flashbacks...................
By Google maps, 1.5 miles, 6 mins. I can actually see the trading estate they're on from my front door.
Move further away - you'll get your moneys worth then!
Call-out fees are standardised because working out bespoke call out fees for every job would take more time and add more costs.
A customer put it to me that he wasn't paying me for the time it took, but the amount of time and effort it saved him!
That is how I look at things. I could change the oil in my car but the effort of doing it and mostly getting rid of the old oil makes it not worth the bother, whereas I would never pay someone to do work on my bike as I can do it more quickly (not having to take bike anywhere) and I actually enjoy doing it.
It is good that you are looking to fix the door yourself and you have had some great pointers above.
Regarding the call out rate it is what a service business needs to charge to run a profitable business.
Engineers can be in high demand so salaries are reasonable. They travel around in a van and lease rates are high. Fuel needs adding. Tools are expensive. Insurance is high. They are productively/charging engaged 70%-80% of their working week so that factors up the costs. There is then an office with admin salaries to pay and they need to make a profit. Average travel times between jobs are 1-2 hours depending on industry. Paperwork needs doing.
Unfortunately time is money.
Aye, £150/hour for labour seems completely reasonable.
For the entire day, sure. For a pissy little 20 minute job?
Wait till you see the cost for diag on a car.
~£237 doesn't seem unreasonable at all TBH.
When ours went on the flat they wouldn't fix it and said it had to be an entire new door, I didn't question it too much as it's the OH's flat, the tenants needed it doing ASAP, so it wasn't my problem.
When the one on our front door failed I paid more attention to it, and bough this (or something very similar).
It's an easy-ish DIY job to replace it, the only complicated bit is inevitably needing a load more screws, bolts etc because either they won't line up or when they do the holes are too big for the included to bite into. But if I was doing that professionally and only making ~£150 across callouts, that's probably barely worth it.
£237 + VAT - nearly £300 to me. £120 + VAT for the call out and labour, £117.50 + VAT for the new part
Which leads a bit of a development yesterday though. After saying they weren't going to get used as a price comparison site, ie not tell me what the part I need is, to which I argued that as the original customer I feel it's not unreasonable to know what parts are in the door they fitted (to MCK's M&S zip analogy - I disagree, they supply relatively few door types and the securing mechanism is a substantial part of the structure, so they should know what they have fitted. Secondly, it's not a 'disposable' item - but if you want a trousers analogy, I'd liken it to Hebtroco, Community Clothing, Howies.... who I think would be able to tell you what they'd fitted to their garments over the years)
And then as I'd paid £120 + VAT for someone to visit and advise me of next step, to say 'the spring in the latch has gone but that'll mean a new gearbox but I'm not telling you which one' is not IMO appropriate, whether that's the business model or not.
So I asked again and they have sent me a part number. Which when I look at online turns out to be clearly not the gearbox in my door (the latch is clearly different) and instead of a replacement gearbox they've quoted me for a full new 5 point system.
You know that thing where initially I asked am I being unreasonable, but there's a gut instinct they're trying to pull the wool over my eyes, either by fibbing over the part I need, or stealth upselling to make more money - or maybe it isn't worth their effort so they're giving me a 'go away' price but if so just be honest about it, tell me so and the part I need and let me find another way to sort it.
or maybe it isn't worth their effort so they're giving me a 'go away' price but if so just be honest about it, tell me so and the part I need and let me find another way to sort it.
Sounds like they're charging you the "we've got a right one here" rate!
So I asked again and they have sent me a part number. Which when I look at online turns out to be clearly not the gearbox in my door (the latch is clearly different) and instead of a replacement gearbox they've quoted me for a full new 5 point system.
Or it's quicker and easier to fit a complete new part than repairing an old one. And in the old system there may be other parts that have worn and may fail any time.
Or just maybe individual parts for a lock over ten years old are no longer available.
that was rubbish, the bloke should have had some spares with him, and if it's just the latch spring, that's not hard to replace - they do snap (i know i did mine) and it's still working (just) but does need a proper replacement as i bodged mine with a random spring i havd lying around.
But if I was doing that professionally and only making ~£150 across callouts, that's probably barely worth it.
If you only did one a day, that's a salary north of £40k (I think).
Which when I look at online turns out to be clearly not the gearbox in my door (the latch is clearly different) and instead of a replacement gearbox they've quoted me for a full new 5 point system.
You know that thing where initially I asked am I being unreasonable, but there's a gut instinct they're trying to pull the wool over my eyes, either by fibbing over the part I need, or stealth upselling to make more money
Playing devil's advocate here,
I can't see how there's much profit to be had in upselling a full backset over a gearbox, and perhaps it's a bit like a "chain and cassette" replacement - ie, when it fails again in an unrelated way a month later the customer is going to come screaming back to them about their shoddy repair. If it's all got to come apart anyway to get at the gearbox then it's probably sensible to replace all the moving parts in one bounce rather than refitting hardware which is potentially badly worn.
Maybe.
If it helps, I replaced the gearbox/latch unit in my 5-point latch door last week. It's a bit of a faff as I had to get my wife to hold in the top and bottom actuating rods as I screwed it all together but it's certainly doable in an hour or so. Hope you find the part (Google image search?).
But if I was doing that professionally and only making ~£150 across callouts, that's probably barely worth it.
If you only did one a day, that's a salary north of £40k (I think).
Which when I look at online turns out to be clearly not the gearbox in my door (the latch is clearly different) and instead of a replacement gearbox they've quoted me for a full new 5 point system.
You know that thing where initially I asked am I being unreasonable, but there's a gut instinct they're trying to pull the wool over my eyes, either by fibbing over the part I need, or stealth upselling to make more money
Playing devil's advocate here,
I can't see how there's much profit to be had in upselling a full backset over a gearbox, and perhaps it's a bit like a "chain and cassette" replacement - ie, when it fails again in an unrelated way a month later the customer is going to come screaming back to them about their shoddy repair. If it's all got to come apart anyway to get at the gearbox then it's probably sensible to replace all the moving parts in one bounce rather than refitting hardware which is potentially badly worn.
Maybe.
Yeah It's possible they are being a bit cute there, that said, if they are self employed, from that 40k they are paying thier own and employers tax, NI and private pension, account for time off (holiday/leave) accountancy/admin time, van hire/purchase, van running costs, tools, sundries, business liability insurance...all of a sudden that 40k is not looking so good.
10 plus yr old door lock? Just replace the whole thing, save yourself grief a few months down the line when something else fails.
^ is the sensible answer but as per earlier in thread, due to a couple of 'unfortunate events' (including my own stupidity in not realising something) I find myself spectacularly cash poor right now and so if I can do a £10 fix, better than a £50 fix, far better than a £300 fix even if it it needs revisiting in a year's time.