[Closed] Trade unions

No, chuffing stranglehold on business.

Just look at the Southern Rail horsecrap.

You must live in a world of navel gazing.

Unions are very good at dealing with these issues and you get the help for the cost of your membership rather than £200 an hour from an employment lawyer.

Mine is shit. A few colleagues have had to go to an outside solicitor to fight their cases when the union said it wasn't fightable. Three have won.

Unionised workplaces have better terms and conditions as well.

My union is so far in the pocket of the management (upper levels and my workplace rep) that we are having our conditions eroded every time we come to pay talks pretty much without a fight!

Just being in a union makes employers think twice about shafting you.

Nope, the last round of redundancies we had the 5 people who left were all union members. Three non-members who are constantly crap at their jobs were kept on as they are related to them management! They just chose which criteria to use that gave them the result they wanted.

An international company BTW, not a small operation.

Not recognised by my employer so not really helpful .

They can be very good but also blinkered and cause issues for staff and management that just isn't necessary.

Not recognised by my employer so not really helpful .

Solicitors aren't recognised?

Not being recognised does not mean you can't join a union and use one for representation.

Look at kabihs thread below. We get these on here every week or two. This is when unions are at their most useful - when things go wrong

Ours is pretty shite, I'm basically paying £14 a month for a Prison Officers Association diary. It's often called the most expensive diary in the world.
Staff who aren't in the POA have successfully used normal solicitors for representation when needed.

I think I'll unjoin actually.

The unfortunate reality is that the essential element of unionisation has been lost in the UK, they are in essence about employees sticking together to support each other. The propaganda of selfishness and individual greed has won, and now most people no longer realise they would be better off if they did stick together.

until you need their help because the employer is trying to shaft you!

think of it as insurance against unfair dismissal / workplace bullying / mistreatment at work.

I am going to phone my union shortly. I need a bit of advice about a workplace issue one I am not sure of.

We recently had a nasty incident with a bullying co worker who had been suspended for bullying and we were promised by management that he would not be coming back to our workplace. We got wind that infact management were going to return him to our workplace. This was on a friday and he was going to return on the monday. Several colleagues were actually scared of this man. We took advice from the union and we got it stopped. tough on the bully but a great outcome for the rest of the workers. Without the union the bully would have come back and continued to bully folk.

+1 for tyagain

In the case of discrimination, unfair dismissal, harassment etc, the company will have their own professional in terms of the Human Resource Mnager / department.

Without your professional representative (Union rep), you will have to go in and fight your own case without understanding employment rules and regulations.

Admittedly, the unions did come in for some criticism and nobody is perfect, even the unions.

My wife was a member of a union for years, when she actually needed them for advice, they were about a useful as a chocolate teapot.

and there we are. Quick phone call to my rep, I am right on the issue in question so now I can go back to my manager and tell her she is being unreasonable while I am sure of my ground

Just look at the Southern Rail horsecrap.

A complete mess caused by incompetent management and government.

Just look at the Southern Rail horsecrap.
A complete mess caused by incompetent management and government.

I loved that MP who stood in front of a camera and said something pretty close to "All the union is concerned about is the pay and conditions of their members".

Ours is pretty shite, I'm basically paying £14 a month for a Prison Officers Association diary. It's often called the most expensive diary in the world.

If not helps your paying almost half what I pay but I get a pen too.

We are currently going through a pension consultation at the moment, the union (UNITE) have basically rolled over and are not doing anything much to help members to raise pertinent questions. Luckily there are a lot of people who have done the work I believe the unions should have done to help members raise genuine questions and concerns.
My wife who works for the NHS has just had a 30% staff cut in Worcestershire and an increased expectation on the services they are expected to be delivering - UNITE stance on this was nothing we can do, the same week they sound out an email inviting ALL their members to attend a march in London to save the NHS - smacks of doing eff all at working level but lets get our faces on the telly!!
Am seriously considering using my £16 a month on something worthwhile!! (as is my wife)

They're an absolute scourge.

I remember in the thread about a poster's wife not being granted leave, someone posted a link to the TUC website which basically suggested that if your employer is acting legally to play the race card.

I loved that MP who stood in front of a camera and said something pretty close to "All the union is concerned about is the pay and conditions of their members".

It's odd, isn't it? Businesses are applauded for acting in the interests of their shareholders...

Without the union the bully would have come back and continued to bully folk.

Of course there is a good chance that without the union the bully would have been unceremoniously fired in the first place and has now been suspended on full pay prior to being paid off and given a glowing reference to go do the same somewhere else.

Unions are neither good nor bad, unfortunately they're made up of people who are commonly one or other.

Unions only work if you join them and support them.
Go and have a chat with your rep now and again.
Vote.

If you don't like your rep, become one too.

A union, just like a board of directors, will never be perfect because it contains people.

However, they are the single most important tool we have, the only way of ensuring that the vast majority of the population are able to be represented in an increasingly rapcious and backward looking workplace.

Join a union.

Mine's pretty bad - UCU, a Daily mail caricature of a union. £22 a month and no diary, no pen, although I could probably get a free subscription to marxism today if I asked.
I should leave, but I've always been a member because I teach undergraduates, and teaching unions make sense to me. When you have as little confidence in the union's ability as I do, though, I'm likely wasting my time.

ransos - Member
I loved that MP who stood in front of a camera and said something pretty close to "All the union is concerned about is the pay and conditions of their members".

It's odd, isn't it? Businesses are applauded for acting in the interests of their shareholders...

The issue tends to be lack of foresight on the part of the unions.

Miners strike killed the mining industry in this country just as surely as Thatcher rubbed her hands in glee as she gave them the rope to hang themselves.

I seem to remember an issue at ?grangemouth? Not so long ago where the union advised its members to force closure rather than accept cuts to "overtime".

Equally I'm sure you can find a lot of instances where unions do the right thing and stop their employees being shat upon.

Speaking as a secondary school teacher... you'd be foolish not to have the legal protection that a union offers. We're lucky enough to have a very active union rep at the school, always on hand for advice.

Of course there is a good chance that without the union the bully would have been unceremoniously fired in the first place and has now been suspended on full pay prior to being paid off and given a glowing reference to go do the same somewhere else.

What you are talking about there is managers failing to do their job properly.

The issue tends to be lack of foresight on the part of the unions.

That's sometimes true, but if you look at the tiny percentage of strike days in this country, I suggest it's true much less often than vested interests would have us believe.

CGT are in the UK too - really constructive in France, 10% unemployment and 25% amongst the young. They do seem to attract a certain quality of rioter though.

Strangely finding myself agreeing with TJ here, but there seems to be 2 different aspects that folk are talking about. Firstly, standard shop floor and wage negotiation stuff - ours is actually ok at this, it's the members that are greedy! Secondly (what TJ's talking about) is the backup from the union proper should you ever have an issue - basically legal insurance should something happen to you

Membership of mine costs ~£600/yr. It's still worth it - just - but I do wonder how much of the money is going towards defined benefit pensions and s****y offices.

That's sometimes true, but if you look at the tiny percentage of strike days in this country, I suggest it's true much less often than vested interests would have us believe.

Agreed but equally no one whines when in 95% of cases everything works. The southern rail thing etc is a perfect example of when people do whine and something is genuinely wrong with the process what that is of course depends on your view. I personally can't help but think the failure in that particular instance (and most where it goes badly wrong i should think) is the [involment of] government but that's a different discussion.

What you are talking about there is managers failing to do their job properly.

Having been both sides of that I'd go so far as to say that [part of the] job is *sometimes* made near impossible by the unions. Most managers aren't trained solicitors nor do they spend all day "every" day prepping/defending cases nor do they always have the evidence to do so. Union representation sometimes is the former, usually does the second and has no burden of the third. (Unrelated obviously but, if proving a transgression were always easy the CPS would have better figures).

For what is worth btw, i think unions are brilliant for developing and defending individual('s) rights, i think where they're less brilliant is when it comes to mass representation.

Agreed but equally no one whines when in 95% of cases everything works. The southern rail thing etc is a perfect example of when people do whine and something is genuinely wrong with the process what that is of course depends on your view. I personally can't help but think the failure in that particular instance (and most where it goes badly wrong i should think) is the [involment of] government but that's a different discussion.

Having been both sides of that I'd go so far as to say that [part of the] job is *sometimes* made near impossible by the unions. Most managers aren't trained solicitors nor do they spend all day "every" day prepping/defending cases nor do they always have the evidence to do so. Union representation sometimes is the former, usually does the second and has no burden of the third. (Unrelated obviously but, if proving a transgression were always easy the CPS would have better figures).

Thank you legend - you understood the post. Every week or two we get folk on here looking for employment advice that they could have got for the cost of their union subs. Not in a union - fight alone or pay thru the nose for an " employment lawyer" is is often as incompetent as the HR bods

I have been a manager with hire and fire power as well. Its simple and straightforward to fire someone if you have good reason - even underperformance. Its just managers and often HR are incompetent in this area.

I was a member of Unite for a long time, they were some ruthless ****ers I must say.

I've never had a job with such great benefits and stress reducing rules in regards to dismissal & redundancy.

"[i]Without the union the bully would have come back and continued to bully folk.[/i]"

I'm assuming the alleged bully was not a union member ? If he was they would have stepped up and stopped his unfair dismissal.

I would, but my local reps are such work shy Bolshevik incompetents who actively try to block any kind of progress that I don't want to be associated with them.

Sunday jumper
He was a union member and the union fought for him quite rightly - we actually had to go to a different rep so a to avoid the conflict of interest.

It was a nasty case without any clear winners and again we go back to the above point about weak and incompetent management. This man had been bullying people for 7 years, had been disciplined twice, had been moved to other areas 4 times, been given thru his employer anger management courses, and a lot of other support as he clearly had problems to deal with. He should ave been sacked for the latest offence but because management were so weak and had not followed their own procedures he wasn't. We had been promised by management he would not be allowed back onto the ward after the incident where he reduced 2 grown women to tears and I thought I was going to have to lay hands on him to get him out of the situation. He then followed this up by making threats to the staff on social media and via text messages.

After our intervention - basically saying we would not work with him again - he was moved once more to another ward where he did the same again. Demoted and moved to a further ward

It would not have been an unfair dismissal - gross misconduct on more than 20 occasions over 7 years. He also was unpleasant to vulnerable patients

It is all very well saying it is a good insurance policy, but if that is all you are looking it is pretty expensive, especially as your household insurance will often provide some legal cover.

They're not universally excellent and even TJ would probably admit as much if pressed, but the positives far outweigh the negatives.

You say you want examples?
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[My union was invaluable during the period leading up to me leaving my workplace. The workplace rep, the local and regional officers were supportive and the legal department excellent.

Individual union reps being less than useful does not alter the fact that the concept of legal unionisation is the greatest single thing that has ever happened to the working man (and woman, Ford!). Any union is only as strong as its members. People who feel that their reps underperform need to get involved, take a role, not bitch and whinge. United we stand, divided we fall. Have a think about who gains on a macro scale if the populous loses faith and sight of what unions have done for them. Clue; if you've less than several million invested in various portfolios, it's not you!

[quote="chakaping"]

They're not universally excellent and even TJ would probably admit as much if pressed, but the positives far outweigh the negatives.

Oh indeed - I remember the demarcation disputes and so on. Personally I would prefer the german model of co operation to the UK one of adversarial combat but it takes both sides to do that and our bosses simply don't want to even if the unions do

seen a few different flavours of unions and reps, they vary wildly.

back in previous employment, union reps were just the most er 'vocal' members on the shop floor, who then thought they had to make an impression by making everything as difficult as possible for management. much the same as both sides of that shower of sh1te in parliament, they just object to what the others doing whether its a good idea or not. also seen good union reps that work with management to get mutually acceptable compromises.

these days im still not happy with my union, but as others have stated, its 'insurance against bad things happening to you'. ive thought about dropping out as pretty much every vote i take part in im on the losing side 😀 yes, i realise that means the majority are being represented rather than just little old me but i dont like the way ours try and sway the vote to go the way they want. theyve also lied to us to get their way, so i just dont trust them at all.
theres also the gleeful rubbing of hands when theyre off on another [s]p1ss-up[/s] er [s]jolly[/s] er union meeting dahn london or whatever paid by us, leaves a bad taste. like i say, i dont trust em at all, so i still may drop out sometime and save meself £30 a month, what stops me is i just feel we should still all stand together and id be letting mates down not paying anything but still getting any benefits they fight for.

all a bit negaitive isnt it, however, i do still think people should join a union. i agree with what they stand for, i just personally dont think ours are effective. others will differ.

back in previous employment, union reps were just the most er 'vocal' members on the shop floor, who then thought they had to make an impression by making everything as difficult as possible for management.

I'm sure this is not unusual. We had the same experience and the union didn't really achieve anything until said father-of-chapel departed.

I was later persuaded to stand for the role as it looked like we'd get a similar character otherwise. We then took a softer approach which better represented what members wanted, leading to more recruits and some great outcomes for people facing redundancy.

Mine is pretty invisible tbh but they're generally there when it really counts- interventions with problems, we had a sucessful strike for pay a while back. But I have a broadly reasonable employer so it's not like they're intervening day to day to stop us getting bummed.

Back in the bank essentially every management process went like this:
Management bullshit
Union intervention
More management bullshit
Union upgunning
Brief outbreak of sanity.

Essentially nothing happened without the union involved. I'm sure to some people they were troublemakers and we were all bolshy but it was a direct result of middle managers being led to feel like they were gods, and HR people who thought their job was to agree with managers even on points of law. Not even big stuff, little random gems like "If you're not here 30 minutes before your official start time, you're late"

+1 tj - again 🙂

Unions aren't always that great, but having worked in a job with a fairly ineffective but well-intentioned union, and one where there was no union recognition at all, there's no question which I'd prefer. At least in the former case the union did manage to bring management to heel when they seriously overstepped their authority and ignored their own procedures (new boss trying to stamp his authority on the place). Whereas in the latter the management was seriously, ludicrously incompetent even when they were trying to do the right thing. And with no checks and balances, they just ran the company into oblivion.