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maverickboy - please, just stop.
I'm willing to bet that 99.9% of us would have panicked like f*ck, and probably died too. It's easy to say what you would have done from behind a keyboard, but in an unfamiliar car full of screaming people, at speed, heading for an accident - we'd (almost) all sh*t it. FACT
So I knocked it out of gear, coasted onto the side of the road and switched the ignition off. Then called someone with a trailer to come and pick me up...
So if you couldn't cut the ignition, you couldn't get it out of gear and your brakes had failed then what would you have done? Tell us oh Driving God?
It took me over a year to work out I could turn my bugging PC off by holding the button down for 5s rather than switching it off at the mains.
The guy driving though, I'd suggest he was a victim of his own panic or lack of driving ability, hence much less sympathy for him
Are you into eugenics? Those who have less than stellar intelligence should die? Just thought I'd ask.
Anyone can make a mistake. There are lots of ways people could have avoided the accidents they end up having, even when the situation they found themselves in wasn't their fault.
Just because the driver didn't think of the thing that may have saved his family, does not mean that it's OKAY that he died. Lack of perfection should not mean death is deserving... hence the comment about eugenics.
There has been a shed load written about this look at the LA Times auto pages. Lots of modern powerful cars won't stop a full throttle engine on the brakes - and in a heavily trafficed urban environment I'd suggest some you should come and try controlling such a car up, say the London end of the M3 I'd bet none of you would get past the first roundabout.
The guy driving though, I'd suggest he was a victim of his own panic or lack of driving ability, hence much less sympathy for him
Don't forget there were three adults in the car and I don't think that the other two would have been keeping their suggestions to themselves. I still think they'd tried pretty much everything - other than the 'secret turning engine off while moving technique'.
My father in law has a lexus with push button ignition - I very much doubt he would know how to stop the engine when moving.
Maybe it could also be argued that the garage that lent him the car 'may' also be to blame for not going through this 'safety' feature before he took the car?
MaverickBoy - Member
The guy driving though, I'd suggest he was a victim of his own panic or lack of driving ability, hence much less sympathy for him
Have you been reading this thread?
There seems to be a lot of unfair blame for the driver. This was a car that was unfamiliar to him. I suspect he was a more skilled driver than assumed.
The real point is that the car had a fault that killed a whole family.
It could happen to any one of us (except the driving gods who have the benefit of hindsight).
Moral of the story - don't buy, drive, or get in a Toyota until this nasty little fault is fixed.
Been in the motor trade for years and sold numerous automatic vans. I wouldnt know how to stop the car in that situation either.
I only hope that in that kind of situtation i have the presence of mind to plant it into whatever immovable object i could find before it got to such a velocity that i wouldnt survive (Ie crash it). I would also be looking for some dievine intervention and a new set of underpants.
I honestly havent a clue if a automatic can be shunted from drive to neutral whilst under load, i dont think they can but i will be testing it on the next one i get in.
Considering the guy was a traffic cop i recon its safe to asume he had a level of common sense and that if he thought it would work he would have tried it. Tragic accident involving a family so doesnt deserve flippant comments
Cooked brakes from prolonged braking? What would happen if you slam them on? Just wondering. Pretty sure i'd be progressive braking, but would a hard slam stall teh engine?
Not with ABS
Why would abs make a difference?
Because it won't let you lock the wheels which you'd have to do to stall the engine. If you try to decelerate faster than the sytem is programmed to accept it kicks in and modulates the Brakes. Old autos could be shifted to neutral but now they have fuel-saving lockouts I very much doubt you can at speed.
I was surprised that someone said that is you brake in a Passat it automatically cuts throttle. I've been able to left-foot brake in every FWD car I've ever driven with no effect on power.
Why would abs make a difference?
I think maybe if you could get the brakes to lock you might be able to stall the car - but ABS won't let you do this. I presume he'd tried chucking it into neutral - faced with a massive accident you'd try everything you could think of.
I believe he was driving a loaner car, so I would assume he was unfamiliar with it's controls.
And pardon my ignorance but how do you stop one of these under normal circumstances?
Moral of the story - don't buy, drive, or get in a Toyota until this nasty little fault is fixed.
Lots of comments on the BBC story about people having accelerator pedals jam - lots of them not Toyotas. It's not like they all do it. I'll still be driving mine. Admittedly it's not an affected model!
Cooked brakes from prolonged braking? What would happen if you slam them on? Just wondering. Pretty sure i'd be progressive braking, but would a hard slam stall teh engine?
Do you really think that he was just gently tickling the pedal whilst he sped towards certain death for him and his family? 🙄
My sympathies to the family - in fairness the automatic should and could go into neutral but he probably didn't think about it and panicked. Brakes wouldn't hold the whole engine's power either - just awful for them all. A family died nastily here - sympathy is a good thing right now.
Seems odd about the brakes not being able to dissipate the car. I mean they can slow it from 70mph faster than you can accelerate to that speed.. so surely they should be more than a match?
Confused.
molgrips - the brakes would have boiled. Bear in mind the brakes were trying to stop a 272bhp car weighing a couple of tons that was on full throttle. No contest sadly 🙁
The cock-sure self-righteousness of the hindsight jockeys in this thread is truly astounding.
Yes 272bhp is a lot but thing about it - you can stop from 60 quicker than you can accelerate to 60 - so the brakes must be able to exert more torque than the engine.. My guess is you'd have slowed a fair bit before brake fade caused them to loose effectiveness.
Also in american, they have those silly column shifters for a gear stick on autos if it had one that is.
i havent read the report but maybe he called the police to clear the road ahead so he didnt cause a accident like he might of by just spinning the car out.
Also hard to just pull handbrake on as it will rip the shoes off or just wear down the pad material like the fronts or snap cables but mostly it may have the park function on the colum shift again.
Autos will never go into park whilst moving, none that i have seen anyhow..
IIRC he couldn't shut off the engine because he had to hold the start button for three seconds - not something that is easy to do when your car is out of control at full speed.
As for the braking I also seem to remember that there was a problem with the vacuum assist not having as much power when the throttle was fully open. What I don't understand in something as electronic as these cars how someone hadn't spotted the failure mode of a stuck accelerator (for whatever reason) and someone pressing on the brakes at the same time and then letting the brakes override. Hindsight is great of course but it does seem like the sort of possibility that might get picked up in fault analysis
Also in american, they have those silly column shifters for a gear stick on autos if it had one that is.
Some cars do. Not this one though, it being a Japanese car and all.
You can't put it into park, that would destroy the tranny for sure. We are talking about putting it into neutral which you can normally do. Are you even reading the thread?
Brakes will cook very quickly when working against full engine power. The best thing you can do in the situation (assuming you can't get it in neutral) is to slam the brakes on as hard as possible as soon as possible. Gradual braking is absolutely sure to cook the brakes - the fluid won't normally boil, even under very hard use, but the pads burn up and the escaping gases force them away from the surface of the disc, massively reducing their effectiveness.
There are a fair few cars that won't let you accelerate against the brakes - my old 406 HDI would allow you to left foot brake for about half a second, and then it would completely cut all power. Seems like a fairly basic safety interlock if you're going to have a fly by wire throttle (you could quite easily cut the injector cycle / spark rather than throttle angle for the event of stepper motor failure).
note to self, must put car into neutral gear if it starts to race .
We’re in a Lexus. . . and we’re going north on 125 and our accelerator is stuck. . . we’re in trouble. . . there’s no brakes
I repeat
there’s no brakes
Folks. This isnt directly linked to the sticky accelerator pedal when cold or condensation. Its potentially a different problem.
This guy was a Highway Patrolman. RIP and have some respect for some of the comments hypothosising on what we would do.
She said there were no brakes but when under severe pressure people have a tendency not to be able to get the right words out.
PMSL
[i]So if you couldn't cut the ignition, you couldn't get it out of gear and your brakes had failed then what would you have done? Tell us oh Driving God?[/i]
molgrips - MemberYou can't put it into park, that would destroy the tranny for sure.
hmm tranny or your life! i wonder??
We are talking about putting it into neutral which you can normally do. Are you even reading the thread?
unfortunatly yes, seems like some people have no idea of mechanics
I have plenty of idea about mechanics thanks. I've never tried putting an auto under full load into neutral tho. Have you?
Oh and as for having no idea about mechanics... when you engage park it sticks a pawl like thing in the final drive I believe, which would cause either the pawl or the gears to break apart if you did it at speed.
lol well you wouldnt put the car into park function if you were speeding out of control?
hmm ok 😉
ofcourse no one has tried to put the car into neutral before because we are not in the situation 😉 but if i were i would break the car before i was
So if you couldn't cut the ignition, you couldn't get it out of gear and your brakes had failed then what would you have done? Tell us oh Driving God?
Hit the brakes as hard and sharp as possible (thus not allowing them the chance time to boil) and stuck it into the nearest available immovable object that wouldn't hurt anyone else whilst the car was still going slowly enough for no serious harm to be done.
Probably...
Are you into eugenics? Those who have less than stellar intelligence should die? Just thought I'd ask.
Not at all, though it would perhaps be a good answer to the worlds rapidly increasing population and lack of resources!!! 😉 (JOKE BTW, for those without a sense of humour!!!)
Seems odd about the brakes not being able to dissipate the car. I mean they can slow it from 70mph faster than you can accelerate to that speed.. so surely they should be more than a match?Confused.
Exactly what I was thinking too. 272bhp and 400Nm ish of torque can accelerate said vehicle to 60mph in approx 8 seconds, but the brakes will stop it from 60mph to a standstill in less than 3 seconds. Suggests to me that the brakes are capable of delivering torque far in excess of the engines capability.
molgrips - the brakes would have boiled. Bear in mind the brakes were trying to stop a 272bhp car weighing a couple of tons that was on full throttle. No contest sadly
It takes a fair length of time to boil the brakes on a car, certainly a lot longer than is required for a single stop from 60mph or so. On a trackday in my old Beemer, repeated slowing down from 120mph to 40mph or so, it took 4 laps before the brake pedal went long on a totally standard brake setup, on an almost equally as heavy car (BMW 5 series) with similar power output (286bhp in my case). Brakes don't boil THAT quickly! Unless they were perhaps being dragged and not stamped upon.
Brakes will cook very quickly when working against full engine power. The best thing you can do in the situation (assuming you can't get it in neutral) is to slam the brakes on as hard as possible as soon as possible. Gradual braking is absolutely sure to cook the brakes - the fluid won't normally boil, even under very hard use, but the pads burn up and the escaping gases force them away from the surface of the disc, massively reducing their effectiveness.
Agreed, though even though working against the engine, the brakes would still not boil instantly.
if it was a petrol engine with a vacuum servo on the brakes it wouldnt have any "servo" power as with the throttle wide open it wouldnt have manifold depression to power it .
Also a bit worrying is all these people out there who are driving with their foot to the floor.
Horrible way to go though.
Well, the Popular Mechanics website states that you actually can stop a car at full throttle in gear by pushing as hard as poss on the brake. The brakes are more powerfull than the engine, Sounds right to me unless your brakes are knackered.
This seems to make sense as cars are alpine tested with a load trailer down a very long downhill alpine pass with the handbrake on...repeatedly, till the brakes boil and then some. The cars brakes have to work in that situation otherwise you cant legally sell them.
Engine off, the brakes will work but with no servo assist (so the brake pedal will be harder) but also most cars will loose their power assisted steering in this situation. Handbarke will always work as its cable actualted. IIRC electronic handbrakes are on an emergency system so should be independant of the ignition.
If you're in a manual car the first best course of action is to stand on both the clutch and brake pedals as you retain brake servo, power steering etc. Had this happen to me a few years back in a car where the floormat moved forwards and got stuck over the accelerator...scary but easy to stop the car provided you stay calm.
Autos are a different issue but you still have some manual control over the gearbox. You should be able to at least change down, not sure about getting the car into Neutral under full load though but I cant believe that you cant...hmmm, can you crash change it?. If you cant it seems the best option there is to cut the ignition, stand on the brakes with both feet and pray.
Oddly enough a lot of uncontrolled acceleration incidents in the UK are due to people mistaking the accelerator for the brake, then pressing harder when they start going faster...
certainly a lot longer than is required for a single stop from 60mph
Whilst under full throttle? Maybe going downhill too? It clearly wasn't enough since evidence showed the brakes were applied. Would you only have applied PART brakes if you thought you were going to die due to excessive speed? I mean really.
What knottie said, anyway.
well i can see why he didn't knock it in to neutral ( even if it was a auto or a mmt gear box ) and as for no brakes i can't under stand why the epkb was not pumped or pull on . the artical is about the accelerator pedal under the carpet / mat and not a sticking issue , at lease toyota have been up front for there faults were as some manufactures arn't
The fact is that if you pussyfoot around at all - dabbing the brakes here and there whilst trying to get the pedal back up, you will exhaust the vacuum and the servo assist will go. I've braked cars with no servo vacuum on odd occasions, and it's very difficult even at walking pace.
Doing it against the engine would made no difference at all.
Didnt Toyota state the brakes are new/gas and a possibly faulty design?
I still think you can work the brakes pretty effectively with out the servo, sure you got to press a LOT harder, but they still work. Hell of a lot of cars out there of a certain age with the servos on the way out, its only a rubber diaphragm in most of them to my knowledge and that disintegrates with time and exposure to heat and petrochemicals.
I still think you can work the brakes pretty effectively with out the servo, sure you got to press a LOT harder, but they still work.
Yup, they work a bit, but I'm a 6'1 bloke who can squat more than twice my body weight and I can't overcome the automatic box and 3.5litre engine *at idle!* in my dads car when the servo isn't working (I've tried!).
well i can see why he didn't knock it in to neutral ( even if it was a auto or a mmt gear box )
You can't always knock the box into neutral - remember its the US so mostly auto, and most autos are just an electronic switch that tells the box a change is required, you can't force many things on a modern auto. If it were a manual I'm fairly sure a cop would have had the brains to press the clutch and knock it out of gear.
Keyless ignition designed to require 3seconds push when the car is moving before engine is stalled, this is deliberate and prevents your kids messing with stuff when your driving and causing a crash.
Gearbox on the lexus was of the non mechanical shift type, ie like the stupid i-drive BMW thing = confusing..
Dont understand why you would not be able to select "N" even under load as the gearbox requests torque from the engine relative to accel pedal and drivers gear selection. If you select "N" the gearbox should request a reduction in engine torque and speed limitataion, this would override the accel pedal input (no sane reason why this is not the case).
The most important question that is being missed so far is;
When we had a mechanical link between the driver and the throttle their was no capability to offer a safe failure mode to the driver should the throttle stick open.
Today with us having electronic engine / gearbox / braking control it is possible to offer a safe failure mode by comparing brake input to accel pedal, this can be done in a way that still allows left foot braking / track use but still gives the driver a way to slow the car.
Regardless of if the cause of your stuck accel pedal is the plastic in the pedal Or a footwell mat, or inadequate space around the pedal IT IS POSSIBLE to offer the driver a way of overriding the accel pedal.
Pressing the brake pedal with full effort in a +200bhp vehicle when at mway speed will only result in masssive brake fade. stalling the engine is bad as you then loose steering and brake assist, surely overriding the accel pedal is the way forward.
such a system may be found on a car/van having a certain german engine control units.
brake servos not as effective today as in the past, modern engines dont support much vac.
A modern automatic transmission will select neutral when the Neutral button/stick position is selected. Being on full load doesn't make a difference. I'm 99.999999% sure that the 'full load' element will not make a difference to older, non electronically controlled, planetary-auto transmissions too, but I don't know that as a fact. 😕 A 2009 model Lexus would not have an old style planetary-auto (i.e. non electronically controlled) however.
Of course there could have been other failures present on the car such as a faulty shift lever that could have stopped neutral being selected. If so, the driver would have been very unlucky to have suffered multiple failures.
My thoughts are with the family of the four. ****ing futile way to go.
On a sidenote, Toyota knew of a problem with the accelerator last year but probably protecting their 'brand' ...decided to wait. I hope they sleep well at night.