Crankboy - given the fact that he was a police officer attempting (or at least indending) to prevent a potential breach of the peace (and given the fact that there had been violence already, public order situation, etc.) then would not the fact that in his belief Tomlinson was obstructing the police come into play?
seems to me that, in a public order situation, reasonableness is a [u]very[/u] difficult area to judge, and spur of the moment belief, impression, difficulty of weighing exactly the appropriateness of an action, instinctivness of the action, and all sorts of factors are going to make that legality of the use of force argument really, really complex.
What's Tom said about it then? I bet him and Penelope must be bloody livid!!
I dont see the Chines bombing the crap out of other peoples countries! Like our wonderful western governments! o yea human rights, what about all those Iraqis.
Ask the Dalai Lama In the hills of Tibet how many monks did the chinese get?
What's Tom said about it then? I bet him and Penelope must be bloody livid!!
no idea lol 🙂
A question nobody else seems to have considered (apologies if I've missed it - skimmed a lot of the squabbling) - how can the plod get a fair trial given all the publicity? I mean you lot are deciding his guilt or innocence before the trial's even started.
Anyway.... this cult? Like that Tom Cruise religion thing? With the spaceships n stuff?
No, I think he means like Nick Clegg
oh, hang on, ....... as you were - I misread that
I dont see the Chines bombing the crap out of other peoples countries! Like our wonderful western governments! o yea human rights, what about all those Iraqis.
Ask the Dalai Lama In the hills of Tibet how many monks did the chinese get?
Not nearlly as many as we have kiled to get some free oil, also that has to be put in historical context it was at the hight of the cultural revolution. which was not a very good time for china in many ways. Howver both china and Tibet were ancient enemies how had been at war for Centuries etc. now compare that to iraqi its very diffrent, sevearl million have died in the past few years. Get over it the Western governments do evil things too.
different cult but same sort of thing, its evil and takes money of week people and its really racist.
Like the iDave Diet Foundation?
Thegreatape z11 , I think from the inquest reports unless something new comes up the causation defence is on very shaky ground and a jury would believe that the blow(s) caused the fall the fall caused internal bleeding the bleeding caused or contributed to death.
The more interesting argument will be around lawful/reasonable force on that, the video does the officer no favours the background of his conduct before his interaction with Tomlinson puts him in a difficult light but significantly read his evidence to the inquest (available on line) I have sat in court and listened to a defendant sink his own case when cross examined. Harwood will need to do a lot to gain the trust of a jury.
I forgot to issue a retraction earlier on previous threads on this topic i slagged off the officers around the incident for not stepping in or coming forward at the time. While obviously they did not step in and in part one can see why not they clearly did come forward at a very early stage which was the right thing to do and also in many ways brave even though i hope little bravery is now needed for an officer to speak up about his colleagues conduct.
Free oil? Have you seen the price of a cruise missile? Its truly shocking! You could get a bike for that!!!!
Binners that is quite a distateful thing you said. The chinese police can tell the difference or else they would just be indiscrimanantly shooting their own citizens when there is a protest ...oh hold on a minute ❗
As for tom Cruise are you suggesting he is hiding something in his closet ?
I'm still waiting for some actual evidence of the huge cover-up by the police? Other than a slightly retarded HOME OFFICE pathologist doing a shoddy job on the first PM? If you read the IPCC report and the coroners report you'd see that the police gathered huge amounts of evidence and information. How else do you think the CPS are in a position to charge him?
Now did anyone hear that story on the radio about Elvis shagging JFK at Roswell?
given the fact that he was a police officer [b]attempting (or at least indending) to prevent a potential breach of the peace [/b]
Really? Cos from the video footage, to me (and lots and lots of other people including top legal experts and that), it just looks like some violent thug in a police uniform assaulting an innocent man who was posing absolutely no threat whatsoever, and did not appear to be acting in breach of the peace in any way.
Send the killer down. Maximum sentence. And bring all those who lied to protect him to justice too.
We, as a society, cannot afford to have a police force which is seen to get away time after time with murder and unlawful killing of innocent people, as well as being seen as a corrupt and deeply flawed institution. Otherwise the whole institution of Law and Order is undermined and lacking in moral and social responsibility.
ilovemygears, thanks for registering on stw - this place hasn't been the same since AdamG and Lanesra were banned. You're just what this forum needs imo to counter the dull and boring lefties, and the Tories such as CaptainFlashheart and Woppit, who are clueless and completely incapable of arguing their corner. I look forward to many more posts from you.
I bet he isn't as good a fighter as lansera though?
Really? Cos from the video footage, to me (and lots and lots of other people including top legal experts and that), it just looks like some violent thug in a police uniform assaulting an innocent man who was posing absolutely no threat whatsoever, and did not appear to be acting in breach of the peace in any way
are these same group of legal experts that believe we should not be able to read things about losers in the news papers. The law is a ass, that guy was clearly getting in the way!
thanks 🙂ernie_lynch - Member
ilovemygears, thanks for registering on stw - this place hasn't been the same since AdamG and Lanesra were banned. You're just what this forum needs imo to counter the dull and boring lefties, and the Tories such as CaptainFlashheart and Woppit, who are clueless and completely incapable of arguing their corner. I look forward to many more posts from you
"that guy was clearly getting in the way!" i know you believe that swallowing the Chinese state propaganda whole counts as "thinking for yourself" but you really are a bit off on your own on that one. Not one of the officers on scene aside from Harwood thought Tomlinson was getting in the way .
well the copper admitted he did not see him as a threat. As for getting in the way he was trying to get home which as far as I know is not actually illegal. If he was hampering a copper carrying out his duties he could have arrested him ...odd the copper did not do this ..probably wanted to stay away from his van eh.
Whilst slagging off the west [ with some merit] this is not actually a defence of China's action but your defence seems to be entirely I went there and it were right nice. I need a little more convincing.
BTW, Beijing is a city in China, it's not China. What you saw may well not be representative...
And please, please try and use English in your posts. I'm struggling with the Chinglish you presumably picked up during your extensive travels in China.
ilovemygears - Memberthanks
No no .......thank you ! This place has become boring and stale with far too many sensible posts for my liking. What this place needs is someone to liven up the proceedings a little. And I really think that the guy who comes on here singing the praises of the Communist Party of China because of their apparently impressive ability to brutally crush all dissent, is the man to do it.
No really mate, I'm gobsmacked ...... even I, a committed and incorruptible Marxist-Leninist, couldn't lavish such unconditional praise on the self-serving brutal thugs which rule China......well done geezer 😀
And I really think that the guy who comes on here singing the praises of the Communist Party of China because of their apparently impressive ability to brutally crush all dissent, is the man to do it.
Hang on, weren't you proudly describing yourself as a 'tankie' the other day - doesn't that mean those that supported sending in the tanks to Hungary to crush dissidents?
no he was saying that was the insult used against him not that he really was one. He sia dhe liked the term though iirc.
You can call me a tankie of you want grum .......I don't mind* 8)
btw I'm not going to get dragged into an argument about China or Hungry on a thread about Ian Tomlinson.
EDIT : * But don't ever call me a Trot !
trot trot clippity clop
No no .......thank you ! This place has become boring and stale with far too many sensible posts for my liking. What this place needs is someone to liven up the proceedings a little. And I really think that the guy who comes on here singing the praises of the Communist Party of China because of their apparently impressive ability to brutally crush all dissent, is the man to do it.No really mate, I'm gobsmacked ...... even I, a committed and incorruptible Marxist-Leninist, couldn't lavish such unconditional praise on the self-serving brutal thugs which rule China......well done geezer
marx said democracy was a bourgeoisie dictatorship. There not crushing dissent there simply destroying counter revolutionaries.
No, it was Lenin who said that bourgeois democracy is in fact a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie, Marx spent 95% of his time waffling on about economics. Lenin also said that the highest form of democracy is the dictatorship of the proletariat - there's nothing wrong with democracy.
And if you really ain't trolling, then you've got a seriously ****ed-up head coming out with "not crushing dissent there simply destroying counter revolutionaries". I can't be arsed to comment more than that.
No, it was Lenin who said that bourgeois democracy is in fact a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie, Marx spent 95% of his time waffling on about economics. Lenin also said that the highest form of democracy is the dictatorship of the proletariat - there's nothing wrong with democracy.And if you really ain't trolling, then you've got a seriously ****ed-up head coming out with "not crushing dissent there simply destroying counter revolutionaries". I can't be arsed to comment more than that
lol i read Engels, what a load of shit, you do realise communism killed 100 million people in the 20th centuraty dont you, Lenin was a mass murder and a dictator. In my mind Marx is responsible for some of the worst crime in history. All i said was that China was a very nice place to visit and that maybe you should go see for you're self instead of believing the shit you see on the net and read in newspapers. The west does propaganda as well you know.
So what was Chairman Mao then?
Elfinsafety - Member
So what was Chairman Mao then?
A guy with a swimming pool 🙂
ilovemygears - Memberlol i read Engels
You're not the full ticket are you mate ?
ernie_lynch - Member
ilovemygears - Member
lol i read EngelsYou're not the full ticket are you mate ?
this is the internet you're taking it all very seriously ant you.
Christ what a load of utter PISH!!!!
This was about a cop who appears very much on the face of it to have over stepped the Mark by some degree, lost the rag and pushed a guy over, without any real justification. Guy has then sadly died.
Cop should face the criminal justice system and let a court decide his culpability. An earlier resolution to this might have helped preserve the reputation of the met a bit better?
But...
How the he'll did all this Chinese stuff start? And what in the hell raised the racism aspect?
Fer cry in out loud get a grip!
Edit, been watching this one for a bit, been trying so hard not to bite, but what the hell. Any posts by me is usually the kiss of death for the topic anyway 😥
Nickquinn293, not this time mate.
lol i read Engels, what a load of shit, you do realise communism killed 100 million people in the 20th centuraty dont you, Lenin was a mass murder and a dictator. In my mind Marx is responsible for some of the worst crime in history. All i said was that China was a very nice place to visit and that maybe you should go see for you're self instead of believing the shit you see on the net and read in newspapers.
has it escaped your notice that the nice place China is in fact communist?
I dont know why I replied you seem perfectly capable of beating your own argument without any help
I dont think we take it that serious but is it to much to ask that what you say is at least based on either reality or logic?
I hear Libya is nice at this time of year.
Someone did mention they've had a spot of bother there of late. But, at the end of the day, that's probably just crap spouted by the western propaganda machine. I'm going to go and have a look for myself
I dont think we take it that serious but is it to much to ask that what you say is at least based on either reality or logic?
JY I said earlier that hjis grasp of logic was poor and he was an effing prick. I challenge anyone to prove me wrong. Don't give him anymore oxygen, I suggest just insulting the moron until he goes away.
Try Syria, lots of local colour
Ps crank boy, thanks, feel a bit less paranoid now!
No i dont read the Daily Mail or the Guardian, i think for my self.
Not much evidence of it, TBH. Anyone who seriously suggests China as a role model for law and order can most charitably be described as "naive".
[url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/search?q=china+execution&target=guardian ]http://www.guardian.co.uk/search?q=china+execution&target=guardian[/url]
lol i read Engels, what a load of shit, you do realise communism killed 100 million people in the 20th centuraty dont you, Lenin was a mass murder and a dictator. In my mind Marx is responsible for some of the worst crime in history. All i said was that China was a very nice place to visit and that maybe you should go see for you're self instead of believing the shit you see on the net and read in newspapers.has it escaped your notice that the nice place China is in fact communist?
I dont know why I replied you seem perfectly capable of beating your own argument without any help
I dont think we take it that serious but is it to much to ask that what you say is at least based on either reality or logic?
did i ever say i was a communist? nope i did not. China is a communist country, which was put me off, but after seeing it i thought very differently. Thats the point i was making. That you should not believe what you see in news papers etc but instead what you have experienced for you self. China may be a communist country but not in the Western seance. like i said go see for ur self. I still think both Engels and Marx were full of shit, but it does not stop china being a good country. Yet again the White western man thinks he has the god given right to tell people on the other side of the world how to live. Ever noticed the Chines never tell us how to run our country, but we feel we have the right to tell them how to run theirs. What right in hell do we have to force our morals on people that live on the other side of the world. You just modern day missionary's, determined to force you 'superior' views on people in other cultures. i couldn't give a **** what lower middle class guardian readers think of me.
You do realise that if you lived in your beloved China, you wouldn't be allowed to [s]post[/s]hold the kind of views about the regime as you have about our evil western regimes.
MSP - Member
You do realise that if you lived in your beloved China, you wouldn't be allowed to posthold the kind of views about the regime as you have about our evil western regimes.
we as it is their country that is their right!
no its not their right, they don't get to choose or even debate it.
did i ever say i was a communist? nope i did not
Did I say you were a communist? I pointe dout you were praising a communist country despite hating communism ...ie your view was contradictory
China may be a communist country but not in the Western seance.
WTF doe sthat even mean?
Ever noticed the Chines never tell us how to run our country,
so when they visited here they did not tell us to stop the protests about Tibet then as a condition of visiting?
but we feel we have the right to tell them how to run theirs.
We are telling them to uphold human rights not what to do with the country
What right in hell do we have to force our morals on people that live on the other side of the world.
Because universal human rights are universal
You just modern day missionary's, determined to force you 'superior' views on people in other cultures.
coughs TIBET coughs
Because universal human rights are universal
They used to say that about Christianity.
