the Welsh.... want to govern themselves.
No, we really don't. Wales only has 3 nationalist MPs. We'd be stuffed without all your lovely English tax payers.
Because any way you cut it, they now hold 56 seats, which is enough to sway the voting on any contentious bill.
That would be nice, but I disagree, any time there's a contentious bill that the SNP could influence you'll hear that Tory whip cracking from up in Shetland.
Big Eck will get some TV time for a few months until the media realise that they're a total irrelevance and then there'll be nothing from them for a few years.
You know somethings not right when theres a party on the streets of Glasgow to celebrate an election where the tories won, the reality will hit home by the end of the year.
People complain about Two Party Politics, but give them a third (or fourth?) party and they complain about that too.
I'm of the view that having more parties, and more differing views, represented in parliament is a good thing.
Realistically what other option was there hagi?
We should have all voted Tory, that way we'd have won.
With Miliband out, Labour cannot repeat such a pitiful campaign and will probably spend the next five years building a party people in Scotland can actually vote for again, then it's game over SNP.
PMSL - Labour will repeat the mistakes because the arrogance of Westmonster will keep them concentrating on focus groups and marketing and not the electorate
With Miliband out, Labour cannot repeat such a pitiful campaign and will probably spend the next five years building a party people in Scotland can actually vote for again, then it's game over SNP.
Milliband might be out but Murphy is staying on.
I'm in total agreement with you GrahamS, FPTP sucks and needs replaced. Hopefully this kicks the erse of politics and gains some traction for that to happen. But its not a time for anyone to celebrate or be happy (unless you happen to be a Tory), especially not the SNP, as this is possibly the worst outcome for them!
No one. Just the same as if Scotland has voted Labour instead.
That`s what I do not agree with - not because of the outcome/numbers
But because of the run up to the election - the influence of the polls and media speculating about a coalition outcome with SNP in influence gave the impression of a turbulent and unstable adversarial coalition/alliance
- something the voters south of the border were driven to vote against by choosing Ukip/Conservative. (LibDem outcasts due to coalition sacrifice)
I just feel that Scotland is now a one part state with no government influence.
I suppose its up to the SNP to deliver now .
something the voters south of the border were driven to vote against by choosing Ukip/Conservative.
If Labour and ex-LibDem voters in the south were so frightened of a coalition with the SNP that they'd rather vote Tory then they only have themselves to blame!
Trying to put that blame on the SNP is bizarre.
Do you want multi-party politics or not?
er -yes - would be nice in Scotland??
Hasn't Scotland just saved itself from massive welfare cuts. Surely benefits will be devolved to Scots gov before Tories drop the axe across UK else there will be no Tory MSP come 2016?
er -yes - would be nice in Scotland??
Something like this you mean?
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I believe Milliband had a fairly left wing agenda when he was made party leader. He would IMO have been better sticking to anti austerity policies with the idea of Britain spending it's way out of recession; investment in jobs, industry + services, more jobs, more tax receipts etc...Britain does stand alone a bit in the world with the belief that cutting spending is going to improve your economy. Instead, Ed tried to be the party that cut spending but in a "nicer" way than the Tories.
Scottish voters could vote for a party that has competent politicians with credible left wing intentions. I don't get any sense of a "surge in nationalism" in Scotland, just people fed up with 36 years of Adam Smith Institute economics.
Hasn't Scotland just saved itself from massive welfare cuts. Surely benefits will be devolved to Scots gov before Tories drop the axe across UK else there will be no Tory MSP come 2016?
Questionable - the beauty for the Scots government, as we heard in the independence campaign, is that the current arrangement lets them take the credit for every pound spent, and blame every ounce of austerity on Westminster as owners of the magic money tree. That's why they have never used their own tax raising powers (which would become a tartan tax overnight)
If they are handed fiscal independence, then they have to raise their own money, and every pound spent becomes another pound they have to raise in taxes from the good people of Scotland.
People hate their elected politicians imposing austerity - They hate them imposing tax rises even more.
The day Scottish income tax rates are a penny higher than their English neighbours, the SNP's advantage is gone!
I am not blaming the SNP - I blame the media and the electorate - they always get it wrong!
Lets see what the SNP deliver for all of us.
They hate them imposing tax rises even more.
There's no proof of that. As soon as they got back in power after the 2010 general election the Tories promptly put up VAT, very little fuss was created.
That's why they have never used their own tax raising powers
they have never used them because they have to increase them across the board they cannot just tax the rich or adjust the threshold.
if they increase the top rate by 10 p then they also have to increase the bottom rate and middle rates by 10p
You know this as we have done it before so I am not sure why you have repeated it. They are not free to set tax as they please.
Having been proved wrong, he will fail to respond to your reply but will no doubt bring it up, erroneously, again at a later date.
Yes yes, Junky, they can go on forever giving us excuses and justifications of why it was impossible
But we all know the political reality and cost for any party responsible for imposing a tartan tax!
I have followed this thread with some interest, the thing I like about this forum is you get a very wide ranging view on subjects from all corners/opinions and it tends to be (most of the time) a fairly balanced and sensible take on stuff. However the problem we now have (and it's a big ****ing problem) is that the Labour Party is not going to form a government for a long time (please note I am a socialist at heart but could not vote for the current labour party as they are simply incompetent Tories) so we will have a Tory government in power for a very long time (don't whine on about small majorities - one seat is enough to swing a vote) this means if you are poor, unemployed or live in certain regions (or work in the public sector) you are ****ed - Osbourne has a big overdraft to sort out and he and his party are not going to
We're so lucky in Scotland to have a credible left of centre party.
I expect that left leaning people in the rest of the UK are pretty envious of that.
I'd rather we didn't have a left or right of anything party. I'd rather have democratically elected administrators than politicians.
We should be governed by technical competence in delivering the best results for society. Not ****y politics.
What you speak of piemonster is not people.
there is also tax bands to consider, as soon as you start changing and adjusting bands etc, it becomes difficult to hold straight comparisons.ernie_lynch - Member
They hate them imposing tax rises even more.
There's no proof of that. As soon as they got back in power after the 2010 general election the Tories promptly put up VAT, very little fuss was created.
There's also never been any mechinism to collect the extra tax separately, I think it's changing now, but hmrc hasn't had the separate databases to be able to spilt the extra cash collected and it would all just go into uk coffers. As far as I remember, it was something like that anyhow.Junkyard - lazarus
That's why they have never used their own tax raising powersthey have never used them because they have to increase them across the board they cannot just tax the rich or adjust the threshold.
if they increase the top rate by 10 p then they also have to increase the bottom rate and middle rates by 10p
You know this as we have done it before so I am not sure why you have repeated it. They are not free to set tax as they please.
Actually, they kept the Seperate databases in place up until 2007 and in 2010 the SNP decided not to pay to update it...
SVR would raise about £300 million per penny, so that's a potential billion quid a year less austerity.
Now, of course the big defence for not doing it is how much would it cost to get this up and running - what a good question...
Just remember how according to the SNP during the referendum campaign the set up costs for the [b]entirety[/b] of an independent Scotland were just £200 million 😆
tbh I dunno, I've never looked all that much into it, I know it's not a particularly widing ranging power though. That it's never been used by any incumbent government is evidence that it's never really been a well thought out power anyhow. tbh simply being able to raise or lower a simple rate is some way away from the type of tax reform that would be desireable to implement imo. I'd imagine for any powers to be useful you would need to be allowed to get alot more complex about it.
It's not just about raising a few extra quid that is the aim.
ninfan - Member😆
You regularly use the laughing emoticon at the end of your posts Z-11, a habit which along with your incoherent posts you seem to uniquely share with Chewwy.
Now it doesn't appear to me to be the best way to influence people or win them over to your argument.
It's almost as if point-scoring and taunting is the only thing which you can reasonably expect to achieve.
If so can I congratulate you on your realistic and self-critical appraisal of your own limited powers of persuasion.
I'm all for giving the Peoples Republic of Sturgikistan full fiscal autonomy and removing all state subsidy from south of the border then sitting back and hearing the squeals from the Scottish electorate when their taxes go up to pay for the socialist utopia they clearly have voted for. But perhaps I'm wrong and the fantasists on here may actually be right and the Scots will relish paying Scandinavian levels of tax for Scandinavian levels of benefits but we'll never know unless we give it a try and the rest of the UK pull the plug on them.
Uponthedowns....now you're talking my language.
When do the English get to vote on jettisoning Scotland?
I'm all for giving the Peoples Republic of Sturgikistan full fiscal autonomy and removing all state subsidy from south of the border then sitting back and hearing the squeals from the Scottish electorate when their taxes go up to pay for the socialist utopia they clearly have voted for.
The Guardian described Sturgeon’s support for full fiscal autonomy as an [i]"eye-watering"[/i] blunder which [i]"puts the SNP on the Tory side of a key devolution argument"[/i]. Quote :
[i]Full fiscal autonomy means that what the Scottish government spends, the Scottish government raises. Apart from that, Ms Sturgeon’s government has no money, since it refuses to use its tax-raising powers. That’s why the SNP is already putting on the squeeze. Local councils are running into debt partly as the price of the SNP’s council tax freeze, which has greatly benefited the wealthiest. Scottish students are having to borrow at record levels as grants are reduced and tuition remains free, even to the rich. The NHS is enduring big funding shortfalls.
As the Institute for Fiscal Studies argues, fiscal autonomy also means that £7.6bn currently provided to Ms Sturgeon’s government by UK taxpayers would be switched off. All these gaps would either have to be made good by higher Scottish taxes or by deeper Scottish cuts. Scotland’s link with the UK pension system would be ended. And all at a time when the price of oil has collapsed.
There is no disputing that thousands of Scots have embraced the SNP in the hope that it represents a more dynamic and vernacular progressivism than Labour offers. But is this progressivism credible? To what degree is it frustrated separatism in progressive clothing?
The question facing Scottish voters in May is whether the hard facts and options square with the SNP rhetoric on full fiscal autonomy. Scottish Labour’s Jim Murphy said on Friday that it is a slogan that has collided with some truths. It is hard to disagree – or to overestimate the importance of the big call it poses. Progressive voters outside Scotland need Scots to get this big call right. But Scots themselves need it even more.[/i]
It's rare for me to agree so strongly with a Guardian editorial but in this case I reckon they got it spot on. As did Labour in their criticism of the SNP's lack of joined-up thinking.
Having said that I believe that the SNP's wipe out of Labour in Scotland is the most positive aspect of the 2015 General Election.
But Scotland needs to move beyond emotive pleas of fairness and grasp reality. The SNP needs to put money where their rhetoric is. It needs to offer a real economic alternative to the failed neoliberal experiment. Something which up until now they have comprehensively failed to do, and I suspect that it is almost certainly beyond their grasp. They are ultimately a nationalist party selling dreams and not a great deal more imo.
How are they going to do that when they are fully paid up members? 😆It needs to offer a real economic alternative to the failed neoliberal experimen
Hence my comment : I suspect that it is almost certainly beyond their grasp. They are ultimately a nationalist party selling dreams and not a great deal more imo.
Personally, I've absolutely no doubt in what they are, I never have been, they are a centrist party dangling a few bobbles.
They are still much preferable to the utterly incompetent excuse for a labour party, and a thousand times more palatable than the tories.
Roll of full fiscal autonomy(which is ultimately independence imo.)
But Scotland needs to move beyond emotive pleas of fairness and grasp reality. The SNP needs to put money where their rhetoric is.
We've come from different starting points and reached the same conclusion. I'd just rather the SNP use the Scottish voters' money for their economic alternative rather than mine and the rest of the UK taxpayers. I'm prepared to concede they might make it work but without generating the economic base to pay for it (and please no cries of Maggie destroyed it- that's ancient history now and besides no modern economy depends on making steel and digging coal except maybe Australia) for which I've not heard a coherent plan I rather think it will end in tears.
uponthedowns - Member
But Scotland needs to move beyond emotive pleas of fairness and grasp reality. The SNP needs to put money where their rhetoric is.
We've come from different starting points and reached the same conclusion. I'd just rather the SNP use the Scottish voters' money for their economic alternative rather than mine and the rest of the UK taxpayers. I'm prepared to concede they might make it work but without generating the economic base to pay for it (and please no cries of Maggie destroyed it- that's ancient history now and besides no modern economy depends on making steel and digging coal except maybe Australia) for which I've not heard a coherent plan I rather think it will end in tears.
The SNPs ultimate plan for independence will be incredibly simple imo, undercut England.
I'd just rather the SNP use the Scottish voters' money for their economic alternative rather than mine and the rest of the UK taxpayers.
I disagree. Investing in Scotland would benefit the whole of the UK. Austerity, maintaining economic inequality, unaffordable housing, unemployment, spunking money on trident replacement, lack of training and opportunities for young people, privatisation, in work benefits, etc, is bad for the whole of the UK.
Neoliberalism has not delivered on the promises. Which is precisely why Scotland has firmly rejected the Conservatives, Labour, and the Liberal Democrats. And why voters in the rest of the UK are so thoroughly disillusioned with politics.
An alternative for Scotland would be a step forward for the rest of the UK.
Do you think a real alternative is going to present itself in a neatly packaged white paper ready for the electorate to sign off on?ernie_lynch - MemberAn alternative for Scotland would be a step forward for the rest of the UK.
I don't believe that is possible, there needs to be some upheaval and a new type of politics will need to form.
It's interesting times coming up, as with the SNPs surge in popularity in memebership, and now votes, it'll be a task to hold that all together, long term, short term they will(ie this westminster term), they are fairly disciplined.
But the most interesting thing for me is what opposition dynamic will develop at holyrood next year, as if Labour don't understand that the connection to the UK party is toxic and break away, they are utterly finished. I would like to see an independent SLP develop though.
In that context, there are alot of seats up for grabs, but I personally would really like the Greens to fill that void as much as possible(if they can't in this climate they are as well as chucking it.)
What that then gives Scotland is a completely different dynamic from westminsters centre right politics. We then have genuine centre Left politics to start to work with, and we can see what that develops.
I agree an alternative for Scotland is good for the UK or rUK, if a genuine alternative does present itself, the constitution won't matter a jot.
It's absurd to blame Scots for a Tory government when they voted for the SNP and the English/Welsh voted for the Tories. Even if every Scottish seat was Labour, the Tories would still have won.
The test of the SNP is what they do with their seats, they can claim to represent Scotland but Scotland is only a very small part of the UK with on 4 of the 46 million voters.
Do you think a real alternative is going to present itself in a neatly packaged white paper ready for the electorate to sign off on?
You appear to have completely missed my point. I need to work on making myself clearer.
I wonder to what extent the televised leaders debate influenced the result.
She came across very well and as a party leader who'd give dave a hard time.
I wonder to what extent the televised leaders debate influenced the result.
She came across very well and as a party leader who'd give [s]dave[/s] Ed a hard time
chickenman - Member
I believe Milliband had a fairly left wing agenda when he was made party leader.
No really.
He would IMO have been better sticking to anti austerity policies with the idea of Britain spending it's way out of recession; investment in jobs, industry + services, more jobs, more tax receipts etc...Britain does stand alone a bit in the world with the belief that cutting spending is going to improve your economy.
So are we spending more than we earn at the moment or the other way round? How about the socialists in Brazil just for starters?
Instead, Ed tried to be the party that cut spending but in a "nicer" way than the Tories.
Scottish voters could vote for a party that has competent politicians with credible left wing intentions. I don't get any sense of a "surge in nationalism" in Scotland, just people fed up with 36 years of Adam Smith Institute economics.
And so voted for the only party seriously proposing ASI policies during the referendum debate. Have we airbrushed the idea of no lender of last resort. And a party that wants a corporation tax war with rUK. So left wing??
And not a smiley in sight in the original post!!! 😯
Have we airbrushed the idea of no lender of last resort. And a party that wants a corporation tax war with rUK. So left wing??
Did you miss the result of the referendum? You been asleep?
