[Closed] This Scottish Business

[quote=Berm Bandit said]
3) The impact on the rest of us: The penny has only just dropped as to why Call me Dave is so keen on the referendum. i.e. if they go so will a large number of Labour MP's, and it will profoundly change the future shape of the UK Politics...... in his favour surprisingly.

CMD doesn't want the union split up.

STW Disclaimer: I know, he's evil and is lying, yadda yadda...

This will not end well.

Some expat discussion on this recently went along the lines of the snp have been like a student with a credit card. Give them a couple of years and it's another Greece.

Are France and Germany not independent because they share a currency?

Gerrymandering on a vast scale. CMD gets away with the big one....maybe.

how come we don't all get a vote?

Because it's not the UK (Westminster) government organising the referendum Graham. In the same way a broader referendum that voted in favour of independence would benefit the Tories by disposing of a whole bunch of Labour MPs in one fell swoop, Salmond is similarly hoping that by allowing only those north of the border to vote he can get the result he wants.

On an another note, by a strange quirk, despite being an Englishman, I'll get to vote in the referendum as I now reside in Scotland, unlike those Scots who live in England. Which does seem a bit strange to me that for whatever reason, a whole bunch of people who [i]may[/i] vote in Salmond's favour are being excluded...

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BB,

I think (1) is an understatement and actually reflects how poorly thought out the SNPs policies are. It's worse than merely tying in. It's giving up control over monetary ploy which will be set according to the interests of the rest of the UK not Scotland. Bizarre thinking and contradictory.

This thread is beginning to look like a Timber Old Timer's thread so far! Hi Dave...how's thing with you?

On an another note, by a strange quirk, despite being an Englishman, I'll get to vote in the referendum as I now reside in Scotland, unlike those Scots who live in England. Which does seem a bit strange to me that for whatever reason, a whole bunch of people who may vote in Salmond's favour are being excluded...

No, that makes perfect sense - you live here, you get a say. People who don't live here don't get a say. It's the fairest way to do it, otherwise you get into complicated discussions on what being "Scottish" really means, and what percentage Scottish you have to be to have a say.

On an another note, by a strange quirk, despite being an Englishman, I'll get to vote in the referendum as I now reside in Scotland, unlike those Scots who live in England. Which does seem a bit strange to me that for whatever reason, a whole bunch of people who may vote in Salmond's favour are being excluded...

That Nicola Sturgeon was on R4 this morning tying herself in knots over Sterling.

They've clearly realised that their policy on currency makes absolutely no sense, and they're hoping that if they just blather enough that no-one will notice.

That's probably why their report is so enormous as well - never mind the quality, feel the weight.

EDIT: they should just say that if all else fails, they will setup a new currency. At least then they would be credible.

how come we don't all get a vote?

I've been asking that one too, but still haven't heard a decent answer!

Independence for Scotlandshire, eh?

OK, off you toddle. Toodle-pip. 😉

complicated discussions on what being "Scottish" really means

How does the that work with the Scots who are overseas and get to vote then?

1) Currency: they want to keep the pound as is.

2) Votes: How come jocks living anywhere in the world can vote except those living in the UK outside of Scotland? i.e. someone in Beijing can but someone in Birmingham can't ...... whats that about?

3) The impact on the rest of us: The penny has only just dropped as to why Call me Dave is so keen on the referendum. i.e. if they go so will a large number of Labour MP's, and it will profoundly change the future shape of the UK Politics.

I think the main impact on us all will be the price rises of shortbread and whisky .

Having said that,whatever way it goes,I am sure it will all be fine.

HTH

One thing I do know is that at some point the Westminster Gov. will meddle with the Barnett Formula - and I do not trust them not to do a Maggie Thatcher on Scotland...

Oh, that's a certainty - the ConDem-dominated Local Government Association has already said that they want Barnett scrapped, and various a Welsh politicians are jumping on that too. Vote No, and the punishment for daring to oppose Westminster begins.

While we're talking about money, what about the £120M that the EU gave for Scottish farmers that Westminster has just pinched? Even Scottish Tories think that should go to Scotland.

I've been asking that one too, but still haven't heard a decent answer!

Do you live in Scotland? No? Then why on earth should you have a say on it?

How does the that work with the Scots who are overseas and get to vote then?

I thought ex-pats were being excluded?

the more I see that Westminster is not in touch with this place and how to run it.

I don't think they have much idea what is going on anywhere outside London and care even less. On the local news last night Vince Cable was portrayed doing the rounds of off-shore wind farms off the East coast. He said he was shocked to hear that the turbines were not made in the UK. How astounding is that?

Extending the Scottish independence argument on the premise that the Gov't are out of touch could arguably be taken to the provinces. Resurrection of the Dane Law Graham? I'd vote for you!

The bit I don't get is why so many English people are anti-independence - usually the same people who make comments about "sweaty Jocks". Is it an inferiority complex thing? Scotland should go down with the sinking ship?

Berm Bandit - Member

1) Currency: they want to keep the pound as is. Surely this ties them into the UK in the most profound way by inextricably linking their economy to the rest of us, which is surely why they want independance in the first place isn't it??

I think the entire Eurozone will be surprised to hear they're basically one country.

Our economies will always be tied- in fact, for the forseeable future they'll be essentially the same. They'll diverge over time no doubt but it'll be a long time (if ever) before there's any fundamental divides and over that sort of timescale, there's room for further change.

I mentioned this in another thread but it bears repeating, the supposed downsides of retaining the pound (in whichever form) is that Scotland ends up using a currency that's run from England with little regard to the Scottish economy. So, the same as it is today then. To be told we should fear change because the worst case scenario is that we end up with the status quo is eye-opening...

comments about "sweaty [s]Jocks[/s]socks"

FTFY

I lived for 6 years in Scotland. There was a distinct minority who were very anti-English. I saw discrimination against English people in the workplace.

The Scots of the Central Belt who hang on to some "Braveheart" view of independence with a 2nd Celtic Tiger economy are deluded.

Even the loss of the MoD/Faslane jobs will have a massive effect. Good secure jobs, with pensions etc. replaced with call centres and warehousing.

The very fact that some people south of the border seem to think that they should have the right to have a vote on whether they want Scotland to remain part of the UK, is a very salient part of the reason Scotland should try to escape from Englands colonialist attitude to all other nations.

It's also interesting that expert opinion seems to have shifted towards the idea that an independent Scotland would still have a seat at the table with Sterling - it could well be a condition of Scotland taking a share of the national debt.

The very fact that some people south of the border

Racist 😛

Maybe they will bail us out like the banks? 😉

The bit I don't get is why so many English people are anti-independence

Well, there's the fact that we will probably be doomed to a Tory government forever. That's quite a biggie.

the more I see that Westminster is not in touch with this place and how to run it.

Same applies to everywhere outside the home counties. Scotland actually already gets a much better deal than the north of England, for example.

I'm still voting yes btw

If only to get away from the Conservatives

2) Votes: How come jocks living anywhere in the world can vote except those living in the UK outside of Scotland? i.e. someone in Beijing can but someone in Birmingham can't ...... whats that about?

I don' think that is right is it? If it is it will be so our great Scottish patriot, Sir Sean Connery can be flown back from tax exile and wheeled out during the independence campaign to wave a flag for 'Schotland'

 

The Great Leader

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[url= https://twitter.com/bbcnickrobinson/status/405259790903156736/photo/1 ]Twitter Feed Nick Robinson[/url]

If only to get away from the Conservatives

But instead be like Ireland, awesome choice dude.

Genuine Q so dont kill me, What about education fees and the NHS and social security funding?
Personally I'm not that bothered either way but is it actualy proper independence or semi independence?
Forgive me if that's a bit thick...

Scotland actually already gets a much better deal than the north of England, for example.

Resurrection of the Dane Law Graham? I'd vote for you!

By his own admission, not a natural East Anglian, would he be allowed to have a part in an independent Anglia...?!

Living in Elgin these days John, currently doing a monthly commute from there to Surrey, until Christmas, then the 12 month countdown to discharge begins - hurrah!

I've been asking that one too, but still haven't heard a decent answer!

Do you live in Scotland? No? Then why on earth should you have a say on it?

Presumably those who ask that question do so because independence would have a significant effect on the rest of the countries of the union. Whether that's a legitimate basis to include the whole of the UK or not is another question, but hey, let's face it this is all about vested interests - those of Salmond and those of Cameron...

How does the that work with the Scots who are overseas and get to vote then?

I thought ex-pats were being excluded?

Ex-pats are not excluded - check the Electoral Commission website. Presumably the defintion of Scottishness allowing somebody to vote would be based on birthplace or some other simple criteria, but probably not...

What about education fees

Well, if Scotland was independent then students from down south wouldn't have to pay fee's like they do now as they'd be part of Europe and so get a free ride there.

he NHS

The NHS in Scotland is already run separate from the NHS England. I suspect not a lot would change and the two sides would just bill each other for any care services used on the other side of the border. If that can't be worked out you'd still be covered by the standard type of agreement that stands between the rest of Europe as it does now.

grum - Member

Well, there's the fact that we will probably be doomed to a Tory government forever. That's quite a biggie.

IIRC there were only 2 elections since the war that were decided by the scottish vote? (plus the last one which I think would have been a Tory win outright, though tbh that'd make no actual difference since the Lib Dems all turned out to be tories in disguise)

The other side of this is that labour pitch at the whole country whereas the Tories have become pretty much an English party with a small interest in Wales and bugger all in Scotland. Take away Scotland and Labour could change their message and target the rest of the uk better.

It's giving up control over monetary ploy which will be set according to the interests of the rest of the UK not Scotland.

Unlike the current system where the monetary policy is set according to the interests of London you mean?

But instead be like Ireland, awesome choice dude.

A risk worth taking tbh

I dont think ex-pats living abroad do have a vote?

This is the criteria i think.

-British citizens resident in Scotland.
-Qualifying Commonwealth citizens resident in Scotland.
-Citizens of EU countries resident in Scotland.
-Members of the House of Lords resident in Scotland.
-Service/Crown personnel serving in the UK or overseas in the Armed Forces or with Her Majesty’s Government who are registered to vote in Scotland.

Seems fair enough. An English person choosing to live in Scotland ought to have a greater say in the direction the country goes than a Scot who has chosen to live elsewhere, either in England or overseas. That doesnt make them lesser Scots just that voting rights should be based on residency rather than ethnicity.

I'm Scottish but live in Wales. It would be stupid to give me a vote.

I'm Scottish but live in Wales. It would be stupid to give me a vote.

It would be stupid to give you anything sharp. 😀

But instead be like Ireland, awesome choice dude.

The same Ireland that's actually doing pretty well now, with a higher GDP per capita than the UK?

Yeah, that would be awesome, dude.

If I lived in Scotland I'd vote 'yes'.

But as I don't, I think independance would marginalise the North, Wales & NI even further whilst shifting UK politics further to the right.

So I really hope the answer is 'no'.

The very fact that some people south of the border seem to think that they should have the right to have a vote on whether they want Scotland to remain part of the UK, is a very salient part of the reason Scotland should try to escape from Englands colonialist attitude to all other nations

So something which will have a very real impact on the lives of everyone living both north and south of the border in numerous and probably many unseen ways, and where the ethnicity of those people both north and south of the border is inextricably intertwined should be decided by a minority which is selected by those with a vested interest in one particular outcome? Is that about it?

Personally, I'd love to see total electoral reform throughout the UK, with much more emphasis on devolved powers. Really good thinking in my view, but I'm completely unconvinced by the Scottish situation, seems to me its being done for some very dubious reasons.

So I really hope the answer is 'no'.

I can see why, and in some ways I feel guilty that we'd drop you in it. I guess the hope is, with losing 1/3 of it's land area, a significant percentage of GDP, and probably it's nuclear weapons, the rUK might get a sharp shock and actualy do something about becoming more Eurpoean and less American in outlook.

Also, the example of a successful independent Scotland might help with regional assemblies.

a minority which is selected by those with a vested interest in one particular outcome?

People who live in Scotland will be able to vote yes or no. The "vested interest" is we actually live in the country in question.

Or do you think you should have a say in US elections too?

The bit I don't get is why so many English people are anti-independence - usually the same people who make comments about "sweaty Jocks". Is it an inferiority complex thing?

hexhamstu - Member
I'm Scottish but live in Wales. It would be stupid to give me a vote

So should that not be Scottish/Welsh/OncelivedinHexhamStu?

I'm going to be interested to read the white paper and see the detail of the economic arguments, it will at least have more substance than the no campaign's scaremongering - mobile roaming charges in the borders anyone?

I'll be voting yes and frankly I'd still vote yes if it guaranteed that I'd lose my job and took 10 years off my life. It's not overtly oppressive in the way it once was but ideologically the UK means nothing to me. I grew up in Aberdeen, closer to Oslo than London, and not just in distance.

OP, referring to us as jocks isn't great way of engaging us in debate TBH.

'll be voting yes and frankly I'd still vote yes if it guaranteed that I'd lose my job and took 10 years off my life.

What an odd thing to say. Why on earth would you do that?

Because that's how much independence means to me. It's about the only thing I'd put above personal gain.

Aberdeen, closer to Oslo than London, and not just in distance

Aberdeen doesn't really reflect the rest of Scotland does it?

slowjo - Member
the more I see that Westminster is not in touch with this place and how to run it.
I don't think they have much idea what is going on anywhere outside London and care even less.

Exactly the point made by John Harris in yesterdays Guardian.

[url= http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/25/vote-scotland-grab-chance-secession ]The debate so far shows there's potential for at least one part of these islands to reject the consensus and seek something better
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I'd definitely vote yes. As a (very disaffected) northerner, its obvious the politics of Westminster, whichever party is in power, now serves the interests of absolutely no-one outside the capital and the South East. The rest of us are utterly irrelevant, and are becoming more an more so at a rate of knots.

Its alright saying, from Daves point of view,, independence would be great. He gets an eternal hegemony. But in reality, if Scotland went its own way, and the north was doomed to eternal Tory rule from a even remoter Westminster, do you think that the populations of Manchester, Sheffield, Leeds, Newcastle, Sunderland and Liverpool would just shrug, and say 'oh well' and just accept that?

Of course they bloody wouldn't!!! If Scotland goes, then who else is going to be looking for the Exit? Pretty much everyone outside the gilded South East, I reckon. Scottish independence would start a domino effect that would lead who-knows-where

I'm all for it!!!

Of course they bloody wouldn't!!! If Scotland goes, then who else is going to be looking for the Exit? Pretty much everyone outside the gilded South East, I reckon. Scottish independence would start a domino effect that would lead who-knows-whet

You are joking aren't you? This cannot be serious?

There's an awful lot I'd be prepared to put up with for a 'No Tory Government' guarantee.

If only we could shift the border south a little - Deansgate in Manchester would be perfect.

Aberdeen doesn't really reflect the rest of Scotland does it?

I'd say it reflects it rather better than London, Birmingham or Manchester. What's your point?

One of the other reasons it doesn't sit well with me is I don't really like nationalism, in any form. Saying 'our country is great' generally seems inextricably linked with 'compared to all those other countries that we are superior to'.

For some people being a proud Scot seems quite tied up with resentment towards the English.

Having said that if I was Scottish I reckon I'd vote yes. I think realistically some sort of 'Devo Max' would actually be the best outcome for most people though.

Or do you think you should have a say in US elections too?

That's a pretty poor analogy.

Its alright saying, from Daves point of view,, independence would be great. He gets an eternal hegemony. But in reality, if Scotland went its own way, and the north was doomed to eternal Tory rule from a even remoter Westminster, do you think that the populations of Manchester, Sheffield, Leeds, Newcastle, Sunderland and Liverpool would just shrug, and say 'oh well' and just accept that?

Yes I think they would. We don't have enough of a distinct culture/identity to go it alone - really can't see that ever happening (more's the pity). I guess maybe you do need a certain amount of nationalism, to have a nation. 🙂

winston_dog - Member
I lived for 6 years in Scotland. There was a distinct minority who were very anti-English. I saw discrimination against English people in the workplace.

Must have been hard for you, you know coming from that utopian paradise of tolerance,England.
As balance,I lived in London for 6 years,there was a [b]distinct majority[/b] who were very anti-everybody else.

This country, our country, should be trying to get it's ar5e in gear rather than squabbling about how to cut up the ever decreasing slice of the pie.

Good luck with that. Westminster politics is broken, probably beyond repair - we're ruled by a coalition government that no-one voted for, in an election that only a minority could even bring themselves to vote in, and this situation has repeated over and over. Even Tony Blair in his most popular years only managed to get 22% of the population to vote for him.

If you live in Scotland, then vote if you don't then if you want a say move back.

Being an English Ex-pat I'm not that bothered but just not sure how much of the SNP's plans will carry one once funding from the rest stops. Just make sure you know what your voting for.

ll be voting yes and frankly I'd still vote yes if it guaranteed that I'd lose my job and took 10 years off my life.

I'm an 'incomer' albeit one who has lived in Scotland for all of my adult life. I'll be putting aside my own personal views and voting on behalf of my kids and what I think will be best for them in the future. I certainly wouldn't be voting yes if it diminished their job prospects and shortened their lives!

Saying 'our country is great' generally seems inextricably linked with 'compared to all those other countries that we are superior to'.

The ScotNat debate has been almost completely free of that - the most that's been said on the Yes side is that we could be as good as some other countries.

Whereas the No campaign basically boils down to "you'll never be as good as those other countries".

once funding from the rest stops

Once Scotland stops supporting the rest of the UK, we'll do fine thanks.

For clarity, I actually do think we'd be better off or at least not worse off. I was trying to illustrate that these arguments aren't what I'll be basing my decision on, for me it's ideological.

Aberdeen doesn't really reflect the rest of Scotland does it?
I'd say it reflects it rather better than London, Birmingham or Manchester. What's your point?

Aberdeen is pretty unique compared to any other city in the UK.

It is an area fueled by the N Sea Oil with London property prices and a multi national workforce.

The same Ireland that's actually doing pretty well now, with a higher GDP per capita than the UK?

Ireland was in recession in Q1 2013 and has an unemployment rate of over 13%. And you want Scotland to be like that?

I'll be putting aside my own personal views and voting on behalf of my kids and what I think will be best for them in the future.

Indeed. I grew up under Thatcher, saw all that she did to this country, and then when I finally got a chance to vote, who was the opposition? Tony F***ing Blair. For my whole life, I've been ruled by a government that seems completely opposite to my views, and disinterested or even antagonistic to the place I live.

I don't want that for my daughter.

Berm Bandit I think you're right about devolved power for the regions of England .As a Scot living in Scotland I would not expect to have any say in which powers should be devolved to which regions. Despite the many similarities Scotland is different from even those regions of England with which it has most in common. I suspect many Scots on the unionist side see Scotland as a country and Scots ad a nation.Independence will I hope be a step towards a fairer society.

London property prices and a multi national workforce.

Agree, with that and I'd even go so far to say that at times Aberdeen is very like London, in that it is driven by money and a quest for even more, so not too unlike the banking sector in London.

The ScotNat debate has been almost completely free of that - the most that's been said on the Yes side is that we could be as good as some other countries.

Not according to some people - http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/22/yes-to-scottish-independence

Also acceptable for foregrounding in Scottish independence debates, at least to judge by their place in the Homecoming Scotland 2014 programme , enabled by a £3m government grant, are allusions to: Highland games, whisky, clan gatherings, Gaelic, Rabbie Burns, the Forth Road Bridge's 50th birthday and Bannockburn Live, an event Salmond has described as Homecoming's "epicentre".

Let other 2014 commemorations of war dwell on reconciliation or shrink from triumphalism: next summer, visitors to Bannockburn's Live will enjoy a feast of martial entertainments, including, says Visit Scotland, "a spectacular re-enactment of this iconic battle close to the original site". Three "brutally realistic" massacres a day are promised.

"It's no surprise that 2014 is the year the SNP has chosen for the independence referendum," the Scottish poet Professor Kathleen Jamie wrote in the New Statesman after visiting the site. She is one of 10 Scottish poets invited to contribute inscriptions for a monument at Bannockburn, "exploring the significance of the Bannockburn battlefield to people today". "In some fantasy," Jamie said, "they perhaps imagine the 'independence' debate is akin to that gory feudal battle, which happened somewhere between a bog and a housing scheme, under the A91".

Whereas the No campaign basically boils down to "you'll never be as good as those other countries".

I'd agree that the No campaign has been deep cynical and pathetic.

Once Scotland stops supporting the rest of the UK, we'll do fine thanks.

They looked into this on More or Less and while obviously it all depends on how you define a number of things - IIRC they concluded that any money flowing either way probably wasn't a significant amount.

So what happened to the point that in order to join the EU, an independent Scotland would need to start the process from scratch, and that means that have to take the Euro?

Or has that been ignored as being too inconvenient for the political ideology?

vorlich - Member
OP, referring to us as jocks isn't great way of engaging us in debate TBH.

......and us is precisely whom? (Could I just point out that I would be entitled to a Scottish passport should this independance thing come about)

Or has that been ignored as being too inconvenient for the political ideology?

The currency point ignores the fact that monetary policy is set by global capitalism. Currency sovereignty is a myth (except perhaps for North Korea).

so not too unlike the banking sector in London.

......and us is precisely whom? (Could I just point out that I would be entitled to a Scottish passport should this independance thing come about)

Who do you think? The Scots.

Are some of your best friends black too?

The currency point ignores the fact that monetary policy is set by global capitalism. Currency sovereignty is a myth (except perhaps for North Korea).

I suspect that there are a few within the Euro zone who might disagree with you there.

is there any outline for if UK reject the currency union with Scotland?

is there any outline for if UK reject the currency union with Scotland?

We keep using Sterling anyway without the permission of the BoE, and refuse to take a share of the national debt?

I honestly think the whole thing is nonsense and it's a group of 2nd rate power hungry politicians who are feeding their own egos. Can't get in a real position of power in the Government? Easy, make yourself a new State.

IMO Scotland is a country that has much more distinct regions and sub cultures than the rest of the UK. If they get independence where will it stop? Wait until the Independent Scotland starts devolving internally!

Republic of Shetland and Orkney.
Republic of the Hebrides.
City State of Aberdeen. (Why should they support the rest of the Country?)
Central Belt.(Sorry that wouldn't work, Glasgow and Edinburgh can't agree on anything.

The whole thing is starting to feel like a very messy expensive divorce but it might be best to bite the bullet and get it over with, despite the damage in the medium term.