MegaSack DRAW - 6pm Christmas Eve - LIVE on our YouTube Channel
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Fabulous. Most of us would settle for any old ferry to France right now.
Looks great, don't think I'd get my campervan on though 🙁
I was going to post what Martin did. Really missing Brittany.
Awesome!
I'm wondering how the service all works out in rough weather..?
Looks pretty cool, but I wonder how many people are going to want to get to Cherbourg (or indeed Portsmouth) without a car? If you're going to have to get a train on arrival I'm pretty sure most people would probably just fly.
The flying ferry should be much more environmentally friendly than any aircraft. When costs reflect environmental impact it will also be much cheaper.
Will it carry bikes?
The flying ferry should be much more environmentally friendly than any aircraft.
Probably more environmentally friendly and a ton easier to just run a regular floatplane. Yonks ago floatplanes were made plenty big enough to cart around a cartload of passengers. Would look kinda sorta the same but with a proper sized wing. Also, known solution etc etc.
I'm struggling to see how a 180mph ekranoplan fits into channel traffic, it's airbourne and maybe needs ATC? but also has to contend with boats, piddly stuff driven by mug punter public drunk drivers as well as commercial tankers etc etc... and all at 180mph..?
Love to be wrong, cause it's total Buck Rogers.
Needs more engines - 8 just isn't enough and they need to belch massive plumes of crap out for the full Caspian sea monster effects
Probably more environmentally friendly and a ton easier to just run a regular floatplane.
I don't think it is. As I understand it, WIG vehicles have less induced drag for the amount of lift they generate. Less drag should mean less power required. Less power, less fuel/energy.
Will a train through the tunnel not be faster (because not swapping transport modes, twice), more environmentally friendly, more able to cope etc?
Edit: partly ignore me, I see it's the longer route.
I wonder if it works from Rosyth.
I bet it’s exciting in lumpy seas. Wonder what the maximum swell is before they can’t operate?
I’m struggling to see how a 180mph ekranoplan fits into channel traffic, it’s airbourne and maybe needs ATC? but also has to contend with boats, piddly stuff driven by mug punter public drunk drivers as well as commercial tankers etc etc… and all at 180mph..
My first thought exactly was who is going to provide separation. Too low for accurate radar coverage so normal ATC type of controlling would be ineffective.
What's the maneuverability like at high speed? Can it make sharp turns to avoid slow traffic?
IFR or VFR?
Its a cool idea and I would use it, but can't see it working under current regulations so the time frame is grossly optimistic.
Who cares about the practical it would be cool to ride in one
Don't they already operate a fastcat or something, anyway this is what you need to cross the channel
Tandem hydorfoil
Always used to enjoy the hovercraft when it was running. It was the first choice for me when crossing the channel. This looks like similar level of fun
Tandem hydorfoil
Why have I not seen that before, that is awesome.
I don’t think it is. As I understand it, WIG vehicles have less induced drag for the amount of lift they generate. Less drag should mean less power required. Less power, less fuel/energy.
Fair point. Although you got to go off and develop this thing in the first place whereas this is already in flight:
arriving in Caen
Honestly, if it took forty hours and this was the end result I’d be on it.
Also, don’t know what the fuel consumption of these various fast options are but Stena scrapped the HSS because it became financially unsustainable - fuel prices raised ticket prices, which exceeded the cost/benefit for customers.
TL/DR : most customers will only pay a small premium for time saving
I'd love to own a Beriev Be-200.
It will never happen.
There is a massive difference in sea conditions between the Channel and the Caspian Sea.
Well unless you can fit on a few articulated lorries and caravans and motorhomes it doesn't stand a chance. The only reason to go to Caan is because you're driving, so unless its going to be like the Caspian Sea Monster you're not going to be carrying any vehicles. If you're just wanting to get to France without a vehicle then just fly on a normal plane - why would you want to do to Caan otherwise? Ekranoplans cannot be more efficient to operate than a proper plane unless it is doing something a plane can't do.
Its a quirky little vehicle looking for a niche to fit into. Like hovercrafts and hydrofoils. Not to mention the complication of managing a fast moving low flying object in the worlds busiest shipping lane with other slow moving ferries, container ships, sailing vessels etc. All technically possible but at what cost? Then the complication of weather and sea state.
They have less drag than a ferry...but not less drag than a proper plane flying at 20k feet or more so can't possibly compete. The Russians looked at them as a weapons carrier to attack large ships - as a sort of replacement for a destroyer or something - faster...able to carry some serious firepower, but they didn't succeed as aircraft and guided missiles could do a better job. You have the worst of both worlds...all the downsides, complications and safety issues of an aircraft, but none of the convenience and versatility of a proper boat.
Impressive things though. Look up the YouTube channel 'Bald and Bankrupt' a chap traveling through Russia andante Ukraine etc. he hunted out the whereabouts of the original Ekranoplans. Found one just beached up on a random beach rotting away.
Needs more engines – 8 just isn’t enough and they need to belch massive plumes of crap out for the full Caspian sea monster effects
Stick some missiles on top while your at it.
I’m struggling to see how a 180mph ekranoplan fits into channel traffic
This. If you're travelling at 180mph you either need a fixed clear route (railway) or height segregation (aircraft). Can a WIG craft use extra short term power to climb over an obstacle?
Can a WIG craft use extra short term power to climb over an obstacle?
Depends on things like notice they get of the obstacle...what separation they will need to clear...normally aircraft in controlled airspace need 1000 feet vertical separation....what will it be like for passenger comfort...did they buy a ticket for a roller coaster ride? could take avoidance laterally, so fly around, but will need alot of technology to confirm that they are not flying into the path of another obstacle and again, what about passenger comfort for 'aggressive' manoeuvres.
Just not feasible on so many levels.
Can a WIG craft use extra short term power to climb over an obstacle?
I'm going with "doubtful", because they have a wing sized perfectly to keep them about 20m above the sea.
The only reason to go to Caan is because you’re driving
Unless your reason is "to go on an ekranoplan". Which is admittedly a super niche market.
Oooft. Memories of the Portsmouth-Caen crossing in heavy seas 25 years ago, and the amount of boaking going on around us, will stay with me forever. How does an ekranoplan cope with decent swell?
Brings to mind the 'flying dolphin' boats operating in the Aegean. We normally used the regular 'slow' boat between Piraeus and Aegina, but this did it in less than a third of the time. Big waves thumping into it slowed it down a fair bit, as in enough to launch a couple of folk out of their seats on one occasion.
Its a quirky little vehicle looking for a niche to fit into. Like hovercrafts and hydrofoils. Not to mention the complication of managing a fast moving low flying object in the worlds busiest shipping lane with other slow moving ferries, container ships, sailing vessels etc. All technically possible but at what cost? Then the complication of weather and sea state.
Several manufacturers (including Airbus) are desperately trying to get in on what is supposedly the burgeoning business model of electric "personal air taxis" - some kind of drone thing that can carry 1 or 2 passengers, the idea being that you'd use them from the helipad on top of your office block to fly to the airport or your next business meeting high above the congested streets.
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Again, it's a solution looking for a problem. Or a problem more easily solved with better mass transit. Trains though - well they're boring. Much better to come up with a hyperloop or an airtaxi. Same here - nice idea and yes, I'd love one but the logistics of running it across the busiest shipping lane in the world when it can only carry a few dozen passengers is just insane.
The only reason to go to Caan is because you’re driving
I've gone there with my bike a couple of times. It's a great entry point for some Normandy touring.
Thing is, when you're going on a camping holiday in Brittany or whatever you're using your car, and you've already written of a day or a day and a half to do it. I don't see a market for this kind of thing, but I could be wrong.
Ah, just read that it's battery powered. This is interesting though because it might solve the issue of weight for battery powered planes. Once governments get their act together and ban short haul flights this kind of thing could be essential. I can imagine pretty important for the Nordic or Med regions.
Once governments get their act together and ban short haul flights this kind of thing could be essential.
Am I right in thinking France recently announced a ban on short haul flights where the same journey could be done in under 2 hours by train?
Several manufacturers (including Airbus) are desperately trying to get in on what is supposedly the burgeoning business model of electric “personal air taxis” – some kind of drone thing that can carry 1 or 2 passengers, the idea being that you’d use them from the helipad on top of your office block to fly to the airport or your next business meeting high above the congested streets.
Yes they are however this is a completely different situation. They will be operating in completely clear airspace from a blank canvas as it were, with no existing operations, with only other similar vehicles operating all on the same rules and at the same standard of technology, navigation systems and alot more controls, the whole thing working in concert and sympathy in a coordinated fashion. Out on the channel you have a massive variety of vessels, all moving at different speeds, pleasure vessels, commercial vessels, moving apparently randomly...its a completely different prospect and alot more challenging. So many more variables. And these systems have along way to go before they are out there with members of the public flying around on them...we're talking not in any of our lifetime kind of timescales. We might see it on some small scale but to the point where it is established and a common way to travel, many decades before the technology is created, matured, developed and demonstrated, certified and made cheap enough to be available to the masses. Maybe...just maybe the kind of thing our kids might see in their lifetimes.
Am I right in thinking France recently announced a ban on short haul flights where the same journey could be done in under 2 hours by train?
I think they did (or are) but I think it might be restricted to domestic journeys.
The ekranoplan thing is a kinda cool idea but far too at mercy of the conditions in the channel, as others have said, I'd imagine trying to pilot a 180mph vehicle through the businest shipping lane in the world could get interesting etc.
I reckon its only a slightly less bonkers idea than United or whoever it is in the US who have signed up a company who have never produced a plane before, to produce a fleet of supersonic passenger planes in the next few years...
WIG craft have a far higher payload than an equivalently powered conventional aircraft so it stands to reason that they would be more efficient. This also isn't some new technology that's never been explored, its quite established but never had the economics add up.
I agree that the traffic seperation is a major stumbling block though.
From my 1 crossing of the channel on a small boat, the TSS doesn't stretch as far West as this will be operating? Still need carefully navigation, but not quote the same level of problem
Added after
who have signed up a company who have never produced a plane before, to produce a fleet of supersonic passenger planes in the next few years…
Boom Supersonic?
They're expecting to flight test the 1/3 scale prototype this year.
Main problem for them seems to be availability of suitable engines.
This. If you’re travelling at 180mph you either need a fixed clear route (railway) or height segregation (aircraft).
Surely at 180mph other traffic starts to look a bit pedestrian? Plot your course as you leave port, leave a big enough margin and by the time you reach it its still pretty much where you thought it was?
They have less drag than a ferry…but not less drag than a proper plane flying at 20k feet or more
I thought they had a lot less drag?
Anyway...
I’m rusty on the details but 10 years or so back I spent a fair amount of mental effort going through (or trying to!) ground effect aerodynamics.
The big ‘win’ you get, as scotroutes says, is a massively better lift to drag ratio. That means (crudely) for the same fuel (to overcome the drag) you can carry a lot more. It seems a really good application for battery power as a result.
On cruising height- you get two kinds of ground effect. Chord based is stronger, but requires you to get to within (IIRC) 0.4 chord of the ground. Span based buys let’s you creep up to 0.6,0.7 or so of chord. This looks more like that.
Some are limited to ground effect but it’s perfectly possible to design a ground effect vehicle that can ‘jump’ (or take off and fly normally as well- though at that point it’s an aeroplane for certification).
Edit- I might have span and chord based the wrong way round. It’s been a decade!
Boom Supersonic?
They’re expecting to flight test the 1/3 scale prototype this year.
Main problem for them seems to be availability of suitable engines.
Thats them. I reckon they'll struggle if they not only have to build the plane but build/find someone to build an econmical, clean supersonic engine for them...
They have the right backers, I think, and Rolls Royce are lined up for engine dev, which I'd imagine will be an existing core with a different fan arrangement, a current high bypass commercial unit will be useless for them. Awkwardly, they need an engine which is a lot like military kit... Which they can't use because it's military kit...
