here is my commentagain... and thanks for the censorship.
"strong and stable" ?
when May has the same level of exposure as the general public and carries on her day as normal then maybe she will earn the right to say things like that.
Goverment meddling in countries we feel we have a right to intervene when it suits us leads to this type of horrific occurance. A total failure is what it is.
The real issues and cause of these type of attacks are avoided and instead they are used for spin and public point scoring, it is a disgrace.
**** her, her high security, her bulletproof limo, and the rest of the cowards that shed their part of the blame and responsibility, who hide themselves and shamelessly tell everyone to carry on as normal.
Is it offensive to point out that we have been bombing various middle eastern countries for the last 15 years or so? And pointing out that there may be a connection between this and these appalling acts of terrorism?
Weren't his family massively opposed to (and refugees from) the Gadaffi regime, and able to return home as a result of the evil west helping topple him?
£ per life the money would probably be better spent on improving road safety (more than 22 people die on UK roads every week) than on putting troops on the streets...............
I was wondering when this would come up. I did hope it wouldn't sadly my hope was in vain 🙁
Weren't his family massively opposed to (and refugees from) the Gadaffi regime, and able to return there as a result of the evil helping topple him?
are you suggesting that libya is a safer and more stable place since the latest western intervention?
but does it not just stink of massive political opportunism on the back of a horrendous and despicable event?
This was my initial thought, but do you think any other leader would have done things differently regardless of whether there was an election coming up?
Not a fan of May. I hope the Tories lose the election.
However, I reckon that due to her actions in the last two days then she will triumph over the other parties.
Another five years of the Walking Dead.
I almost wish it was political opportunism. It isn't though, is it?
The security services have been warning for years about the possibility of jihadists returning from Syria having learned the skills necessary to build IED's and suicide vests.
Now it's happened.
So the 'security situation' has just escalated massively, as 'the enemy' now has a capacity it didn't have before, and has shown a willingness to use it. Think it won't do so again? That this was a one off?
No... neither do I. And clearly, neither do the police
You should not attempt to conflate two wholly separate issues. Your post reads like [s]an attempt to make cheap political capital out of a tragedy.[/s] a failure to understand how threat levels are assessed
Plus, this attack might be giving some others ideas. One person thinks "car as weapon" others follow. One thinks "people leaving concert hall= crowds of people in confined space = target", others follow.
Also, the security services will be in overdrive just now. Anyone thinking of an attack might be thinking about bringing it forward as people seen as "peripheral threats" worth being aware of but not necessarily watching have their surveillance levels upped. It looks much more like knee jerk reactions or political opportunism than it actually is.
So the 'security situation' has just escalated massively, as 'the enemy' now has a capacity it didn't have before, and has shown a willingness to use it.
I know nothing about bomb making, but the ability to make and willingness to use an improvised device is certainly nothing new.
It is indeed cynical and quite depressing to think that people would exploit this atrocity for their own nefarious benefit. Even with my confirmation bias firmly shelved; these are politicians that we are talking about. Of course they are using this to make political capital, it's what they do.
We do need some very clear un emotional fact based thinking.
How do acts of terrorism scale compared to other avoidable risks such as road safety, polution, obesity or mental health?
What responsibility (if any) does Islamic culture play in the action of some followers?
Why do young people of Asian decent not feel part of Britain?
What is the effect of western military action in the middle east.
What is the effect of us selling weapons in the middle east.
Why are the oil companies giving money to our governing party.
This is my opinion,
The police have lost 20k officers since 2010, we are told that the bomber was known to the police, would having extra officers have meant they could keep better tabs on him? Having soldiers on the streets of NI didn't really help, they are not police after all their raison d'etre is different.
There was a threat and has been for a while but the government has chosen to cut police numbers, if you treat someone like crap there is a high probabilty they will lash out. Go read the front pages of papers like the Mail to see how they regard so many.
At some point you are going to have to deal with the world outside and start asking where the money is coming from and what the solution is, is Saudi exporting Wahhabism the problem is the UK buying Saudi oil an issue. Isis makes there money buy selling oil, someone must be buying it.... Should we be supplying weaponry to Saudi? etc etc
You mean looking at the root causes and addressing the behaviour of the government rather than just blaming muslims?
That will never catch on.
Here we go again.
This is not political; it is a clear matter of national security.
PM has been advised by JTAC - which is a politically independent body - to raise the threat level.
The decision to raise the threat level may not be political, but don't think for one moment that there aren't cogs turning in the minds of those in Government over how to capitalise on this in the future.
[quote=mrmo said]This is my opinion,
The police have lost 20k officers since 2010, we are told that the bomber was known to the police, would having extra officers have meant they could keep better tabs on him?
The police don't keep tabs do they ? Thought it was MI5.
As has been said raising the threat level to Critical isn't just a fairly meaningless thing for public consumption that political capital can be gained from.
You think?
There are a lot of studies which show that raising fear / threat levels politically benefit the incumbent as anxiety makes people seek the familiar and less likely to opt for change.
Will benefit the Tories by a few % points in the election.
I can't believe this wasn't at the forefront of May's mind when she chose to do so. Rubbing her hands with glee, more like.
[quote=kerley ]You mean looking at the root causes and addressing the behaviour of the government rather than just blaming muslims?
That will never catch on.
you mean like this?
I dont buy this independent line. The Head of SIS is an employee of the foreign office and appointed by the foreign secretary. The current one was appointed by this government 3 years ago.
My opinion for what it's worth....
We do need some very clear un emotional fact based thinking.
Which does happen at governmental and institution levels, apart from when the general public are concerned.
How do acts of terrorism scale compared to other avoidable risks such as road safety, polution, obesity or mental health?
very low but it is a security issue. If people start to feel unsafe then our whole society breaks down.
What responsibility (if any) does Islamic culture play in the action of some followers?
Terrorism has no religion, but the terrorists have 'weaponised' islam to suit their own ends. If I were a muslim this would p me off and I would expect the collective muslim 'people' to rise up and condemn and do what they could to re-claim their religion, which I'm sure they are doing. So they play a pivotal role but not 100% their responsibility. Personally as an atheist so treat all religions with equal distain, I think there are some fundamental incompatibilities with Islamic values and Christian/western democratic values, so there is a reckoning that has to occur at some point if we're to live peacefully together, but in this day and age offence seems to trump free speech so we're doomed. That's how Brexit happened. Personally I'd like to see all religions relegated to 'pass-times' that people do in their spare time, like playing Squash or mountain biking. The world will be all the better for it (refer back to your first question about un-emotional thinking).
Why do young people of Asian decent not feel part of Britain?
There are plenty of non-Asian people who don't fit in with any society they are in. Britain is not alone in this nor are some Asian people. Its just an excuse and something that those who radicalise people look for to exploit. Radicalisation is the root cause here, and islam is the tool and social misfits are the targets. It's plain good old fashioned brain washing.
What is the effect of western military action in the middle east.
It's complicated. I spent 5 years traveling to the ME and spoke to many people on this from various ME countries. There are many different points of view. Some see western intervention as absolutely key and necessary and welcome it. Some think we should keep our noses out. Some are desperate for a western style of democracy, some think it is incompatible with Islamic principles and wont work in the Islamic world. Some blame Saudi Arabia, some blame Iran, for some Israel is the only issue and fix that (i.e. wipe Israel off the face of the earth) and all will be well in the world. It's complicated and very very hard.
What is the effect of us selling weapons in the middle east.
Our western world relies on safe and secure supply of oil - fact. We sell stuff to the oil producing ME countries and in return we get a stable supply of the black stuff. Its a crappy exchange, but necessary. Our best bet is to work closely with countries like Saudi Arabia and try to influence their behaviour - soft diplomacy. but the Saudi's feel they can't be seen to be taking a soft stance against their 'enemies', so its a very long road and will take decades.
Why are the oil companies giving money to our governing party
Not sure they are they? They've stamped down on all that sort of behaviour. But oil companies, just like big non-oil companies will have an opinion of what party would benefit them most if in power and support them as best they can to achieving power. No different to people really, they try to influence the outcome to their advantage - just like people proposing tactical voting, which is just a legitimate form of vote rigging.
So in summary politics is a hard and complicated business.
Completely unfounded of course but my level of cynicism and having a similar view of Tories as Aneurin Bevan the whole Manchester catastrophe is something panning out like a Francis Urquhart plot.
Have a look on Twitter at #BritishThreatLevels
A welcome injection of humour to the whole awful situation
crazy-legs - Member
Have a look on Twitter at #BritishThreatLevels
A welcome injection of humour to the whole awful situation
superb 😀
Scott Reid? @scottreid1980 2h2 hours ago
More
"So we're going to mix up where everyone sits at the wedding reception so you can meet new people." #britishthreatlevels
@wobbliescot good insight, on the last point apparently 390k recently not including their wife's contribution.
Nick Clegg (strong critic of both May and Amber on past approaches to connected issues) on Radio4 now talking sense on current response: they are doing what has to be done this week in supporting those who have tough/important jobs to do.
As soon as Victoria is reopened, I'm off into Manchester.
Leave the conspiracy theories for another time.
Well, at least The Sun is leaving no doubt about using a tragedy for political ends. Disgusting.
https://www.change.org/p/andy-burnham-ban-boycott-the-sun-newspaper-in-manchester
@wobbliscott - your comment about 'weaponising' can, regrettably, be widely applied.
You refer to religion; it's also used in politics and on other subjects.
For all contributors.....for what it's worth - i hate it; stick to the facts and focus your comments on the facts. Forget about points scoring and personal prejudice.
I commend to you the 4 F's - First Find the Facts; when you've done that we can have a rational discussion.
Until then.......
The Sun's first edition on Tuesday indeed did lead with a story about Corbyn - but this was because they are not clairvoyant it was published before the bomb exploded. Front page of later editions naturally splashed on the bomb. So it a ****ing ridiculous petition, but based on some of frankly disgusting conspiracy theories being aired, it is hardly surprising.
Mods - I did not use the F word in full; I used asterisks *.
Your edit now means that the 4 F's have been devalued to three meaningless F's; the F you have deleted gives relevance to the post.
If you suggest four Fs and your subsequent clause has three words beginning with F I'd respectfully suggest that even the forum's Professionally Hard Of Thinking will be able to work out where the fourth F has gone.
The fourth F has clearly F'ed off.
You acknowledge that some forumites are congenitally hard of thinking? That's reassuring.
All set for your mini sufferfest on Sunday? Good cause but next time - half marathon.
Before you ask, yes I've done everything upto 20 miles so I empathise.
Oh to be a mod - the unbridled power and influence; or is it the drudgery.....................
Mostly the latter to be honest.
I wonder why I bother sometimes, due to personal circumstances I've not ridden anywhere in like three years now.
For effs sake, we can effing communicate without effing effing
I wonder why I bother sometimes, due to personal circumstances I've not ridden anywhere in like three years now.
FWIW, I appreciate that you do Mod, especially in times like the last few days.
Since the attacks two years ago on Charlie Ebdo and the Jewish supermarket France has seen 5000 troops on its streets. Adding military support to our (really very few) armed police makes perfect sense. Islamic terrorist groups have been calling for and preparing attacks in the West for years now hence the prior level of alert, the Manchester bombing shows clearly we face a heightened risk. My shock isn't that it happened - that was only a matter of time - it is that they chose to target children.
Libya and Gadaffi where the prime suppliers of Cemtex to the IRA. Cemtex is very powerful and its my understanding does not show up on normal airport style scanners (its the battery, wired and detonator you'd see in a complete bomb). As such its very possible that this Libyian group - Libyian Islamic Foghting Force - has access to supplies of very powerful military grade high explosive smuggled into the UK.
We face the most extreme threat.
During the height of the"Troubles" and the IRAs campaign of murder Corbyn supoorted their objectives of a united Ireland and the withdrawl of British Troops as well as meeting senior members of Sinn Fein (and now known to be IRA terrorists). That's consistent with him today supporting the creation of an Islamic State in Syria and Iraq (the Levant) and the end of military action against IS as well as inviting them to Westminster. That is before we get onto his legitimatisation of terrorist groups like Hezbollah amd Hamas.
Corbyn absolutely deserves every sentence of critism he is receiving over being a terrorist sympathiser. I posted right at the beginning of TeamHurmore's Corbyn thread that these links would come to the fore during any election campaign.
I prefer it when you just bang on incessantly about how the EU is about to explode and Greece will kill the EZ rather than murder this point to death
I realise engaging your diatribes with facts is a futile but we have all heard it right from the start and no one is biting here
Use it on the hard of thinking will you as they might just buy your non fact s nonsense
Even a broken clock is correct twice a day and it outperforms you twice a day
I posted right at the beginning of TeamHurmore's Corbyn thread that these links would come to the fore during any election campaign.
Well, done. You predicted that the right wing media would make up crap on Corbyn to help the tories win.
The sad thing is you seem to be believing it.
jamba hitting the cocktail cabinet a bit early today - usually he waits till around lunchtime.
Junkyard - lazarus
I prefer it when you just bang on incessantly about how the EU is about to explode and Greece will kill the EZ rather than murder this point to death
I realise engaging your diatribes with facts is a futile but we have all heard it right from the start and no one is biting here
Use it on the hard of thinking will you as they might just buy your non fact s nonsenseEven a broken clock is correct twice a day and it outperforms you twice a day
Agree with that.
DrJ - Member
jamba hitting the cocktail cabinet a bit early today - usually he waits till around lunchtime.POSTED 3 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST
And that.
mefty - Member
The Sun's first edition on Tuesday indeed did lead with a story about Corbyn - but this was because they are not clairvoyant it was published before the bomb exploded.
The Sun should be boycotted for the story, (did they also have it on their website, and remove it promptly?) seeing as [url= http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/ira-renegade-changes-story-on-death-claim-26185986.html ]the source for it is a self confessed liar who has admitted, in court, to making up stories to the (Murdoch) press before and taking money for it[/url]
he also claimed to have single handedly saved charles and diana from being blown up (His garda handlers didnt nelieve hime either)
the guy is a serial liar
you bet Theresa May has canned Levenson part 2 and the Tabloids continue to spread lies
We are in this shit in part thanks to Tony Blairs Sun & Tory backed invasion of Iraq
&
[url= https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/sep/14/mps-deliver-damning-verdict-on-camerons-libya-intervention ]Camerons disastrous intervention in Libya (backed again by a tumescent Sun) [/url]
and we are now told that the police were warned multiple times about the manchester bomber, weve now got the armny in the streets
if only the police had tried to warn us that cutting their numbers would affect our safety .....
And our [s]Weak & Wobbly[/s] Strong & Stable home secretary accused them of 'crying wolf'
And now we have people claiming it was a false flag attack organised by the Tories. After seeing this thread, I wondered if that idea would come up. SNP supporters on twitter do not disappoint.
grumpysculler - Member
And now we have people claiming it was a false flag attack organised by the Tories.
i think thats Alex Jones level of tinfoil hattery there!
grumpysculler - Member
And now we have people claiming it was a false flag attack organised by the Tories. After seeing this thread, I wondered if that idea would come up. SNP supporters on twitter do not disappoint.
Really? I doubt there would more of them saying that than there would be in the rest of the tinfoil community, but you could see how its convenient timing would lead them to think this.
However a bit of thought is all that's needed to dismiss the likelihood of a young muslim extremist agreeing to blow himself up to assist in the election of who he sees as his enemy's leader.
The sheer horror of children being targeted has brought home to many the realisation that this is what our govt's bombing is doing daily to children in the middle east. Just imagine a Manchester every day. How can you multiply horrendous?
[url= http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/this-was-a-false-flag-says-arsehole-who-thinks-everything-is-a-****g-false-flag-20170525128278 ]Definitely a flase flag[/url]
