Not sure why you feel the need to get personal.
Why, when you spend endless hour agonising about what you spend you money on, the lastest BMW or whatever and then criticise nurses for going on strike? Give your head a wobble!
Lets take nursing as its what I know
Starting salary after a 4 year degree. £27,055 You will be working a shift pattern that is known to be damaging to health ( usually) 1 week in 4 on night shift and weekends / evenings / public holidays. Extra payments for shifts will add a couple of thousand to that and decent sick pay / holiday pay / pensions ( but not nearly as good as it used to be) Huge responsibilities and constant short staffed working
Do you think thats good wage and equivalent to a private sector wage for similar working conditions / responsibilities?
Wages have constantly been eroded and are now worth about 80% of what they were pre the tories taking over. Pensions and sick pay have also been cut
Why, when you spend endless hour agonising about what you spend you money on, the lastest BMW or whatever and then criticise nurses for going on strike? Give your head a wobble!
Maybe you should have noted my number plate when you saw the car, and read back over several years of forum history before you make aspersions. Nothing wrong with being spending time to decide to be appropriately frugal, I’m pretty confident I won’t be getting an inflation busting pay rise or job security that keeps me employed if I don’t make my numbers next year.
You’ve just shown me a graph where average public sector wages are higher than private sector and expect me to be sympathetic?
It doesnt show that once you take into account the relative skills etc (most of the low paid work in public sector having been outsourced which, after the management cuts are taken, result in even lower private sector wages for those workers). It does show however the continual cut in standards unless of course you feel those like for likes have changed?
I didn’t say they didn’t deserve one, I’m bemoaning the way they are going about it, I’ve seen some demands at 19% increase.
Given the rise in rental costs (ignoring all the others) I can see why some people would be wanting that. Odd how the tories only preach restraint for workers though isnt it? That aside havent you heard of start high?
As for the public sector doing well. Up to September it was 2.2% increase in the public sector vs 6.6 private sector.
Perhaps the strikes are happening due to the unwillingness of the government to negotiate honestly?
I’m pretty confident I won’t be getting an inflation busting pay rise or job security that keeps me employed if I don’t make my numbers next year.
100% confident I won't even if I do make my numbers, same as the last 10 years
After reading The Guardian, I thought it was 8% next year (4+4). 4% alone is too weak imo and much lower than other settlements.
I think the driver/door thing is more about conductors not wanting to be made redundant. If the rdg were smart, they would offer a guarantee to train them up as drivers!
There really does need to be a clear vision for the future of UK rail. Then the staffing and industrial relations would be much more manageable.
I would rather see conditions attached to a commitment for investment in new infrastructure, than a pay rise. That's what will ultimately improve the service for travellers.
It says on the RDG website;
'... pay increases of up to 8 per cent, covering 2022 and 2023 pay awards...'
They can't both be right!
I would rather see conditions attached to a commitment for investment in new infrastructure, than a pay rise. That’s what will ultimately improve the service for travellers.
There comes a point where seeking to improve services by making those who work in them poorer can be seen as counter productive by everyone. Are we not there yet?
Mine have been below inflation for at least ten years, how would you suggest I get what I deserve or what we need to attract people to fill the empty roles?
Yep.
We got a decent pay rise earlier this year, if you look at it purely as a one year rise - but as I pointed out to my Manager I'm still 15% down as we got bu99er all in the previous 5 years.
That graph up above feels right though, based on my experiences. The job I do now is barely paying any more than the same role (I was a lot more senior then) would've paid out in 2005/6 - I'd imagine though it's including pensions somehow in the calcs for the public sector to be above the private sector.
And Kryton, note it's averaging at less than £600pw AKA £30k, and showing getting on for +15 years of wage stagnation. A pal of mine is a train driver, they earn decent money but also have responsibility AND have a right mix & muddle of shifts to deal with (could you deal with never having the same <7 day> week of shifts, ever?)
It takes a year to train one, so you'd expect there's a 'premium' for that job, especially since the train companies don't train enough of them and rely on poaching from other companies - the industry/Govt have brought this on themselves IMO.
I don't know. There is a good case for pay rises and the RMT articulate their case better than the RDG.
I'm not convinced pay rises/changes to conditions will improve the rail network/service in the long term, though.
We need new track, signalling, stations + rolling stock for that. Yes, you need to pay the staff but I would start with research, then make a plan and stick to it.
My view on the negotiations is that goodwill and co-operation was exhausted far too long ago. Neither side trusts each other, which is very damaging to boh.
Something that is getting lost in this is that % doesn't actually cover the truth of the COL increases. A nurse like TJ's example getting 4% equates to just over £1000 more, after tax and with allowances being frozen, that'll be say £750-800. £60-65 per month.
Your middle manager type on £60K - getting the same % is going to be getting double that even allowing for higher tax rates. That is not equitable. No one inflates the nurse's gas bill in line with earnings. Their food bill goes up by the same amount. A litre of fuel to get to work is the same.... it disproportionately impacts the less well off. Even the £500 energy top up - everyone got that.
(and if the answer to that is that actually their gas bill does go up more because they've got a bigger house, and the fuel bill goes up more because they've got a bigger car.... that's not going to garner sympathy)
My wife works in a school (admin but comes from the same budget). She's been given 2% this year, that's £440. After tax, it's less than £30 a month. Her total pay rise is less than the price of the watches on the fancy watch thread.
Whoops, mistake there...... she didn't get anything last year, so it's 2% over the last 2 years.
The way strikes are defeated are by creating divisions; when you start to 'lose sympathy' because nurses and teachers are threatening to strike because it's all they have left, you're starting to side with the Tories.
Mick Lynch is about to do the phone in on Five Live. The usual listenership of foaming-at-the-mouth taxi drivers will be at the ready with their tirades.
Should be worth a listen 😂
Your middle manager type on £60K – getting the same % is going to be getting double that even allowing for higher tax rates. That is not equitable.
Indeed. My part of the public sector was offered a flat rate increase across all grades, which was far more equitable, though it was worse for me personally.
we had a performance based % increase, but underpinned so no-one got less than a certain amount, which meant that lowest pay grades actually got about 2x what the % increase would have given.
On the plus side, I'm now WFH until mid January. The office is ostensibly 2 days a week in, 3 days WFH but both my line manager and I have said we won't even be trying to get in during train strikes and the head of department didn't even question it, just agreed that trying to drive in winter conditions would be pointless.
I'm betting it will be resolved by the end of January. The offers can't get much better - maybe the conditions could be more favourable (to the strikers) but the carnage of the next few weeks really will force a deal IMO.
Meanwhile, it seems a drink in a brewery is beyond some train companies abilities.
Quelle surprise.
Note that 30%+ of services didn't run - and that's an improvement on what they have been running so far.
Yet official figures don't show that, as they cancel them far enough in advance (24hrs) to not have to record it as cancelled...
I'm trying not to conflate my frustration with the government, rail managers and unions with the individual staff, but it's hard to have much sympathy....
The governnent, if they chose to, could make an offer acceptable to the RMT.
I see that steve barclay, in his meeting wuth the RCN, refused to discuss pay.
It's only the single biggest issue that nurses have.
What an insult to the nursing profession.
It would appear that things aren't going little Rishi's way - unions not capitulating; economy in recession; chancellor saying economy will worsen further before any improvement; brexit downsides are increasingly difficult to ignore or deny; much vaunted trade deals are beung shown to be disadvantageous - australia/nz/japan; high profile policies beung ditched; uncontrollable back bench factions - and there's more...
Radio 4 on my way home stated that inflation is running at 11.* %, private sector average pay deals are 6.* % and public sector 2.2%. It's no bloody wonder staff are striking, and yet the government are refusing to have anything to do with negotiations. As was pointed out, most of these sectors worked all through the pandemic and the same politicians lauded them. Now they get derided and degraded for fighting for fair wages and conditions.
We should all be entirely sympathetic and supportive of these strikes, despite any personal hardship. If the current workers don't fight for fair pay and conditions there won't be any youngsters wanting to become teachers, nurses, carers etc. hell, there's evidence that this is happening already and the country will be even more ****ed in future than it is now if those roles can't be filled.
* can't remember the exact percentage points.
and the country will be even more **** in future than it is now if those roles can’t be filled.
I fully expect that any position can be filled for half the cost once we have a “deal” with India. After all, these are the people from the commonwealth who came to our rescue in the Second World War and flew spitfires that defeated the Germans and are now bravely coming to our aid again. The gammons will lap it up and Starmer will break out his best Union Jack and welcome each one of them personally.
If the current workers don’t fight for fair pay and conditions there won’t be any youngsters wanting to become teachers
But the figures are far worse for secondary school recruitment, where they are at just 59% of the DfE’s annual target, well below the 79% reached last year. It means the government has missed its own targets in nine of the past 10 years.
Teacher shortages are already at crisis point and such a substantial shortfall in recruiting trainees means this situation will become even worse. The shortfall in physics teachers – only 17% of target – is particularly concerning as this subject already suffers from acute shortages,
There really does need to be a clear vision for the future of UK rail. Then the staffing and industrial relations would be much more manageable.
The whole industry has been in managed decline for decades. Patchy "fix it" funding rather than long term "upgrade it" funding, privatisation, bailouts and the challenges of trying to run a vaguely modern service on what is mostly Victorian infrastructure.
There are exceptions of course (London mostly) but no Government has given it long term thought. The recent (very delayed) Integrated Rail Plan was widely panned, especially up North, the intention to set up a new "governing body" for rail, Great British Railways (terrible name...) has stalled completely in spite of a high profile competition for cities in the north to host the HQ.
It's a horrible mix of DfT, Network Rail (which is an arm's length governing body) and then a dozen train operators under all sorts of different contracts. And Government is far too inept to do anything about it - in fact they almost don't want to do anything anyway.
I see that steve barclay, in his meeting wuth the RCN, refused to discuss pay.
It’s only the single biggest issue that nurses have.
Note no strike in Scotland due to an improved offer. this shows that it can be done with the political will and that labour by refusing to acknowledge this 'cos it would mean approving of something the SNP have done are not using this as a stick to beat the tories with
For me it was very frustrating that on this mornings radio 4 interview they were able to repeatably (essentially) claim the reduced passengers after covid was a reason to manage decline of rail, without any counter questioning around the effect this would have on decarbonisation of transport
Theres also the inherent contradiction at the heart of all this
Rail is in decline, with steadily reducing passenger numbers, so we can't justify the funding, but we also need to spend 100 billion quid on a new commuter line into London from the midlands
Rail is in decline, with steadily reducing passenger numbers, so we can’t justify the funding, but we also need to spend 100 billion quid on a new commuter line into London from the midlands
That argument comes around in one form or another all the time from people who have no idea about Induced Demand. You get it with cycle lanes too - "oh I never see anyone cycling so why build cycle lanes?"
Strangely, no-one ever says "oh I never see anyone driving across that field, why build a road?"
Sorry CL, but Binners is right. The HS2 London Commuter line is an abomination
<edit, just realised that your point wasn't aimed at HS2. Never mind, HS2 can **** off anyway>
They want to build a 100 billion pound commuter line into London from Birmingham, while simultaneously failing dismally to provide a service from Manchester to the capital on the existing lines
You couldn’t make it up
Speaking as someone who lives less than a mile from HS2 route. Who knows what use the line will have in its lifetime, yes it's expensive and has ripped up some beautiful parts of the country but part of decarbonisation has to involve a decent rail network. I just wish there was the foresight to extend it fully as initially proposed & improve services in the north that seem desperately required, especially when compared with Londons relatively good transport network.
Now back to these strikes...
Rail is in decline, with steadily reducing passenger numbers, so we can’t justify the funding, but we also need to spend 100 billion quid on a new commuter line into London from the midlands
Cause or effect?
For me, I and my family have been increasingly using rail for work and leisure. Up until 3 years ago when Scotrail messed up the new timetable and caused more headaches than I care to remember. Since then I worry about taking the train as you never know if you will actually get there. And in the last year it has become exponentially worse, particularly in northern England.
Instead, I had two of my lads and myself travel this last week by shiny new electric bus on the exact same routes as the train in central Scotland - and all 7 journeys the buses were basically booked out / one spare seat. So much so that Ember are discussing expanding having not been running for long.
So there is a desire for public transport - but somehow rail is being run down and bodged in a way which is reducing numbers.
So in my head, all the strikes at the moment is a bit like arguing who gets the back deck of the Titanic....
You couldn’t make it up
HS2 paid my wages for about 2 years a few years back. Trust me it's a waste of money. 😀
but part of decarbonisation has to involve a decent rail network
HS2 isn't really a rail project, it's a propping up the engineering and construction industry project. On that basis alone you could arguably justify it's existence but there are much better things to spend 100bn on that would support the construction industry and provide higher carbon returns. Like nuclear power and tidal barrages, as well as improved wind/solar etc.
I like taking the train but every time I do I'm disappointed. At the moment we won't even contemplate it. Can't book in advance so fares are high, good chance it wont be running, weekends a total lottery. A lot to do with management and strategy but the strikes have just put the boot in. Whether the strikers are right or wrong to strike they are still just hastening the redundancies which are coming. Bit like the postal workers except rail could and should have a future unlike the letter post.
I wasn't very impressed with Mick Lynch on R4 earlier, he became very confrontational with the interviewer over the size of sacrifice that workers have made as a result of striking. Refused to answer and turned it into a diatribe on parroting the lines being reported in the RW press (Sun, Mail, etc.) when he could have easily answered and then got back to his point.
Was still better than the transport minister refusing to answer whether they'd introduced new criteria at the 11th hour and instead just saying literally the same things over and over again about 'a package of reforms'
I like taking the train but every time I do I’m disappointed. At the moment we won’t even contemplate it.
At the moment you'd have to be absolutely out of your mind to rely on the train to get you to work and back if you lived in the north of England.
Unfortunately it looks like the gulf between the two sides in this dispute is growing wider by the day and the differences becoming even more irreconcilable. It doesn't look like theres any compromise to be had on either side. The government have obviously decided that this is a battle they actively want, for idealogical reasons, as everything they do seems to be to antagonise the unions and escalate the dispute further
A lot to do with management and strategy but the strikes have just put the boot in. Whether the strikers are right or wrong to strike they are still just hastening the redundancies which are coming
^ that.
Yeah, have your 10% increase. But half of you are out of a job shortly.
Which, in light of climate change and low carbon public mass transport that the railways should be, is utterly crazy.
Last night I had to get to London and due to the train issues I took the car. But the reality is, even though I'm in a direct line to London, it's so unpredictable and expensive it's not always the best option. Strike or no no strike.
My car journey with incidents and weather was within 5 minutes there and back of my predicted (Google maps) time.
When I lived in Switzerland I didn't need a car.
Yeah, have your 10% increase. But half of you are out of a job shortly.
Which, in light of climate change and low carbon public mass transport that the railways should be, is utterly crazy.
Can you give me some examples when just taking a kicking has led to being in a stronger negotiating position to not continue taking a kicking? Are you assuming that this Government will at some point take sympathy on the bloodied bodies for not fighting back.
If they agree to a shity pay offer, it won't stop these ****s from reducing the workforce later.
I wasn’t very impressed with Mick Lynch on R4 earlier, he became very confrontational
that’s the second time I’ve heard him do this. He is very good at batting very straight bowled questions. As soon as it gets difficult or “controversial” he gets very angry and confrontational very quickly.
Does anyone else get the distinct impression that the rail workers are being set up as 'the enemy within' like the miners we're for Fatcha in the 80's?
And that they're about to give them a similar shoeing?
Does anyone else get the distinct impression that the rail workers are being set up as ‘the enemy within’ like the miners we’re for Fatcha in the 80’s?
That is the same for anyone the Tories don't like isn't it? Rail workers, nurses, judges, lawyers - always the enemy. It's a characteristic of populism - invent an enemy and then claim you're on the public's side against them.
Does anyone else get the distinct impression that the rail workers are being set up as ‘the enemy within’ like the miners we’re for Fatcha in the 80’s?And that they’re about to give them a similar shoeing?
Oh yeah, it's all a colossal distraction. Look over here at these woke snowflake rail workers / nurses / teachers demanding more money while we do some final asset stripping over there.
2016: We'll give £350m a week to the NHS
2020: clap for carers, they're all legends
2022: of course you can't have any more money, you should be privileged to get what you are
Basically the same on the railways - paint them as a bunch of dinosaurs unwilling to "modernise", turn the tide of public opinion against them...
I wasn’t very impressed with Mick Lynch on R4 earlier, he became very confrontational
No, it wasn't his finest hour, but he was better than Mark Harper a few minutes later, refusing to answer the question on whether he'd insisted that DOO be included in the offer.
