JY, please don't use that first comment if you are going for a CEO role!
Probably the most useful advice i will ever get on STW if I get the job I will hire you as a lacky for that top tip.
PS the wink may have given something away 🙄 but cheers for the patronising
Earlier Wednesday, France's power regulator Commission de Regulation de l'Energie recommended that regulated tariffs are substantially increased as soon as this summer to help power producer Electricité de France SA (EDF.FR) match its production and distribution costs.
I thought this was pretty clear tbh especially the bit where the govt said no
computer game design and creative arts (music, design etc) generally are quite successful export industries I believe.
Indeed they are but that does not mean that all we train in these industries get jobs in it
THM is doing pretty well trying to explain things to people who appear to know fk all about his subject, I applaud him for that 🙂
1. We do not try and do full employment.
I seem to remember reading that full employment is actually a bad thing for the economy in the long run, and everyone's actually worse off if we try for it. Of course, that's not the same as making some people long-term unemployed. If you have 0.5m unemployed each year, it's not necessarily the same 0.5m people.
2. The tory chancellor Lamont once said , rather famously, that unemployment was a price worth paying
A throw-away remark taken out of context by a **** 20 years ago - yeah good evidence, that's really sewn the debate up 🙂
THM is doing pretty well trying to explain things to people who appear to know fk all about his subject, I applaud him for that
Even if you think that's true, why does he have to be so pompous and condescending? I've read articles by Nobel-prize winning economists and they aren't constantly being massively patronising and trying to show off how much jargon they know, despite presumably knowing a fair bit more about the subject.
I didn't think he was being condescending.
If he was being condescending, I think he needs to increase his efficiency. I (and I'm sure, his shareholders) would have expected a far greater level of pomposity given the raw material he had to work with.
All I read was a pretty concise bit of information delivered in a light-hearted way. Poor show.
No he wasn't (but thanks mol!) And jargon use? Wow, to make the simple but important distinction between profits and profitability is hardly hiding behind jargon. And it is key.
But if it sounded patronising, then apologies (seriously). But for the grum, JY, Ernie troika to become overly sensitive about someone pointing out factual errors is a little bit funny when that seems to be one of their daily delights on STW!
But this is a thread about what to do in economically depressed areas such as certain parts of Wales. And the slight (unintended on my side) biff is valuable as it raises an important point about the role of government. Its easy to forget that governments do not have money on their own. They raise it from us and from those they borrow from. They have a responsibility to use that money in a sensible fashion, balancing often conflicting demands with the need ultimately to make a adequate return on both sources of funds. Successful urban regeneration does exactly that - most of the case studies show how different parties (public, private sectors, planners, local representatives etc) work TOGETHER to make successful projects work. This does not equate to throwing money down the drain or accepting bad investment returns - and to come back to EDF, yes a 6% ROCE when your cost of capital is circa 10% is a bad return. And who loses? The French taxpayer. So it really isn't that simple is it - and certainly not the case that the French government has devised this wonderful scheme to screw us to ensure that French people pay low utility bills. Perhaps that is why people much cleverer than me, writing in the WSJ conclude that something needs to be done to make the company viable eventually!
ernie_lynch - Member
especially as you're so tired.
Yes, you will have to excuse me. Tending to my closest relative dying in hospital is tiring I'm afraid. But thanks!
When we have our regular forays into subjects like this, THM's posts are the some of the most informative and unbiased. He's not condescending in the least IMHO
molgrips - MemberTHM is doing pretty well trying to explain things to people who appear to know fk all about his subject, I applaud him for that
So has he changed your mind then molgrips ?
On the previous page you said :
[i]Ernie - I'm not a rabid socialist, as I'm sure you know, but I do firmly believe that certain things should be nationalised. Utilities being one of them. [/i]
teamhurtmore then waded in to claim that EDF's UK operations were an example of poor business performance and that their £1.7 billion profit last year was unimpressive.
Has this changed your mind that utility companies "should be nationalised" ?
If it has, it does indeed give testimony to the claim that he can "explain things to people who appear to know fk all about his subject".
Perhaps he can offer his services to the French government who presumably know **** all and should ditch EDF's UK operations, as it continues to make profit from British consumers ?
Whether a utility company should be in public or private hands is a different question altogether.
My point was to ask whether a £1.7b profit was good, bad or neither since on its own it cannot be determined. Given that the company's cost of capital will be around 10%, then generating a return that is 4 percentage points (400bp for the jargon!) below that (6%) is not good performance. But if you want to pay CEOs handsomely to deliver that then so be it. I wouldn't. Judging by the very poor returns from EDFs share price since listing (2x as bad as the average French company roughly speaking) other agree with me!
And who loses? The French taxpayer.
French taxpayers are subsidising British consumers ! Brilliant ! 😀
Your follow up post to that was rather amusing .. I shall let him reply to you as you seem to fall in that camp as wellTHM is doing pretty well trying to explain things to people who appear to know fk all about his subject, I applaud him for that
But if it sounded patronising, then apologies (seriously). But for the grum, JY, Ernie troika to become overly sensitive about someone pointing out factual errors is a little bit funny when that seems to be one of their daily delights on STW!
What would your reply be to the "over sensitive" factually incorrect if you did choose to patronise the hypocrits?
You cannot help yourself can you [ that rhetorical by the way]
For you to apologise in that manner is a proper face palm moment if genuine and snidey if deliberate.
Binners is correct you are very knowledgeable on this and far more knowledgeable than the rest of us but I assume you are used to dealing with folk who know less than you and I doubt this is your pedagogical style
Sorry for you personal situation at this difficult time
Junkyard - lazarus
Sorry for you personal situation at this difficult time
Thank you JY. We rarely agree (but nice when we do!) but at least you are a gent. Appreciate the comment, its a bloody tough time.
But on the rest - go back a page. My first comment is about the need for a functioning banking system and why IMO EDF is not a business making vast profits (with a clear reason why). This is followed by some sarcy replies which I responded to in a factual manner. After more sarcasm, the basic point was grudgingly conceded. You still seemed to have an issue about the £1.7b, hence the slightly exasperated comment about profitability and CEO roles (poor low blow, sorry!).
Re the "not that simple stuff" - well it isnt is? Late at night is not the time and STW is not the place to go into why not. Hence the comment. In hindsight, I re-read the next morning, and recognised that is could have been misread. Hence the apology. But yes, it is rich for you guys (who I enjoy debating with) to get so touchy. Perhaps grum, given his ability to master the works of nobel-award winning economist could provide us all with an explanation of how edf works? It would be good to know as I can't understand the complexities of how and to what extent UK electricity is subsidising other activities including - current and future nuclearr energy in the UK, the expense of decommissioning nuclear plants in France etc. Now the CEO of edf has stated that the UK and France electricity are run as independent energies. Ernie's comments suggest that he is being "economical with the truth" which in his position is very serious/illegal. So who is right?
I await the simple, easy to understand, explanation of how this all works. But for me, it remains "not that simple, I'm afraid." I hope grum can help us all.
THM do you actually work in the City? I only ask cos I am down there occasionally myself 🙂
Not any more, but do visit quite regularly and may be tempted back one day! It would be hard to read STW with the old job!!
Well quite, they do work you quite hard there!
Ernie's comments suggest that he is being "economical with the truth" which in his position is very serious/illegal. So who is right?
Economical with what truth ? I said I thought EDF's UK operations, along with other utilities, could be nationalised and their profits used by the UK government.
You posted a comment claiming that you were unimpressed with EDF's UK profits, fair enough you're entitled to say that, and I've got no problem with it.
So where exactly is the bit where I have been "economical with the truth" ?
Ernie, you suggested yesterday that UK customers may be subsidising French consumers (among the sarcy comments). The CEO has publically stated that the two businesss are run independently without cross-subsidisation. So I am suggesting that you believe that he ( not you!) is being less than honest. You may be right. In which case that is very serious. So if someone could explain simply we would all benefit, wouldn't we?
teamhurtmore - MemberI hope grum can help us all.
Some people would call that a highly patronising comment. Personally I couldn't give a monkeys as it greatly amuses me when people behave like that, although I suspect it might bother grum.
Anyway it's all a bit of a red herring and tangent to the topic/OP. The crux with edf and others is the extent to which nuclear power and renewables should be subsidised and the transparency issues that go with it. But that is another thread.
EDF's UK operations is wholly owned by the French parent company which is in turn 85% owned by the French government. Where exactly do you think the £1.7 billion profit EDF made in the UK last year went?
Good question. I had a look but found it hard to get my head round, but here you go....
Loads of funnies to get your head round there, but beyond me.....
Good question. I had a look but found it hard to get my head round
I'm sorry I assumed you knew since you appeared to be criticizing my comment.
Anyway what's the answer ? I feel confident enough with my theory that as a rule the profits of a company go to its owners not to be bothered to read EDF's annual report. Unless of course after reading it yourself you can tell me otherwise.
In the meantime I will carry on assuming that a significant amount of EDF's £1.7 billion UK profit goes to the French government.
Perhaps grum, given his ability to master the works of nobel-award winning economist could provide us all with an explanation of how edf works? .....
I await the simple, easy to understand, explanation of how this all works. But for me, it remains "not that simple, I'm afraid." I hope grum can help us all.
Can you explain how this refutes what he said?
why does he have to be so pompous and condescending? I've read articles by Nobel-prize winning economists and they aren't constantly being massively patronising and trying to show off how much jargon they know, despite presumably knowing a fair bit more about the subject.
TBh given the above I am not sure that you do intentionally but you do indeed do it [ not saying you are never provoked either to be fair]
I am pretty sure ernie knows he is doing it and is trying to but he is correct on this issue IMHO
TBh given the above I am not sure that you do intentionally but you do indeed do it
He's far more restrained than many on here, and you and ernie are two of the worst in terms of arguing style.
OK - so they providers of capital (in this case largely the French state/taxpayers) invest in EDF at a cost of around 10%.
On this they currently receive a return of around 6% - [b]4 percentage points lower[/b].
Cost 10%, return 6%. Now [u]that is[/u] simple. Please tell me how this represents UK electricity consumers subsidising the French?
Again there is a difference between profits and profitability even if it is considered patronising to point this out. But the bottom line is that, in effect, EDF shareholders are subsiding the consumers not the other way around. Yes, there is a profit at the end of the year. Yes, this largely goes to French state (but look at annual report and see how/why equity capital (the bit they own) shrunk last year), but when seen in relation to providing this capital in the first place, they are making a negative return. Perhaps this explains why their share price performance has been so poor.
So to end my contribution to this thread, "merci mes amis francais, vous etes tres gentils" (apologies for any grammatical errors)
I am pretty sure ernie knows he is doing it
Of course - par for the course! Like him, I (normally) find it funny!
molgrips - MemberHe's far more restrained than many on here, and you and ernie are two of the worst in terms of arguing style.
I haven't even argued - as far as I'm aware I haven't contradicted anything teamhurtmore has said.
A couple of pages back he appears to have taken exception to my comment that every time I turn a light switch on a few pennies go into the French government's coffers.
After a bit of toing and froing over the next page or two, in which he explains how unimpressed he is with EDF's UK profits (why would I argue with that ?) it concludes with him not offering any evidence to suggest the contrary.
He's far more restrained than many on here, and you and ernie are two of the worst in terms of arguing style.
I am not claiming otherwise though I have largely tried to stop [I dont always achieve this - like you on a overtaking thread 😉 ] and dont think i have done anything on this thread tbh.
I am not going i am not condensing/patronising and then giving those replies.
Anyone enough navel gazing for me and I shall give THM the benefit of the doubt
Kindest regards with the difficult situation
Given my age and looking at the age of my parents and all my close friends the next decade is going to be a tough and shit one for us all. Few going through it now ..not good times at all.
[Cheers again JY - its is a truly shitty time of life, that it is difficult to prepare for. Decisions (eg, when to stop care, home/hospital etc seem easy until you have to make them) and British stiff-upper lip doesn't always help. 😉 Having a release valve with a bit of STW banter does though!]
Had the chat with my Mum about all this
I get her living with me till she goes mad or is too much like hard work- I told her she would only get a weekend with those rules 😉
I always thought knowing what she wanted would hep but , given what you say I suspect it wont.
Not much I can say to help but you have my sympathy
My folks are active and fit for the most part, but I know this stuff is coming. You have my sympathies
After reading the above posts, would I be correct in saying that it isn't the profits that are poor, it's the investment at 10% that has been poor. If this is the case, then is the share price subdued by the poor decisions made by the management of EDF and not by the £1.7 billion profit? How does that profit compare with other energy companies?
Cheers mol, anyway enough of such morbid talk, I don't want to hijack the thread any more (despite the appropriate title in my case!) and have already said au revoir (and merci) to this topic once!
After reading the above posts, would I be correct in saying that it isn't the profits that are poor, it's the investment at 10% that has been poor.
I think investment in this sector(apart from windfarms and the like) has been poor, indecision over whether to build the next generation of power stations hasn't helped.
On the profit side, those who own the energy companies have been milking it for a long time.
So this thread has gone from the Welsh valleys to EDF's profit margins, and probably didn't even take seven degrees of separation or anyone knowing Kevin Bacon.
enough navel gazing for me .........
It's sad that this thread effectively got derailed by a completely pointless discussion about EDF. Especially as I'm none the wiser concerning who's disagreeing with what. I really need to be more selective about whether I bother to respond in the future, even if a comment is directed at me.
.
its is a truly shitty time of life, that it is difficult to prepare for. Decisions (eg, when to stop care, home/hospital etc seem easy until you have to make them)
It's just crap. Life can be an experience of incredible lows as well as incredible highs. Old age, failing health, and the inevitable end, are all unfortunately the price which has to be paid for the gift of life. But it's hard, very hard. Young children remind us of the positive part of the deal during difficult times like this.
