[Closed] The transformation of Gordon Brown

Don't mention Pensions....

Has to be a troll, surely. The man is an incompetent buffoon to be wheeled out whenever the Labour party need a "big hitter" to give them some gravitas.

incompetent buffoon

Which is what I have always thought, except that his may be the only voice people will listen to from the 'IN' side in the EU debate.

I don't know how you feel about that, obviously, but I, for one, am glad of his intervention. So I say, 'wheel him out'.

Other than him having the sense to keep us out the Euro, I've always thought of him as an idiot, but his speech on the devolution referendum and now this one have shown him in a different light.

When they are not scrabbling for power a lot of the elder statesman do come across a lot better - John Major, William Hague spring to mind, though your views may vary. They seem a bit more rational, capable of seeing the bigger picture.

Shame they are all dicks when actually in power.

He can say what he likes, most folk stopped listening years ago. Having said that, he's been wrong about practically every major decision he's ever made, so if he's for remaining then we should probably leave.

Other than him having the sense to keep us out the Euro, I've always thought of him as an idiot

This is the bit I agree with and I think that one of the major reasons he didn't want to go into the Euro is that he would have been called out for spending money we didn't have like a drunken sailor with an itchy cock.

Don't mention Pensions...

Or the gold. Or the abolition of boom and bust.

I've always admired him.

I think a few of you are being rather unfair, to say the least.

Don't mention Pensions....

What, his?

He gets £100,000+ ex Prime Ministers pension, even though no-one voted him into the job. No wonder he was so cavalier with other peoples.

Don't forget him using anti-terror legislation to get money out of the Icelanders when the banks went pop. He's still hated there for that little stunt.

I know he was recast as the "incompetent buffoon" during his premiership and after the financial crisis, and certainly he clearly didn't have the persona for leadership, but he does deserve some credit for a few other things. His interventions when the credit crunch hit are widely credited by most economic experts as preventing things from getting much worse much more quickly. He also kept us out of the Euro and was mostly successful as chancellor.

He failed to spot the financial crisis coming, and didn't realise that the banking sector had become dangerously under regulated during the previous conservative government, but I'm not sure that any mainstream politician did, and I'm fairly sure that it wasn't within any one country's governments power to prevent it anyway.

Clearly flawed in many ways, but I do think he has more to him than the incompetent buffoon.

Don't mention Pensions....
What, his?

I'd guess that the comment relates more to the deregulation of pension fund investments (removing restrictions on the sort of stuff funds could invest / gamble [b]our[/b] money on) which is a major contributory factor to the stories we keep hearing about mahoosive pension liabilities (Tata Steel, BHS).

Don't mention Pensions....

Are you referring to the continuation of the Tory policy of raiding pensions to bolster treasury coffers? Or is it that he removed the contribution limit to personal pensions which has since be cut by the current government?

at oldejeans... the facts suggest otherwise! By any objective measure he's the worst PM (and one of the worst chancellors) we've ever had, and he's up against some stiff competition

What, his?
He gets £100,000+ ex Prime Ministers pension, even though no-one voted him into the job. No wonder he was so cavalier with other peoples.

He failed to spot the financial crisis coming, and didn't realise that the banking sector had become dangerously under regulated during the previous conservative government, but I'm not sure that any mainstream politician did, and I'm fairly sure that it wasn't within any one country's governments power to prevent it anyway.

I think Vince Cable called it beforehand, as did many financial operators / commentators..

his interventions in the Scottish Referendum debate, and now the EU debate have reflected a real 'elder statesman' quality he never showed before

What this tells us is that the top jobs are in fact poisoned chalices. You can't do what you would like to do, or act on your principles, because you're pinned down. See Obama also.

And what THAT tells us is not to take what politicians say at face value, because they can't really say in public what they mean, and they can't do what they'd like.

and didn't realise that the banking sector had become dangerously under regulated during the previous conservative government, but I'm not sure that any mainstream politician did

He may well have done, but wasn't able to act. The government really aren't in charge of some things, you know.

Don't forget him using anti-terror legislation to get money out of the Icelanders when the banks went pop.

Or the gold

That was a bit of often quoted silliness.

There's no way the price of gold could've been predicted for the next decade, and secondly you could accuse the same of Cameron for not selling in 2011 at the top of the recent market.

Brown and Blair were the reason why this voter deserted Labour eighteen years.

Their economic policies helped to kill social mobility, the housing market was allowed to overcook, pension protection legislation was watered down, then there's the issue over Britain's gold reserves which were sold off for a song. I didn't much care for the appointment of Damian McBride either.

But, I have a friend of mine who knows Gordon Brown personally. Apparently he's a very warm, kind man in private.

You won't find me defending much about New Labour, but had Gordon called an election within six weeks of becoming PM, he'd pretty much have been guaranteed victory.

When they are not scrabbling for power a lot of the elder statesman do come across a lot better - John Major, William Hague spring to mind, though your views may vary. They seem a bit more rational, capable of seeing the bigger picture.

Shame they are all dicks when actually in power.

Except for Blair - he's still a cock.

That was a bit of often quoted silliness.

@Saxon agreed, also the dignity he showed when leaving office showed his character. However as above he did cut my pension by 25% and his management if the aftermath of the crises was a disaster 😐

Except for Blair - he's still a cock.

^ This x1 million.

I think he's very clever, he's just go no charisma, and is either terrible at explaining his decisions, or no-one listens.

Regarding the gold sell off, i read this a while back. No idea if it's true, but it seems to explain a few things
http://www.zerohedge.com/contributed/2012-07-10/gordon-brown-sold-britain%E2%80%99s-gold-artificially-low-prices-bail-out-large-ameri

Basically banks had shorted gold to the extent it threatened financial stability, so Gordon Brown sold Britains gold as cheaply as possible, by announcing the sale in advance, and by selling it at auction.

I think Vince Cable called it beforehand, as did many financial operators / commentators..

If you keep saying something eventually it will happen. Give it a few billion years and Pigs will probably evolve wings and fly. It doesn't mean predicting it makes the predictor a genius.

Even if he had 'called it', it would still have happened, it started in the US where there was even less regulation, and mortgages are given on the house not to the person, so if you get into negative equity you just hand the keys back and it's no longer your problem. Hence why whole neighborhoods have been abandoned, once prices drop it's much easier to just cut your losses and walk.

In fact calling it would probably have caused it to happen, regulation at that point would just have lead to less credit, and we'd all be here saying it's Browns fault for over regulating the banks and cutting off credit to businesses.

I'm not a fanboy or anything, but I struggled to understand the hatred he seemed to attract from some quarters.

But I'd rather have dour and awkward politicians than smarmy pricks like Blair or Cameron.

Or the gold.

Oh yes - the gold! Our Gold!

Maybe you should read up on why he sold it..?

I don't find Brown as offensive as many politicians, he had to live in the shadow of Blair for many years which must of driven him batshit crazy at times.

He is painted as a buffoon by the Murdoch/ right wing press, what a surprise.

I know a lot of people who lived high on the hog under Blair when he was chancellor, they weren't complaining about his or his policies then.

For the idiots among us who just seem unable to grasp this simple fact, the Labour party did not cause the economic crisis !!! The people who did are still out there and still screwing about.

I do have some time for him, he just seemed crushed by a decade and a half of both Government and scrapping with Blair's crew. He seems much happier now.

He made some decisions which, with the information available at the time were totally sensible but look bad with hindsight but I do feel that the concerns of the wider public were central to what he was tying to do unlike the current batch of smarmy, smug backstabbers who just want to run everything down so they can sell it of to their chums. (See the Post office for details, the NHS is work in progress)

Flawed? definitely, but a conviction politician who survived a very long time at the top with nary a whif of real scandal or corruption being aimed at him and I can respect him for that.

his management if the aftermath of the crises was a disaster

I'm not sure this is at all true. His actions are generally credited with helping the UK avoid Iceland level disaster, and he was pretty important in coordinating G20 and European wide interventions.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/feb/06/gordon-brown-save-world-uk

Maybe you should read up on why he sold it..?

That was a bit of often quoted silliness.

It is not the quoting of it that was the silliness. Raiding the family savings account to throw cash about isn't wise. Selling a lot of something on an open market at that bottom of that market and announcing it in advance is pure ****tery.

I have a friend of mine who knows Gordon Brown personally. Apparently he's a very warm, kind man in private

Because he was a spendthrift **** who couldn't run a surplus during the biggest boom years we have ever seen?

Governments, and especially the Tories hardly ever run surpluses.

Gordon Brown - when he was chancellor ran a surplus for 4 consecutive years.

I think the previous Tory run was 2 years for surplus.

It is not the quoting of it that was the silliness. Raiding the family savings account to throw cash about isn't wise. Selling a lot of something on an open market at that bottom of that market and announcing it in advance is pure ****tery.

No it's not at all.

The argument would be to sell it off and replace with something that generates more money. Now I will agree timing was off - but he would've taken advice on that. And I refer you to the fact nobody knew it was going to increase and then decrease again, as with all investments.

I would actually argue the same for Cameron - why not sell it off at the top in 2011 if the opposition was so smart? It would've been a good sell-off and then if you want the family 'gold' so much it could've been bought back at a much lower price.

Gordon Brown - when he was chancellor ran a surplus for 4 consecutive years.

It still ended in near bankruptcy and shame though, didn't it. Just like every other Labour govt we've ever had.

don't tell me mike p - was GB also responsible for the financial crises in the US, Spain, Portugal, Ireland, Italy, Greece, Argentina, Brazil.........?

It still ended in near bankruptcy and shame though, didn't it. Just like every other Labour govt we've ever had.

Tories spend and spend, they just spend differently to Labour. Hardly the economic shining example you think.

Mostly countries whose economies were also built on imprudent levels of debt (and corruption in the case of the S Americans). Try Australia or Canada.

Gordon Brown is the personification of of how media driven our opinions are.
He didn't do too much wrong as either Chancellor or PM, at least in the context of perpetuating a globalized Capitalist economic system.
Blair hated (feared) him and used his media pals to run him down. That same media then had an instant scapegoat when the shit hit the fan.
Now he's not part of the system any more, the media have no reason to tell us he's an idiot (which he definitely is not), hence the warmer light he's being cast in.

Unfortunately, he'll have to wait for the revisionists before he can expect any credit...

No it wasn't! [b]He[/b] shouldn't have sold the reserves to begin with

It was a Treasury Plan (civil service) their logic was, we held too much in a volatile commodity. the price of which was far too unpredictable. The Sale generated about 11billion (but cost us in adjusted prices about 3billion) we still have over 300 tonnes in reserve. Plus just for balance, it we're going to criticize him for the gold sell off, then we have to applaud the 3G auction sell off, which generated 22 billion and the money went straight to paying off debt.

so in balance mild fail on gold, massive win on 3G...we (the public) came out alright.

Australia, certainly, and to a lesser extent Canada have reaped the benefits of an unprecedented commodities boom which protected them from the 2008 GFC

The UK hasn't suffered anywhere near as much as the other countries that I mentioned.

It's a myth that only Labour govts mismanage the economy. You're letting yourself down by perpetuating such a simplistic view of UK politics.

Governments, and especially the Tories hardly ever run surpluses.

Gordon Brown - when he was chancellor ran a surplus for 4 consecutive years.

wrecker - Member

No it wasn't! He shouldn't have sold the reserves to begin with, never mind the prices AND it was still at it's lowest for 20 years before!

They announced the sale in advance to drive down the price.

It helped tremendously for those who were short on gold at the time though, so that's cool. 8)

[url= http://www.zerohedge.com/contributed/2012-07-10/gordon-brown-sold-britain%E2%80%99s-gold-artificially-low-prices-bail-out-large-ameri ]http://www.zerohedge.com/contributed/2012-07-10/gordon-brown-sold-britain%E2%80%99s-gold-artificially-low-prices-bail-out-large-ameri[/url]

Mostly countries whose economies were also built on imprudent levels of debt

But it was the levels of private and bank debt that caused the issue, it was nothing to do with public debt. Preventing that would have required banking/loan regulation, and the worry was that regulation in the UK would make us less competitive in a worldwide marketplace.

It was, and is, a global problem, and it's not like the Conservatives supported regulation at the time or have solved the problem since, and neither has any other country, so it's hardly as simple as a Labour only mismanagement issue

@olde

GB might have done something about blatant mortgage fraud in the period 2005-7, he might have tightened regualtions in particular on those banks most exposed like Northern Rock and Halifax-Bank of Scotland
GB might have better managed the fallout in particular the bailout of RBS (too generous)
GB might not have pushed Lloyds a well run healthy bank into buying the bust HBOS bending the rules to facilitate it
GB might have responded to the crises by reigning in spending in the light of impending collapse in tax receipts

Name me one other major country which sold its Gold reserves at a similar point in time. Gordon took a flier and got it spectacuarly wrong

then there's the issue over Britain's gold reserves

FFS! Not the bloody gold reserves again. Who cares? It's not like you'd ever get your hands on any of it, and it wouldn't have been used for any public good. And since when did we start judging past governments on their failure to predict the future?

It still ended in near bankruptcy

Did it? When did we nearly go bankrupt? Or are you confusing personal finances with those of a nation state with it's own central bank?

and shame

I wasn't ashamed. Why should I be ashamed because public funds had to be used to rescue a corrupt and incompetent industry? Surely it's a source of pride that we were able to stop it turning into an extended depression?

Just like every other Labour govt we've ever had.

Have you been reading the sun?

[s]Gordon[/s] The Treasury took a flier and got it spectacuarly wrong

Is what you meant, surely...

I don't find Brown as offensive as many politicians, he had to live in the shadow of Blair for many years which must of driven him batshit crazy at times.

Absolutely, his need to be in the ultimate job crippled the effectiveness of the government, and then when he finally achieved what he regarded as his destiny, he didn't seem to know what to do with it.

He was an excellent mp for his constituency...well liked in kirkcaldy by all accounts

I still think he's an idiot, where this idea that he is clever comes from I'm to sure. Having a PhD in the history of your own party hardly means you are clever, took him 10 years as well!!

He loved stealth taxes and increasing National Insurance was an awful policy. I'm very dubious how well the whole Bank of England / FSA split worked. But then this is a guy who think you can have a 0% increase!!

Only good thing he did was keep us out of the Euro.

3 I think. 1999, 2000 and 2001. Attributing this to Brown is nonsense as I am sure you know. The following 8 years were ever increasing deficit.

You can't very well criticism him for the ruining the economy and then not reflect on his time as Chancellor.

Goal posts.

1998 too. So it was four.

Except for Blair - he's still a cock.

Well that seemed so blatantly obvious I didn't think I needed to say it!

The monstering he received by the press was quite impressive, even Milliband didnt come in for that much bile (apart from the DM nazi dad guff)

His belief in 'the market' was his downfall, his golden rule was very good, if only hed stuck to it and keeping us out of the Euro was something Major had set us on the road to, so he did well there.

The gold sell off was poorly handled but way overhyped and lapped up by the easily led.

Ultimately his inability to manage (the press, PR, his cabinet) the way Tony did was what really stuffed him including not turning your mic off after encountering a biggot 😉

I think he was a more conscientous politician than hes given credit for...
the Minimum Wage, Sure Start, the Winter Fuel Allowance, the Child Trust Fund, the Child Tax Credit and paid paternity leave all under him
He and his wife also do a lot of charity work around pregnancy education in the developing world etc
Thats set against him being a very Tory chancellor, deregulate away, dont like pensions as they keep money out of the economy way of doing things that Nigel lawson started.
Its fairly obvious that had Osborne been in power at the time of the crash he'd have done no better and probably much worse, considering how hes managing to not handle the debt and still crush the welfare state

He also saved Cameron's bacon in the Scotland referendum, but that cost labour dearly

Ultimately his inability to manage (the press, PR, his cabinet) the way Tony did was what really stuffed him

And his belief in the failed Iraq adventure and 42 days detention didn't help...when even the Lords tell you it's anti-democratic you should know you're onto a loser...

He also saved Cameron's bacon in the Scotland referendum

This is jurno revisionism, there is no evidence he made any impact.

Gordi had a game of two halves - pretty good IH then hubris set in ("end of boom and bust") and it all went pear-shaped for him and for us. Sad but not atypical story.

Let's not forget that he is on record for single-handedly saving Scotland (2015) and the World from the Global Financial Crisis (2008). That's some achievement that few others have achieved.

You could call him the British Hasslehoff 😆

This is jurno revisionism, there is no evidence he made any impact.

Who can say what led people to vote how they did , but some polls the day b4 had shown the first lead for no, his speech had over 1/4 million views that day just on youtube.
(This was all debated at length on the Scot Indy thread, there's graphs n everything on there, but no way I'm trawling thru all that).

oh go on

[img] [/img]
Your average Scottish voter must really despise Cameron and co, they keep voting in the SNP after all !!!,the No camp were in dire straights b4 super gordie stepped up, he reached parts of the electorate there that your average Eton Tory couldn't touch with a king size deep fried mars bar

Gordon took a flier and got it spectacuarly wrong

And with your Jambafacts on here the same can be said of you 😆

History will record Brown as a very competent manager, but not really a leader. Great when the problem is clear but not great at identifying the problem.

Read all your pluses and minuses about him back through that filter and you'll probably get most to fit.

And I also know someone who knows him and reckons he's a very decent human being. The same guy is rather less complimentary about Blair.

PS - isn't Jamba one of the money men who caused the financial crash? Sure he was bragging about his financial deals a week of two ago.

History will record Brown as a very competent manager, but not really a leader. Great when the problem is clear but not great at identifying the problem.

+1

He did handle the aftermath of the 2008 crash very well.

The gold things is just noise, wouldn't make the slightest dent in the current national debt...

Try Australia or Canada.

the idiots among us who just seem unable to grasp this simple fact, the Labour party did not cause the economic crisis !!!

At least you know you're dealing with an idiot when you hear that trotted out. Some people believe what they want to. Facts don't seem to make any difference.

I'd be really pissed off at Gordon Brown if I was Greece, what with him and his party causing the global economic crisis... 🙄

Brown played his part in turning labour into new labour /red tories. Hubris certainly struck after his successful early spell as chancellor. IMO he became very out of touch and could be seen as a symbol of how "Scottish" Labour took its supporters completely for granted and treated them with disdain. His interventions in the indy ref antagonised as many as they encouraged, and we are still waitng on that "almost federal" parliament. The great klunking fist has become a great klunking twit.

Gordon Browns tripartite system for deregulating banking was found to be one of the key reasons for Britain being so heavily hit in the last recession, according to a report by The House of Lords Economics Affairs Committee. Those claiming it was down to the Conservatives are plain wrong.

Gordon Browns tripartite system for deregulating banking was found to be one of the key reasons for Britain being so heavily hit in the last recession, according to a report by The House of Lords Economics Affairs Committee. Those claiming it was down to the Conservatives are plain wrong.

It was a contributory factor along with many deregulations which started under Nigel Lawson in the 80s.

Those thinking you can blame it on any one PM / Chancellor are just idiots.

Ultimately if the banks hadn't deliberately set out to mask poor quality loans and sell them as AAA debt, you wouldn't have needed better regulators.....

Ultimately if the banks hadn't deliberately set out to mask poor quality loans and sell them as AAA debt, you wouldn't have needed better regulators..

Regulation of the Debt markets increased under Lawson, it was the equity markets that were deregulated.

Isn't Australia in the process of going into downturn as their entire economy for the last 15 years has been based on exporting raw materials to China?