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But whats the best advice* for those upcoming conditions in terms of avalanche risk
Strictly sticking to the piste, you should have no cause for concern.
Before leaving the patrolled/controlled areas either hire a suitably qualified person or:
- Do an Avalance Awareness Course
- Read the local avalanche reports and be able to interpret the detail
- Carry beacon, shovel and probe and know how to use them.
Initial reports are that other parties in the Val Veny area started searching for victims. You are not just carrying backcountry gear for yourself but for the people you are with etc ...
Initial risk flags are:
- Recent snowfall
- Rising Temps
- Wind
All three were prevalent today here in Courmayeur.
I'd assume / hope that they won't open pistes until they've controlled the surrounding terrain? I'm very much North American and so in that case you'd be good if you remain between the markers...
Having said that on powder days I do wear my beacon.
Otherwise as per Digby but I'd add....
Most avalanches occur in the 30-40Deg range (Red / Black) so blues probably lower risk.
Think consequence - smaller slopes generally lower consequence but also can you be carried into trees / over cliffs etc.
I'd assume / hope that they won't open pistes until they've controlled the surrounding terrain?
Absolutley. They're pretty meticulous about all that as youd expect.
As I said, I dont stray from the piste more than a few yards, but what I was trying to get at, is what is the mechanism that makes the current and forecast conditions ones to be exceptionally wary about.
I don't doubt an off piste avalanche course is one of those things "that's nice to know", but in reality, 90% of piste riders transfer that part of mountain awareness onto the resort operators.
Ah - well then I'd say as per Digby that any one of rising temps, recent snowfall or moderate wind speeds is an indicator of rising avalanche risk. It sounds like you've got all 3 😯 so extra caution.
Looking at the way the snowpack is now pre-fall, temp variations and wind blown snow which will have varying moisture levels. Who knows but that amount of fresh with fluctuating temps will create an interesting set of layers.
cheers Mark, useful
M
Heading out to Whistler again on Wednesday so credit cards are coming with....just in case?
You'll be pleased to know we're just heading into another storm cycle, with the FL near the valley floor. It had gotten a bit hard and icy recently but the last few days have freshened everything up nicely and it's to continue for the next week or so by the looks of it.
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Finally hit this line today. Wanted to do it for a while, but always looked a bit intimidating. Actually not too bad once you got through the rocks poking out at the top!
Actually hard and icy or just icy by Whistler standards 8)
I took a visiting Whistler local to the front side of Louise and he claimed the blue end of the mens DH was more terrifying for him than a double black in Whistler 😆
@whatnobeer...thanks for the update, that's good to know. Where is that line then?
Actually hard and icy or just icy by Whistler standardsI took a visiting Whistler local to the front side of Louise and he claimed the blue end of the mens DH was more terrifying for him than a double black in Whistler
Ha! Actually hard and icy. You might of been ok with some narrow skis with edges, but I was stuggling on my Q-labs. Higher up ok but down the lower half of Peak to Creek was like an ice rink. A lot of people going sideways and not many turns :p
@whatnobeer...thanks for the update, that's good to know. Where is that line then?
That's the high entrance to Sapphire bowl, skiers right from the top of Spankys Ladder.
Know where you are, thanks.
Stoner - how's your French? It's pretty easy to understand even with my sporadic French and highlights the main dangers: [url= http://www.meteofrance.com/previsions-meteo-montagne/bulletin-avalanches/chablais/OPP01 ]French Avi Report - PDS[/url]
Here's the Swiss one - this one is available in English - if you click the right area it gives you a nice background on the snowpack and risks: [url= http://www.slf.ch/lawinenbulletin/lawinengefahr/index_EN ]Swiss Avi Report[/url]
And here's a really good avalanche basics guide: [url= https://www.ortovox.com/uk/safety-academy/training-tools/safety-academy-guide-book/winter/ ]Ortovox Avalanche Info[/url]
Stoner main advice I'd give you is get some off piste tuition ! Make the most of fresh snow to get some trunes in along side the Blues and flatter parts of the reds, need to work on your smooth linked carving turns on the piste too.
Avalanche danger in-bounds is pretty limited, the resorts do a good job of keeping it that way. If on the slack country just watch for steeper slopes (eg 30 degrees) either when you are on them or if they are up above you.
Conditions in Sainte Foy looked amazing this week for White Room's back-country / touring week
whats the closest/easist resort to get to from geneva for a day? public transport?
got a work trip that involves flying in/out of geneva and would be easy to tack a day or so on and get up on some snow?
chamonix? samoens/flaine area?
igm - Member
Out in Denver. I can see snow in the foothills, but all work - no time to visit the slopes.
Sorry to gloat, but in Heathrow waiting for my flight to Denver. Go me. Sorry.
[quote=jam bo ]whats the closest/easist resort to get to from geneva for a day? public transport?
got a work trip that involves flying in/out of geneva and would be easy to tack a day or so on and get up on some snow?
chamonix? samoens/flaine area?
the very closest is Crozet (the main base is Lélex), which is on the outskirts
https://goo.gl/maps/T1ySn7io3o92
or have a look here
https://www.j2ski.com/ski_resorts/Airports/Ski_Resorts_Near_Geneva_Map.html
Old school - just came back in through Heathrow
Jam bo - closest is an hour, go where snow is best Les Gets/La Clusaz/Chamonix/Megeve/... Verbier is 1hr 40 mins and less to lift at Les Chables in the valley. TBH the pickup/car rental can take longer than the drive sometimes 😐
Just watched this Chatel Avalanche film, from 2015 not seen before. Worth the 12 mins imho. Will comment later.
http://freeskier.com/videos/watch-bone-chilling-avalanche-rescue-in-chatel-france
On-piste on Saturday !
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Nice! Looks deep!
We had fun too. Very much off piste though.
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Edukator and WhatNo - both very nice. Stevo from WhiteRoom says its really dumping in Ste Foy 🙂
my girlfriend loved it in val d'isere. i spent the week with her on greens and every now and then riding down myself. was great fun and i'd go aagin 🙂
Very interesting avalanche video! Thanks for posting jambalaya - I hadn't seen that before.
My initial thoughts were:
It very much showed how 'panic' can occur in such intense situations.
But his practice/training with his beacon paid off as without it he would have most likely struggled to locate Denis within 15 minutes.
The transition from 'coarse search' to 'fine search' and pin-pointing Denis and getting the shovel & probe out and used was excruciating to watch but I guess quite understandable given the panic/relief of the situation - just goes to reinforce the 'mantra' ... practice, practice, practice ...
Denis was very fortunate to have an air pocket.
@ whatnobeer - that looks fantastic ... gotta love tree riding in BC! 8)
Digby. Agreed, no beacon no finding his mate imho. Interested me that the steep pitch which I imagine triggered it immediately went into a fairly shallow pitch (on video of course could be steeper than it appered) which then slid a long way taking him with it. Also incredibly lucky his mate had visual on him and without that I certanly would have watsed a lot of time searching even with the beacon (it was a long slide), he was able to ski down with a decent idea of where his mate was.
Jedi (as I said on the pm) I love it there, something for everyone on and off the slopes. The off-piste is fabulous from easy to 'kin hard and a lot of it very accessible via a short hike or even off the lifts. We've done the favourite resorts list before on here but mine are Val/St Anton/Verbier/Jackson Hole in US.
on video of course could be steeper than it appered
Yeah - it never ceases to amaze me how 40+ degree slopes look like 30+ degree slopes on a PoV camera ... there were some pretty big blocks of snow there as well - some that had continued to slide on the surface after the much of it had stopped.
I'm guessing it was the shock loading of him hucking the cliff that triggered what looked like quite a deep but 'dry' slab - it certainly didn't appear to have 'set' like concrete as I've seen happen:- The snow they were digging Denis out of still had a slight powdery consistency.
Also incredibly lucky his mate had visual on him
100% agreed jambalya - although I would like to think they were skiing one at a time as a precaution rather than luck ...
Interestingly (for some perhaps), the avalanche in Courmayeur last week that killed 3 and injured 5, took place in an area where multiple groups totaling about 18 people ended up aggregating - highlighting the difficulties in 'group management' in the Backcountry. It was described as being like a 'battle zone' ... 😥
I also note that the fatalities in Italy last week seemingly received much less press coverage and media attention that the recent Tignes avalanche victims.
I wonder if the mainstream media are becoming 'hardened' to the increasing numbers of fatalities in the mountains?
The day after the incident loads of people (myself included) were taking the same traverse off piste to access the 'slack-country' as if nothing had happened - rather like when people slow down for a brief time after passing an RTA ... and then carry on speeding
Sitting on the plane in Turin feeling totally wasted. Serre Chevalier was all I remembered and much more. Just a fantastic playground where the pistes play second to the rest of the rest of the area which is just amazing terrain for fun skiing. Did masses of off piste stuff but this morning we were stuck above Briancon as the lifts across to Chantemerle were closed. The piste had a foot of powder on it, so just shattered after five hours of that. #specialplace
Interesting comments Digby. Looked quite fresh (from the digging) so I am guessing it was a lot of fresh snow on a frozen base and the slab slid off as you say from the "huck in". Anyone else ?
Happy times Rockape 🙂
Just a fantastic playground where the pistes play second to the rest of the rest of the area which is just amazing terrain for fun skiing
Don't tell everyone! 8)
Anyone else ?
No avi expert so not much to offer on top of Digby's more informed comments - but being STW I will anyway..
My main thought was that the rescuer did a good job traversing across the debris, shouting for contact, calling for help and paying attention to his beeper.
Strikes me it might be a lot harder to navigate a debris field on a snowboard - so that'd be more time wasted clipping out and trying to walk while doing the coarse search.
From an Armchair Expert, the shovelling looked a bit chaotic and almost got the guy in the face (aren't you meant to start shovelling from below the victim?) but totally understandable in the heat of the moment. Must be a terrifying thing for everyone involved. Main thing is they got the guy out and he was ok.
Rescuer did a great job IMHO. I thought he took a bit of a risk traversing across to the avalanche from where he was watching from. But he had no choice really.
Did well to shout for help, "call 112" (Every day's a school day, I didn't know that)
Painfull to watch it all unfold, extra helpers didn't have shovels. He did organise them well though, getting them to clear out behind him and to look out for secondary slides.
Good watch, thanks for posting.
Another one. Tignes.
🙁
Off to Les Gets on Sat for a week so snow is well timed.
Will be a powderkeg though with bad base, fluctuting temps and then a variable temp heavy snowfall. Tignes/Val etc and all the steep resorts will have 4-5 avi risks for a while. Looking at forward temps it will be v risky. I see theres a reportin Tignes already - be careful careful out there folks, likely some desperation as such a sparse snow season as well which may cloud judgement.
Big slide in Tignes, came across a blue piste but confirmed that no one buried. Very lucky!!
NZCol - Member
Off to Les Gets on Sat for a week so snow is well timed.
Flying out from Edinburgh on Sat for a week in Les Gets too. Cheers Stoner for the previous transfer recommendation, booked with Alp Nav in the end. Massively looking forward to it esp with the recent snow, though as above can see avi risks remaining high for a while.
DougD - we're going from Glasgow for some reason with Ski Famille.
Big slide in Tignes, came across a blue piste but confirmed that no one buried.
That means I can look forward to another ear-bashing from my FiL about putting his grandchildren in "unnecessary danger" by taking them skiing. 🙄
Interesting that the BBC report says [i]"The avalanche risk at Tignes was said to be four on a scale of five, and part of the resort had been closed to skiers"[/i] but doesn't clarify if that closure included the piste that was hit.
French sites say piste and lift was open at the time. 4/5 in Tignes is BAD.
NZCol - which chalet you in?
French sites say piste and lift was open at the time.
Oooft! That's not good.
I suspect some poor [i]pisteur[/i] will be getting their [i]derriere[/i] felt then!
Le Marjorie
Yep, piste open and one of the few that was as they'd yet to open much else in the resort due to avi control.
We were in Majorie week before last. There was a big Kiwi named Jake running the place. Nice chalet.
Morning tip get the navette down to the Perrieres lift for a faster link in to the bowl than fighting the ski schools at the Chavannes.
igm I think you where there last week of French half term hols, should be less busy now.
We were. Perrieres still absolutely empty during the week - busier at weekends.
igm - thanks for the tips, never been there so good to know.
Was out in Les Gets too at same time as IGM. Good to bump into you Iain 🙂
We were using the Perrier too to get into the bowl quickly and it was great for a first few runs in the morning. Seen some updates from the chalet we stayed in and the garden was clear of snow last week (like late spring) but is now buried under 70 - 80 cm. Looks great. The snow up high on Poite de Nyon was good but a bit icy in parts and lower down it was thin/slushy - be interesting to see how all the new snow holds onto that base.
Nbt and myself have picked a super week in Passo Tonale. Plenty of snow and cold, looking as though it could last a while. Had an excellant lesson this morning. The instructor took us up to the Presena glacier. Very cold and windy but fabulous conditions on the red and black. Not so good on the Ponte Di Legno side, but that's because we've been spoiled in our area.
The lessons were completed with nbt and myself getting our certificates for silver level, both ticked as 'good'. I think nbt is a bit miffed as he's a much better skier than myself.
Waves at chimp
Loving this...!
Loads of fresh powder in the grand Massif over the last 2 days, the visibility has improved this morning and it is lining up for a great day to play in the powder. Hopefully the links will open and we can go roaming.
If anyone wants a last minute holiday at the moment the conditions are wonderful.
Oooft! That's not good.
I suspect some poor pisteur will be getting their derriere felt then!
Thankfully inbound/on-piste slides when runs are open are pretty rare (I remember one in Fernie years ago that came quite a long was down Lizzard Bowl).
I think pisteurs/patrollers do a pretty amazing job - it's a tough job to balance safety and keeping runs open for the enjoyment of clients - it will be interesting to know whether this recent Tignes slide was a 'natural' release or triggered by a skier/rider. Thankfully no one was injured.
Looks like there has been some epic snowfalls over many Italian & French resorts. Have fun folks and stay safe!
inbound/on-piste slides when runs are open are pretty rare.. pisteurs/patrollers do a pretty amazing job
Absolutely. Henry (from HAT) was quick to make the same points yesterday when he was being interviewed for Sky News, despite the typically inane line of 24hr "news" questions.
Absolutely. Henry (from HAT) was quick to make the same points yesterday when he was being interviewed for Sky News
I've been fortunate enough to spend time with the Pro-Patrollers in Fernie and the Avalanche Rescue Dog handlers - nothing short of inspirational!
And there's nothing brings a smile to my face more than seeing a dog riding a chair lift or a skidoo/sled with its paws on the handlebars ... 😆
Henry was on Sky, they'll have fat iDave on there next advising about fad diets.
Flashy - That chap in the video above is wearing my old ski suit (and very fetching it is to). 🙂
The reds and black from the Presena glacier were in tip top condition this morning.
To top the day off, I spotted an eagle, before you ask, it wasn't Eddie.
Yeah!CaptainFlashheart - Member
Loving this...!
For some of us the "windscreen-wiper" turn will never die 😳
Just got back from a tremendous mini break in Austria.
Day 1 in Obertauern - hadn't been there before and was pleasantly surprised. It wasn't as bleak as I somehow thought it would be, the apres was very lively and a great kebab for dinner too! 😆 Vis was a bit poor on the day but the snow was good.
Day 2 in Turracher Hohe - oh my god, this place is heaven. It's a small resort with not very steep runs, but it is stunning. And deserted. I'm a much better skier than last time I visited and managed to enjoy a lot more of it.
Day 3 in Kreischberg - on old haunt where a mate has a chalet (where we were staying). Good fun and family friendly - I recommend this place if you have sproglets. The black running back down to the valley was slushy from the start though!
That's it now. Winter holidays are over for another year 😥
<rings Sky to offer Edukator's superior wealth of knowledge>
I'd refuse. In the unlikely event I applied I'd make sure my CV had qualifications on it that actually exist.
CFH, progression regression, brilliant.
My mum still has her K2 Onesie, same as the one in the vid..
Do you think Henry's qualifications are suspect Edukator?
Henry Schniewind is an internationally renowned snow and avalanche expert who studied avalanche forecasting as part of a Geology degree in the United States and then moved to the French Alps where he works as an off-piste ski guide and director of Henry's Avalanche Talk.He has given over 750 talks and courses in the last 20 years including presenting at international snow science conferences. He has published many papers and articles, often in the British press. Henry created Henry's Avalanche Talk (HAT) in response to the fact that 9 out of 10 victims of avalanches trigger the avalanche themselves and many of these could have been avoided.
Henry delivers a risk management formula that will help you to see how riding off piste can be no more dangerous than the activities that you engage in every day. Henry has been guiding off-piste for close to 20 seasons in Val d'Isère. In addition to his academic work in snow and avalanche forecasting, he holds a Fully Certified French Ski Instructor Degree from the [i]Ecole Nationale de Ski et d'Alpinisme[/i]. Henry Schniewind and HAT are endorsed by [url= http://www.anena.org/ ]ANENA[/url] (The French National Association for Snow and Avalanche Study). Henry Schniewind is also a certified Professional Member of the [url= http://www.americanavalancheassociation.org/ ]American Avalanche Association[/url] and has many ties with other snow and avalanche organisations worldwide.
His AAA membership checks out. Not sure about the Anena endorsement.
my old ski suit
#strangest
progression regression, brilliant.
Some testicular fortitude required for some of those lines on skinny planks!
Been watching the facebook feeds of a few resorts and conditions look epic around Tignes/Val and from Stevo at White Room round the corner in Sainte Foy
CFH 5 mins well spent watching that. A mate had his 50th in Mayerhofen last year and they skied in similar era kit all week 🙂 I have a lovely set of SL Salomon's with the orange bottoms, been kept in the bag now for 20 years. Matching poles of course. They where a buggar for me to ski in powder, the new AM skis are such a massive progression there.
Moniteur de ski = diplome d'etat/brevert d'etat. Nothing to do with a degree which in French is licence.
I've got a geology degree and he must have done a very unusual one to do anything serious about avalanche forecasting at undergraduate level. We did stuff on landslides, stable slope angles for various materials, the influence of pore pressure on shear force required for slip, deep rotational slip. all pretty superficial as are most undergrad studies.
The style of the site really grates. It's marketing, spin and hype in a field where digging pits, watching weather reports, local knowledge... can't be replaced by reading a web site or going to a lecture.
Does going to a Doug Scott lecture make you a better mountaineer? No, but it's excellent entertainment, so I'm fine with it. Avalanche safety as a money spinner I somehow find distasteful.
Lots of marketing and spin, little substance.
^^ there is a lot of merit in this post. Local knowledge and experience. Henry's stuff I always read as its informative and accessible. However the in-resort resources are the "gospel"
Edukator, I would suggest you go to one of his talks or go for a ski with Henry, every day is a school day.
I have always been taught to listen to people with more experience than me.
Henry does market himself well, he also has lots of experience, more than me. His talks are aimed at people who ski off piste a bit and want to learn more and ski more safely.
He is very keen to help people understand more about skiing more safely off the pistes. There is nothing wrong with that.
Some testicular fortitude required for some of those lines on skinny planks!
On steep hard snow skinny straight skis work really well. On steep ground parabolic skis leave you on the tip and heel with the boot bouncing up and down in fresh air. I had a quite worrying time the first time I tried some new skis on a run I've skied on 1966 Rossignol medaille de bronze with screw-on edges.
This years FIS GS skis have 35m radius which is why you sometimes see the racers sliding the heels like 30 years back. It's down to 30m next year but that's still a lot longer than the racers would choose if they had the choice. They're horrible, even harder to ski than the 70s straight skis which were at least bendy enough to be a little bit forgiving. One descent and I put them back in the cupboard.
I've finally binned my own straight skis, I'm getting to old to be jumping every turn.
informative and accessible
Henry does market himself well, he also has lots of experience, more than me. His talks are aimed at people who ski off piste a bit and want to learn more and ski more safely.
He is very keen to help people understand more about skiing more safely off the pistes. There is nothing wrong with
Yeah, but when we have the greatest authority on avalanches and absolutely everything about skiing that's ever been known in the world among us on this thread, who cares, eh?
can't be replaced by reading a web site or going to a lecture.
To be fair I don't think they claim it is.
They explicitly say "There’s no substitute for hands on training and practise, either in the UK or in the Alps." and they do run practical transceiver sessions as well.
And they do offer some "local knowledge" on the site in terms of snow reports etc though that's of limited use to general readership.
Avalanche safety as a money spinner I somehow find distasteful.
I understand your point, but I still paid for Bruce Tremper's books, despite the fact they should have been free to everyone. And I'd still happily pay for a guide. And a beeper. And a shovel. And a probe. And a backpack. And insurance. And...
Apart from my old 2m Kastle slalom skis in the 80s,*I have never really got the ski hype. I have skied all types on a whole range of skis and rarely noticed any difference. Skied deep OP two years ago on both Rossie slalom skis and AM - felt just the same. I am a bit like that with bikes though.
Looking foreword to when 203 planks are back in vogue - have been thru 2 shorter ski cycles over the past few decades 😉
* stupidly fast but tiring in bumps
Yeah, but when we have the greatest authority on avalanches and absolutely everything about skiing that's ever been known in the world among us on this thread, who cares, eh?
If you look back over these various threads you'll find that I made a comment that on poster had got closer to a cornice than was wise given the normal break points and got slated for that.
I commented on another avalanche and got slated for that so I'm pretty frugal on here with my comments. Henry on the other is anything but frugal with his comments finding all sorts of special circumstances for every avalanche and how the victims could have avoided it. Convex here, break above skier there... it's as though he wants it to appear to be some sort of black art when in fact it comes down to not being in the wrong place at the wrong time (which can be very easy or very hard depending on where you want to ski).
Anyhow, I"m back in the position I was in being skeptical about iDave on the diet threads. Any criticism of him resulted in people taking the Micky out of me.
Well, I would suppose it would be a good idea not to be critical of other people then..:-)
Well, I would suppose it would be a good idea not to be critical of other people then..
Are you serious?
Have a look at threads on Brexit, TM, Scottish idependence, Putin, Syria, Blair. or whatever - criticism. Why do STW heroes such as iDave or Henry have to protected form criticism?
I got 10 years of flack on British forums for pointing our Armstrong was lying every time he said he'd never tested positive following his cortisone positive. Forumites have a habit of bigging some people up and refusing to hear criticism.
If you look back over these various threads you'll find that I made a comment that on poster had got closer to a cornice than was wise given the normal break points and got slated for that.
I remember those pictures and thought your comments were right. I don't remember you being slated though.
Holds hand up - I was involved in some of that.I got 10 years of flack on British forums for pointing our Armstrong was lying every time he said he'd never tested positive following his cortisone positive.
You have loads of experience on the snow and I like your photos*, but your bed-side manner is stroppy to say the least and that's why people want to (cyber)fight you all the time. You know that right?
* except the motorbike helmet one.
Why do STW heroes such as iDave or Henry have to protected form criticism?
Eh? I don't think Henry is "protected" at all. In fact I just specifically asked you what issue you had with his CV. I don't know anything about [i]Ecole Nationale de Ski et d'Alpinisme[/i]. You seemed to so I was happy to learn.
I remember those pictures and thought your comments were right. I don't remember you being slated though
Likewise. As I recall it I thought the same thing - except I was willing to accept that photos can be deceptive.
I got 10 years of flack on British forums for pointing our Armstrong was lying every time he said he'd never tested positive following his cortisone positive. Forumites have a habit of bigging some people up and refusing to hear criticism.
You do like a bit of drama, does it really matter? It is just an internet forum, something easily let go. I think you are in your 50s, just be comfortable in the fact you made a good point, but don't expect everyone to agree with you - it ain't going to happen, it is the nature of the human condition.
Sorry guys, I've overreacted with the exception of caaptainflashheart (I should have quoted him) and our petty bickering goes back years. He spent years trashing Bikemagic under a series of pseudos whilst congratulating himself on his work on "the secret forum". He now implies he's a moderator on this forum but won't answer a yes or no question.
So my "bedside manner" isn't always good and when the patient is Flash it's a ten-year-old grudge match in both senses.
Back on topic, it's rained heavily on the snow most of the way up in the Pyrenees so the powder has gone and what's left is very much Spring snow.
He now implies he's a moderator on this forum but won't answer a yes or no question.
I have never, ever had that impression of him.