I was reading dat and tinking, I used to go dancing at the crossroads by Tree Wells - there was a legend about tree farmers who owned the land but couldn't decide on where to site a well. So they just built tree.
So, thanks, that's a new one for me. I have to confess, I would not relish the claustrophobia of getting caught somewhere like that. 😯
Not too far apart then igm!!
Even in simple basic off piste, people try too hard and are too aggressive. OP skiing is much, much easier IMO than on piste as you have do to so little. People make it far too complicated
Skis and body pointing down hill from the outset (fall line), do not start in traverse position
Arms high and wide
Very gentle and slow up and down motion
Err, that's it. Enjoy.....lovely smooth Ss right down the fall line 😉
In Canada the general rule of thumb is that if the trees are spaced far enough apart for good skiing then it can avalanche and when it does you're now being carried through a place with hundreds of baseball bats.
Having said that open areas have more opportunities for the snow to slab up due to wind and so in general alpine areas are more exposed than treeline and below.
Grahams second photo is also a good example of a terrain trap when a small slide has then accumulated in one spot and you end up buried even deeper.
However there really aren't any rules of thumb and avalanche forecasting is a life long job - which is why guides exist.
GrahamS book recommendations are spot on. And if for some reason you find Bruce Temper to be light and engaging (I didn't find it too bad to be honest) than you can always try The Avalanche Handbook
exactly 1 year ago today I was snowboarding in some REALLY tight trees in Japan. got to be confident in your turning but damn, was that fun.
http://www.france24.com/en/20160114-teacher-held-over-french-alps-avalanche-tragedy?dlvrit=65413
Teacher in Custody over avalanche incident
Got caught in plenty of tree wells, though thankfully not too deep and i could pull my way out, still REALLY hard work. One year in Soll we (I) read a path so bad that we had to belay each other out (proper boy scout me with Para cord), took 2 hours to reach the piste.
A point perhaps worth emphasising:
North America - 'tree runs'/glades etc within the ski area boundary will have been assessed by Ski Patrol
Europe - any non-pisted area with trees will most definitely be 'off-piste' therefore you should only be skiing/riding there if you know what you are doing and/or are riding with people who do e.g. appropriately qualified instructor/guide
..took 2 hours to reach the piste.
Impressive!
Four years ago we were just getting into off-piste stuff and we were exploring the "slackcountry" in Schladming. We stupidly went to play in the woods, alongside the piste, which was great fun for a bit.
Then we got flat stuck in a little gully and had to hike out. Despite the fact we could see the piste from the trees is still took us the best part of an hour to dig ourselves out and escape through the baw-deep snow.
Quite an eyeopener.
I caught some of that little adventure on this tedious badly-edited video (skip to 1:40) :
Maccy D's not too keen on those toe turns is he?! 😆
Aye, that was his first time off-piste. He wasn't keen.
He likes freshly-bashed icy cordoruoy pistes.
I think he might be a closet skier. 😕
(I cringe at my erm... "technique" in that video too. I'd like to say I've got a little better since!)
haha @ baw-deep! Looks like fun GrahamS! 🙂
'Course you have. 🙂
Impressive!
board off, carve out a shelf, use a board to step on whilst hte other tethered, use the other board to "dig in" and pull. repeat to fade - the piste was only about 400 meters away. Still being Austria the bar was then not far away so got pissed and did the last 2km down to the resort with torches and randomly spaced lights! I love Austria!
It's always amusing looking back at videos and thinking "crikey - was I really that bad? Thank goodness I've improved in the past few years!"
... and then you see a more recent video and realise that the improvements have been at best, marginal! 🙂
...still ... it's just about the best fun there is trying! 🙂
It's always amusing looking back at videos and thinking "crikey - was I really that bad? Thank goodness I've improved in the past few years!"... and then you see a more recent video and realise that the improvements have been at best, marginal!
QFT.
...still ... it's just about the best fun there is trying!
Amen to that brother.
then you see a more recent video and realise that the improvements have been at best, marginal!
I've cunningly avoided that by simply not videoing myself any more.
In my head I'm Jeremy Jones and that's all that really matters 😉
In my head I'm Jeremy Jones and that's all that really matters
I make Candide Thovex look rubbish.
Erm.
Graham - keep filming yourself. It makes me feel better about my ability level. In my head I'm not even the same species as Jeremy Jones.
Though both my wife and I do have Jones boards - and very nice they are too. Modern cam-rocker is very forgiving compared to my old cambered Volkl.
Facebook video of some Heli blasting at Les Arcs
I've cunningly avoided that by simply not videoing myself any more
Yeah ... but I keep being caught on film by other people! 😳
Couple of Questions if anyone can help.
Looking at booking a hol for the last week in Jan, do I book now (found a couple just within our price range today) or leave it last minute - Friday afternoon - as I've done with summer holidays for years and always got a good holiday at a very cheap price. Not too fussed on where we go but worried we may get a deal but not be able to book our ski/board carriage on the plane due to already being full or something.
Les Carroz, anyone stayed there while boarding? quiet resort ski to door, the grand massif ski area, all sounds lovely, look like mostly blue runs down (one red ending in green) are we going to have problems with stalling on flat spots? Don't fancy having to shuffle/scoot home [i]every day[/i]. Any other comments on it?
Oh and thanks for all the avalanche/tree well info I will be scared to wander off piste now 😕 😉
Donk, I did a season in Les Caroz (many moons ago) you are correct, quiet, reasonable ski area, links between can be an issue in bad weather. Easy transfer from Geneva. Carefull off piste off the top of Flaine, lots of bad rock formations (Holes) A good intermediate will ski the lot in a week, I would expect, depending on your outlook on mile munching.
@igm trees no guaranty of safety, its fairly unlikely an avalanche will start between trees but they can and do start above the tree line and then crush all before them, Ive seen some pretty big trees which have been brushed aside. Also as above there are various other traps and nasties. All being said getting a nice rhythm when skiing in between the trees is magnificent.
Ste Foy is good for a mid day break or a half day, its a compact resort and easy to nip back to the chalet. The excellent off-piste skiers we met there in 2012 used to go back to eat cake, download and recharge their go-pros 😯 and them smash it for a few more hours 🙂
@tmh indeed, less is more. Guide I had just before I bust my knee had really got me to calm down, in fact as I was having such a good time I probably stayed oit too long and got too tired. Hence the mental amd thus physical mistake.
@donk have a look at White Room Chalet too, I'd wager if you do a weeks boarding with him you'll be keen to go back biking in the summer,. End of Jan the world should be your oyster in terms of choice. I haven't skied in Flaine for 20 years, all I remember is it was a bit desolate as a resort.
I feel bad for the teacher in Les 2A, its a lot of responsibility to bear even if it was their decision to ski the run. French TV commenting that it was likely the avalanche was triggered by skiers on a high traverse above the piste. My guess is quite a lot of people would have been ducking the tape and skiing the run
My guess is quite a lot of people would have been ducking the tape and skiing the run
As I recall you can see all that piste from the Bellecombe chairlift (which would almost certainly have been running as it provides uplift for other runs).
It's easy to imagine someone scoping it out from the chair, seeing lots of fresh snow and deciding to go for it. Especially if there were others already on it. 🙁
Pretty tragic stuff. I suspect that failing to take into account the risk of avalanche from above (if that was indeed the case) would be a fairly basic but common mistake from those with little avalanche awareness or training.
I'm not sure I'll ever really be able to enjoy skiing in Europe after what should end up being 3 season in Whistler. The amount of work that patrol do to make all the in bounds but off piste runs safe is pretty incredible considering the amount of terrain here. Needing to stick to the pistes on a pow day because I didn't have the appropriate knowledge/gear would definitely suck.
..took 2 hours to reach the piste.
We had similar over New Year, went off piste route finding and descended a thin strip of snow on the side of a steep hill only to end up on a ledge above a 20m cliff. Had to strap the skis to the rucksack and slog it back 200m uphill - took over an hour of kicking steps to get back out and then find another way down. Was drenched with sweat by the end of it.
Wouldn't worry about late booking of skis etc on a flight. I've booked almost all my ski trips over the last few years pretty last minute and never had an issue.
I have to say, and will probably get shot down for this - I've done probably at least 20 years mostly in Europe of going off-piste a lot having very little of idea what I'm doing, and I've never really come anywhere near setting off or being in an avalanche (that I've been aware of) or getting stuck in a tree well. I did once do something very stupid/scary on the glacier in Chamonix that I definitely shouldn't have done. There have been more than a few occasions where either my or someone else's spidey-sense has tingled and we've backed off.
I now have probe/shovel/transceiver and basic knowledge but am always in the process of learning more.
I guess what I'm saying is appalling as things like this latest incident are, and as important as knowledge is, I think luck still comes into it quite a lot. I've known people get avalanched when out with a local guide for instance. I also once stayed on a chalet where there was another family staying - a kid died falling off the edge of a gentle piste, her dad died trying to rescue her. 🙁
Also, avalanches hit pistes sometimes. Hell, didn't a cable car crash when a fighter plane cut through the cables once? Nowhere on the mountain is 'safe'.
'Tis not about safe/unsafe - it's about high risk/low risk. Low risks sometimes kill - just not as often.
I suppose you could be with a guide and safe but it only takes a few idiots above you...
what's mile munching in this context? Going a long way to get to the good stuff? getting bored with the very local area?I would expect, depending on your outlook on mile munching.
Cheers for info about last minute grum, reassuring to know.
I posted on last year's thread about a close call with a small natural slide while out touring with not one, but two guides.
So, safer with a guide, not safe. You can't eliminate risk unfortunately.
@Graham, yes in the tv video of the incident you can clearly see the chair lift crossing just below the point of the avalanche
Imdid once do something very stupid/scary on the glacier in Chamonix that I definitely shouldn't have done
That is seriously nuts @grum glad you are here to tell the tale. I've done lots of Chamonix off piste inc on the glacier but always with a guide. You can ski a line then the guide points out 20m away there is a cravass. Also runs below the big ice blocks which "only" fall off once a month or so ! Certainly teaches you to pay attention. Resorts like Val d'Isere and Verbier I know well enough to do some of the off piste without a guide but Chamonix glacier is not a place for that !
In the avalanche training I've done its very scarey how little snow you need on you before you can't move and how avalanched snow compresses into what are effectively quite solid bricks
'Tis not about safe/unsafe - it's about high risk/low risk. Low risks sometimes kill - just not as often.
Yup of course but it's not always obvious what is high risk/low risk, even to the experienced.
Just saying: if people who go off-piste regularly without relevant equipment/experience are idiots - then I'm an idiot, and I've been having an ace time being an idiot for the last 20 years or so. I'm currently trying to become less of an idiot though.
Yup I'll agree with you jambalaya - [i]that[/i] was totally reckless and stupid. Ended up in a very scary position at one point with the valley narrowing and lots of rocks tumbling down a cliff on one side and a very 'avalanchey' slope on the other. We had no means of doing a crevasse rescue even if we knew how to. No avalanche gear. Very very stupid. This was a loooong time ago though.
me too. But now you've all educated you [i]may[/i] have saved my life. But you've [i]definitley[/i] curbed my off piste funJust saying: if people who go off-piste regularly without relevant equipment/experience are idiots - then I'm an idiot
😉
Grum very true posts of previous page. Two cable cars from memory, Vallee Blanche in 60s and Italy in late 90s.
First guided trip on Vallee Blance we nearly lost laggard at the back in the Seracs de Geant section as he was so busy admiring the view that he forgot to follow the guide. We shouted at him and he stopped right on the edge of massive crevasse. Everyon incl guide a little shaken
Just saying: if people who go off-piste regularly without relevant equipment/experience are idiots - then I'm an idiot, and I've been having an ace time being an idiot for the last 20 years or so. I'm currently trying to become less of an idiot though.
+1 😳 but there is also an equally dangerous trend that equates kit and guide to being safe! The mountains let you in but they do not guarantee our safety. It will always be a risky sport.
Have you ever tried E face of Helvellyn Grum (you posted some great winter photos a couple of years ago I think)? Always fancied it after reading an article about Ivan Waller skiing it years ago. Have see one attempt live involving short abseil over cornice from trig point. Climb route/gully one from red tarn, quick brew at summit and then ski the E face. Now that would be a day out to remember!!!
No THM but I might give it a go this winter - I own a pair of skis/boots now for the first time in a long while. Need to get some crampons for the ski boots though.
For those of you who aren't mates with me on Facebook - not skiing but snow-themed - I wild-camped at Scales Tarn the other night and then went up Sharp Edge. Glorious.
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10153910911021474&id=603351473&ref=bookmarks
Sorry grum, it wasn't a pointed comment - at least not pointed at you - merely an observation.
Nothing is safe. Sitting at home on the sofa increases your risk of cardiovascular problems, cycling into work increases your risk of being hit by a van (the HGVs round my way are well behaved).
Understand your risks, choose your risks and enjoy taking them. I like mountains, on a bike or board, and I accept there are risks. I just need to make sure I understand them sufficiently.
Have not been for 5 years, some very cheap flights about. Any cheap accommodation(not fuss4ed on luxury) probably heading to Chamonix.
Thanks.
Just saying: if people who go off-piste regularly without relevant equipment/experience are idiots - then I'm an idiot, and I've been having an ace time being an idiot for the last 20 years or so. I'm currently trying to become less of an idiot though.
This highlights part of the trouble. There are lots of risk assessments where you have regular feedback about the quality of your decision making. choosing speed, picking lines, how many gluhweins you can drink and still ski straight...
With avalanche safety, there's no feedback at all unless it goes horribly wrong. No way of telling whether you're still alive due to spectacular luck, or good decisions.
Tis not about safe/unsafe - it's about high risk/low risk. Low risks sometimes kill - just not as often.
From my perspective it's all about managing risk - having the requisite kit/knowledge/guide, does not make it 'safer'. If that were the case then there wouldn't be the number of highly experienced individuals (including guides) who sadly lose their live in avalanches.
Having a guide does improve you chance of survival if you do get buried though as they are more likely to be able to dig you out in under 15 minutes ...
With avalanche safety, there's no feedback at all unless it goes horribly wrong. No way of telling whether you're still alive due to spectacular luck, or good decisions.
Very good point Ned ... and rather sobering ...
You can ski a line then the guide points out 20m away there is a cravass.
Yeah it is surprising how close you can get to a great big hole in the ground if you're not paying close attention...
...erm... apparently... not that I'd do that...
😳
