[Closed] The second coming

just like a god for each thing, it's a load of made up waffle.

As with most things, I would want some actual factual evidence of a second coming, or in fact the first coming.

The stock arguement is "prove to me god doesn't exist".

quote]but as zimbo pointed out "you won't know if you can swim if you dont jump in[

That wasn't me! I warned him of drowning in the perilous waters of blind faith!

I think, worldwide, the level of ignorance and lack of education wouldn't preclude the possibility that a second coming could be believed by many.

Even here in the UK, a supposedly educated and enlightened country, we can't even celebrate a new millennium on the correct year (the new millennium started 1st Jan 2001...not 1st Jan 2000...nothing do with with using alternative calenders as some erroneously believe, just simple numeracy).

Or check these forum pages where people doubt the necessity of leaving some bearing slack in loose ball QR hubs so that the QR will take up the remaining slack. Something that can be tested by any loose ball QR hub owner in seconds, yet still they argue.

You see, we can prove that regardless of concrete evidence against any belief, there are some who steadfastly oppose any information that contradicts what they WANT to believe. That part of human nature hasn't ever changed for a great many.

Yeah Cougar, you're big wuss for not throwing yourself unthinkingly into spurious metaphysical nonsense!

I never asked for unthinkingly, quite the opposite in fact. And thanks for making my point if indeed it's "spurious metaphysical nonsense".... Cougar has nothing to fear, has he?

In which case it's arguable that the existence of the natural world around us etc points to the probability of a 'creator', God as an example ... or you can keep on believing we all came about through a loads of convenient genetic mutations ...

Arguable? Not really. There is not one iota of peer reviewed court admissible evidence to support any creator theory. However, genetic mutations and evolution have been proven countless times.

Praying to God must be more than just making you "feel better", otherwise anyone doing it regularly would soon give up because nothing actually changed through doing it...

I think you may have only read half of my post and skipped the part where I explained that.

Only if scientific investigation suggests it's probable.

Now we're getting somewhere. Does scientific investigation suggest that "the existence of the natural world around us etc points to the probability of a 'creator'," as per your original statement? If it doesn't then by your argument here we can rule it out; if it does then you're in line for a Nobel prize cos no-one else has managed it in two thousand years.

they are asking what forfeit Cougar is going to do for bottling it

I'm not "bottling it," I just don't want to. You're suggesting that the only reason I'm not taking you up on it is fear; let me assure you, fear is fairly low on my list of reasons, I've had scarier bowel movements.

If I 'dared' you to go and sit in a damp cave for two hours every week for six months eating mud, with the only incentive being 'you never know what might happen', would you do it? If not, would you describe yourself as bottling a dare? Don't be silly.

I think I will end my contibution to this thread with a link to one of my favourite websites.

It's the Creationists Museum in Kentucky.

http://creationmuseum.org/

They have great exhibitions explaining how fossils were all planted by God, and displays showing how dinosaurs mixed with the cavemen (they must have, sillies, the world was created in 400BC). If you are lucky, you will catch one of the talks from Dr (have to wonder, of what ?) Morton entitled "Three Ways to Make an Apeman" which explains the three main ways anthropologists faked the evidence for evolution.

It's a real place kiddies, just like Dollywood. Terrifying...

Religion is just a crutch to support weak minded people who need to have a belief that they have a some sort of guardian looking over them. They need to question there misguided belief brainwashed into them by a system struggling to survive in this day and age.

Dude dude.... Sorry, Im pulling your chain little... just trying to be lighthearted ..."I dare you" was, I thought, clearly the voice of a school boy (well done Tucker, to the top of the class you go) and "bottling it" was in the same vein.

There are quite a few aesthesis (some of them rather nasty)on here as well as some uncompromising religious people.... I hope I've come across, or would like to, much like MrBarnsleymatch... Some one of faith whose life is better for it and is not worried about saying that.

Just to say Cougar I have enjoyed your posts on this thread.

I would love to partake but the requirement to "make a living" rules that out.

That is all.

I'm fascinated by why Cougar seeks to start a discussion on religion when it is very clear he has made up his mind and will not be convinced otherwise.

But as has been pointed out, religion does seem to obsess the Cougar.

Why does it obsess you Cougar? Because you are among the enlightened and you are angry why people can subscribe to incorrect beliefs? But what business is that of yours to begin with?

Are you our true liberator?

Is this the first coming of the Cougar?

Religion is just a crutch to support weak minded people who need to have a belief that they have a some sort of guardian looking over them. They need to question there misguided belief brainwashed into them by a system struggling to survive in this day and age

Why don't you just shorten that to: 'anyone who doesn't believe what I believe is an idiot' 🙄

But what business is that of yours to begin with?

I think it is the concern of all tax payers in the UK, dont you. It should also be the concern of every other paid up member of the human race to strive to debunk such harmful myths and vested interests.
The myths that to this day restrict social and medical advances across the globe as well as the restriction of scientific reasoning and our childrens education.

I did have some time after all!

Oh, great! Another day, another tedious tail-chasing STW will eat itself thread on religion that goes around and around and around like all the others before it.

"Religion is just a crutch to support weak minded people who need to have a belief that they have a some sort of guardian looking over them. They need to question there misguided belief brainwashed into them by a system struggling to survive in this day and age. "

Yep thats it... well done, you win.

Why don't you just shorten that to: 'anyone who doesn't believe what I believe is an idiot'

I'll shorten it to 'anyone who believes in religion is an idiot'. 8)

Anyway i know god is real cause im a Chelsea supporter, and i did a lot of praying last night.

I'm fascinated by why Cougar seeks to start a discussion on religion

Cougar didn't, Cougar asked a reasonable question about whether we'd believe it if a "second coming" happened. That's a philosphical/societal question that can be asked without adherence to any belief system.

Hey CFH

I completely agree with you and we've even got the cherry on the cake

Your post stating tail chasing blah blah.... well done.

But what business is that of yours to begin with?
I think it is the concern of all tax payers in the UK, dont you.

I would argue conversely that without Christianity, and the civic culture it supported in this country for many hundreds of years, there would not have been a UK in the first place, let alone economic prosperity, religious and political liberty, and the opportunity (not always realised) to discuss whether God exists in the first place.

Browsing this thread only brings home to me that the greatest threat to liberty and tolerance as we understand it (and it is understood in Christian terms) is the closed minded, fashionable and currently unverifiable Atheism espoused by so many of the contributors who have happened to read a book by Christopher Hitchens or Richard Dawkins, and found that a lack of divine justice fits very well with their middle-aged angst.

Dobbo... watch out fella... MrBmatch will be along shortly to have a word in your shell like.

Cougar asked a reasonable question about whether we'd believe it if a "second coming" happened. That's a philosphical/societal question that can be asked without adherence to any belief system.

I think it is primarily a religious question, as it presupposes the reality of a Second Coming, which Cougar has strenuously argued in other threads is an Impossiblity.

It is a meaningless question unless the inquirer is willing to accept the possibility of a Second Coming. Otherwise it is the work of an Agitator with some vapours to let off.

Anyway i know [s]God[/s] Satan is real cause im a Chelsea supporter, and I [s]Did a lot of praying[/s] sacrificed a virgin last night

Oh, great! Another day, another tedious tail-chasing STW will eat itself thread on religion that goes around and around and around like all the others before it.

ooh - looks like badnwez is the one with the big chip on his shoulder! Anti-atheist anger always makes me laugh, but "unverifiable atheism", that's comedy gold.

I'll shorten it to 'anyone who believes in religion is an idiot'.

Ok then.

Isaac Newton - Idiot. John Milton - Idiot. Martin Luther King - Idiot. Max Plank - Idiot.

but "unverifiable atheism", that's comedy gold.

Ok then, verify Atheism. Particularly, as a Materialist, can you say how something came from nothing?

Without referring string theory, other dimensions, or the saying "we will work it out eventually". There is no evidence for the first two and the third is a statement of hope - which puts you in exactly the same position as the believer.

As has been pointed out before by the more sensible contributors, neither faith nor complete disbelief can be proven by the evidence.

I would argue conversely that without Christianity, and the civic culture it supported in this country for many hundreds of years, there would not have been a UK in the first place, let alone economic prosperity, religious and political liberty, and the opportunity (not always realised) to discuss whether God exists in the first place

I think you will find that "civic culture" is a result of large number of factors and evidence has shown that religion has stympied culture and social development in the UK as well as other countries. I would argue that we have become more enlightened in spite of religion not as a result of it. The fact that "religion" was prevalent during times of social enlightement doesnt mean enlightenment came about because of it, more in spite of it. The work of atheists needs to continue.

And to claim that religion has somehow given us the opportunity to debate its existence is quite funny given its attempts to silence its critics at every stage through history.

who have happened to read a book

You couldnt make it up!

Ok then.

Isaac Newton - Idiot. John Milton - Idiot. Martin Luther King - Idiot. Max Plank - Idiot.

But the fact that some people believe it doesnt make it any more true in the same way that Richard Dawkins finding god on his death bed reinforces yours or anybody elses argument for it.

You do understand that dont you?

neither faith nor complete disbelief can be proven by the evidence

Do you want me to similarly disprove the existence of the tooth fairy?

And to claim that religion has somehow given us the opportunity to debate its existence is quite funny given its attempts to silence its critics at every stage through history.

There is much in this. I think if you look at all human history, power politics means people try to silence others. And Christianity has for the most part been no different.

But since its founder rejected compulsion and persecution, I would say that this is corrupt Christianity (we live in a fallen world, after all).

There have been countless liberation movements undertook by Christians who actually read the Gospels and understood them. Martin Luther King against racism, Wilberforce against African slavery, John Milton against political Absolutism.

I'll shorten it to 'anyone who [b]believes [/b]in religion is an idiot'.

As in present day not when times and technologies were radically different. Anyway it was a [i]slightly [/i]tongue in cheek comment as a reply to an implied post.

Do you want me to similarly disprove the existence of the tooth fairy?

Zimbo, I wish you would consider your statements before jumping into the fray.

The tooth fairy, I would happily agree, does not exist.

God, on the other hand, is a different matter. There remains the question of how something came from nothing and countless civilisations have found the concept of a divine creator to be the most reasonable explanation.

the Creationists Museum in Kentucky.

Oh, that's beautiful.

Just to say Cougar I have enjoyed your posts on this thread.

Aw bless. Thanks.

I'm fascinated by why Cougar seeks to start a discussion on religion when it is very clear he has made up his mind and will not be convinced otherwise.

I'm not looking to be convinced, nor to convince others. I just find it interesting to discuss topics with people of other viewpoints. Otherwise it'd be a short, dull conversation. "I think this, like this, and want this." - "Hey, so do I!" - "Hm. Nice weather we're having."

Did you have a stab at answering the OP? A few people have, but the posts tended to get lost in the background noise.

Oh, great! Another day, another tedious tail-chasing STW will eat itself thread on religion that goes around and around and around like all the others before it.

Anyone forcing you to read it?

It is a meaningless question unless the inquirer is willing to accept the possibility of a Second Coming.

You seem to have meaningless and hypothetical confused; nonetheless, asking the question requires no acceptance at all, answering it might do though.

can you say how something came from nothing?

Do you actually read any of the answers that people give you when you ask questions? I've told you about six times now, no-one thinks that something came from nothing (other than you, seemingly), this is a straw man.

The "Gospels" and institutional/organised religion are the problem. They are all about bigotry and subjugation. Personal faith, I have no problem with, irrational though it may seem to me.

Zimbo, I wish you would consider your statements before jumping into the fray

More of that comedy gold. You're wasted on here. How did you know I've only just started thinking about religion after I finished today's lunch?

There have been countless liberation movements undertook by Christians who actually read the Gospels and understood them. Martin Luther King against racism, Wilberforce against African slavery,

Yet the first book actively encouraged it and the second did not dismiss it.

I would say that this is corrupt Christianity (we live in a fallen world, after all).

So was King mistaken when he raged against what your text encouraged?

Anyway it was a slightly tongue in cheek comment as a reply to an implied post.

I'd like clarification on what constitutes an implied post. I prefer the explicit post, as its hard to detect someone winking over the internet.

As in present day not when times and technologies were radically different

I agree completely, we live in a very different world where technology and science have revolutionised our understandings. But still, science presupposed that nature's Laws are rational, consistent and discover-able (Newton in particular saw his science as a part of his religious inquiry). I see no difference in the conception of scientific inquiry since science has developed over the last three hundred years, insofar as it still believes in intelligible laws. But the question remains, what created such complex but consistent and beautiful laws in the first place?

Did you have a stab at answering the OP? A few people have, but the posts tended to get lost in the background noise

Sorry Cougar...my original Che Guevara comment attempted to respond to your OP - sorry if I've contributed to the sidetracking. I'll shut up now!

Surfer makes a couple of excellent points about Scripture. It can indeed be read to support slavery and racism. And it has been for many many centuries (the Old Testament in particular).

But the Gospels give a simple and clear message: in your life, do not persecute, do not compel, do not be prejudiced. I would recommend the book of James in particular.

As an anti-formalist religion, Christianity was a reaction against literal interpretation. The bible is a hugely complicated work, hugely contradictory, a mixture of different literary modes and genres. It is not an instruction manual. It is a starting point.

The tooth fairy, I would happily agree, does not exist.

You sound awfully sure. Can you prove that it doesn't?

countless civilisations have found the concept of a divine creator to be the most [s]reasonable[/s] [b]convenient[/b] explanation.

FTFY.

I'd like clarification on what constitutes an implied post.

But the question remains, what created such complex but consistent and beautiful laws in the first place?

It can indeed be read to support slavery

When you say "can be read"

By the miracle of "copy and past" I could give you "chapter and verse" quoting Leviticus, Genesis and Deutoronomy. These are the clear and unambigous lessons the old testament gives us.

The nice bits you mentioned you made up yourself! I would say from the fact that you live in an enlightened society, in spite of religion.

I'm not looking to be convinced, nor to convince others. I just find it interesting to discuss topics with people of other viewpoints. Otherwise it'd be a short, dull conversation. "I think this, like this, and want this." - "Hey, so do I!" - "Hm. Nice weather we're having."

That's not being honest Cougar. You've said many times that you think people who believe in God are simply wrong. Why then would you want to discuss something (which you don't think is true) with people who you know are wrong?

Returning to your original question, it is paradoxical. What would people do if an event happened which by nature can never happen? It makes no logical sense. In that respect it is clearly something other than an attempt to start an open minded discussion. It is Agitation, pure and simple.

I will sign off now (insults welcome - running away etc) but I do have a life independent of Agitation to get back to.

I agree what created your god? And where did all the matter that he created come from?

Last one promise.

Excellent question. The concept of the Christian God is that He is self creating and Eternal (thereby independent of the material Universe).