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Apparently our beloved chancellor was a bit surprised that the rich aren't paying any tax
[url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/reality-check-with-polly-curtis/2012/apr/10/george-osborne-richest-avoid-tax?newsfeed=true ]Oh, what a surprise[/url]
I was so shocked on reading this I nearly dropped my pastie
I was shocked that he was shocked.
It doesn't matter how shocked he is; what matters is how he deals with this 'new' information. That's what to judge him on..
Amazon - 2.5billion sales in the UK and.......how much Corporation tax?
Perhaps he was round RedKen's at the weekend for a dinner party.
That's what to judge him on..
i can't help but judge him on his naivety.
I'm shocked that no-one seems particularly shocked that he was shocked (apart from muppetwrangler)
But then, I assume that he assumes that all his rich pals pay their accountants to worry about their tax affairs, like he does, so he, like they, have no idea what rate of tax they pay.
That's a point, would he be shocked if he found out how much tax [b]he[/b] paid?
Why be surprised - we know he is thick
However he is also a duplicitous idiot - he claims more people will pay tax after the reduction in top tax rate.
He is also a multimillionaire who claims to not be a higher rate taxpayer as he hides his money in a trust fund to avoid tases.
I was shocked that everyone's shocked at Chancellor being shocked.
How do you think Henry VIII would deal with tax evaders?
In a later revelation Mr Osbourne was suprised to discover that the Pope is catholic and bears poo in the woods.
Our tax laws and regulations are far too complicated with too many loop holes for clever tax lawyers and accountants to exploit. Come on George, sort it out!
This from a man who inherited a £3M investment trust at aged 21 to avoid inheritance tax. I'm shock that anyone would be surprised that he's shocked.
IM SHOCKED & SO'S MY WIFE!
Oh hang on..this isnt the Monty Python appreciation society is it?
Sorree, wrong room..
Google paid just £8m of corporation tax in Britain – despite generating more than £6bn in revenues in this country in the six years to 2010.
Much as I'd like to jump on the bandwaggon of being appaled by all this.....
I'm not.
Once I'm chartered I'll set myself up as a ltd company and pay just as little tax as them.
Hora - stop mixing up revenues with profits... companies pay tax on net profits (with various adjustments for additional taxable/non-taxable items and reliefs). For fast growing companies like you mention, profits will be a small proportion of revenues (most of the value in those companies is in the potential for future earnings and they're also likely to have made losses in earlier years). The fact that they're US companies and have global operations will complicate it further (making it impossible to make simplistic statements about what they should be paying in the UK or globally).
Just saying for future reference, like (wouldn't want you sounding mis-informed 😉
Amazon and Google have been long established in the UK now.
Telegraph got it spot on 😆
Hora - they're pretty well established for tech companies, but it's more complicated than that
Amazon had total revenues have $48bn last year but it's net profit before tax was less than $1bn. They operate in Europe through a Luxembourg company so finding out the profit made through UK operations will be impossible...
Anyway - it's discussed here: http://www.amazon.co.uk/forum/deals/ref=cm_cd_ecf_tft_tp?_encoding=UTF8&cdForum=Fx1DEIHNWYF5SA9&cdThread=Tx14R7K0GBKZ39D
It's a rubbish example, but I think the point is that if you've got enough money and can operate globally, there's likely to be relatively easy ways to reduce your tax bill (some of which are impossible to close down, whereas the "aggressive" avoidance is being addressed).
They operate in Europe through a Luxembourg company
Boots' HQ is, on paper at least, a PO Box in a tax haven. Vodaphone sorted out their tax return by taking a civil servant to dinner a few times.
Rod its not as simple as that either. You can conceal profit through operating costs etc etc in many layers/veils.
TandemJeremy - Member
Why be surprised - we know he is thick
He's no more thick than you're a bigoted, ignorant old fool 😉
However he is also a duplicitous idiot - he claims more people will pay tax after the reduction in top tax rate.
This however is true 🙂
According to the Telegraph, Osborne's plan is to limit the maximum tax relief in any one year to 25% of your income or £50k. The schemes being given as examples all revolved around claiming tax relief, e.g for charitable donations.
I am shocked he said it FFS he is the chancellor of the exchequer does he even know what currency we use?
I would accept him not knowing how much bog roll is or how to stop a bus to get on it but this WHY and how could he not know?
However he does seem to be saying the right things re targeting tax avoidance will he .....i very much doubt it but I am crossing my fingers that the right wing, tax avoiding, multi millionairre, heir apparent to the Osborne Baronetcy of Ballentaylor and Ballylemon, privileged toff will stick it to the rich. Dont let us down Gideon the common people have complete faith in you
Maybe its because he's just realised how he could have got away with paying less tax himself?
And, the rules have been created by the (various) Governments - as taxpayers we have to follow these rules. Is it our fault that they've created a most complex system that even they don't know how it works?
I see that one of the tax dodges he is going to close down is giving your money to charity to avoid paying tax. Now some charities I am sure will be established to benefit the wealthy but if I decide to give all my money to Oxfam I will then be taxed on my income and have to pay tax which means giving less money to the charity so I can pay my tax. I am not sure it is as simple as people are making out.
However he does seem to be saying the right things re targeting tax avoidance
So was Ken Livingstone. 😉
its such a contrived, ridiculous press release im wondering why news sites bothered to tun it, even the telegrapgh takes the pith out of him for it
He also flipped his house under parliament rules to avoid CGT
He is a mendacious liar
TandemJeremy - Member
He also flipped his house under parliament rules to avoid CGTHe is a [s]mendacious liar[/s] politician
FTFY
Hora - most operating costs are actual costs incurred (usually deductible if wholly and exclusively for the purposes of the trade) so you seem to think they're also partaking in fraud?
My original point is that saying a company made £x bn revenue and only paid £x m corporation tax is too simplistic and sounds like tabloid press headlines...
It's pretty clear that they (like many other companies) are operating through headquarters in a low corporation tax jurisdiction and organise their affairs to minimise the overall tax payable (which is probably not that much anyway in the case of Amazon). It's pretty hard for the UK to close up international loopholes though and if they're creating lots of jobs in the UK (and paying UK payroll taxes) I doubt any government would be worrying too much about that.
Aggressive tax avoidance is another thing altogether and the general anti avoidance rule [i]should[/i] help reduce it... (IME, rich individuals are the most likely to chance their arm at avoiding tax)
There are ways to do these legally. Moral though? The government is trying to sell the country as a tax haven/avoidance area to the Chinese. Strange when they own so much of our debt.
Why has no one caught up with Boots yet? They have a PO Box in Switzerland but no staff manning a physical office as per the rules. When is the case against Vodafone going through? Since Private Eye uncovered an extra £2 billion in inter-company loans that seem to plainly breach the rules? And Ken, poor Ken, just ballsed his election chances up didn't he!
Shutting down Voda's was a fun pastime admittedly 🙂
Going against the stream here but, is the rich avoiding/evading tax a new thing? How long has Gideon been chancellor? How long was Mr Brown chancellor?
Is it not fair to say that most of this went on under Browns watch and that he should bare far more of the blame than anyone else? Especially when we consider that Labour did precisely FA to rectify it in the 10 years they could have.
wrecker - MemberGoing against the stream here but, is the rich avoiding/evading tax a new thing?
Course not. That's why Osborne isn't surprised by it.
Thing is... This story itself isn't about tax evasion, or avoidance, or about Osborne's capability as chancellor, or anything like that- it's about him lying to the public for no reason at all other than that he liked the way it sounded. And also that he gives the public so little credit that he thinks he can come out with such a blatant lie and nobody will notice.
The rich used to do a lot more tax avoidance 10 years ago (no doubt some were evading as well but jail is a bit of deterrent!) The introduction of the 50% tax rate also gave more incentive to avoid tax.
Non-rich people also avoid tax but the cost-benefit is lower so less incentive to do it.
It's not specific to this government - if anything things are getting tighter. But back to the original post, is anyone really surprised at a politcian feigning shock or lying? 🙂
Blimey, I hope no one's told him where bears do a No. 2
The shock might kill him.
We'd better not tell George that Father Christmas doesn't exist or he'll be devastated.
TandemJeremy - MemberWhy be surprised - we know he is thick
Who's "we" ? I wasn't aware.
He seems like quite a clever **** to me.
Really? Many different sorts of clever but anyone who thinks we will be taken in by his "surprise" is pretty thick in my book. Especially as he has been the beneficiary of tax avoidance on multiple occasions.
He may have more booklearning than you Ernie but you have more nous 🙂
Yes mate. It came as a surprise to me that he's "thick".
He's Chancellor of the Exchequer. You're not.
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What is surprising me is the rich people's attitude to charity. In a nutshell they seem to be saying "we ain't giving to charity unless we get tax breaks"
Unbeleivable. Personally I wish Gideon luck in getting these people to pay their tax, and I hope it's comparable with the % the rest of us do.
It may come as a shock, but politicians lie. It's in the job description.
There some signs to look out for. Next time one pops up on the TV, watch carefully, if his mouth moves.........
[i]Why has no one caught up with Boots yet? They have a PO Box in Switzerland but no staff manning a physical office as per the rules.[/i]
Maybe its changed since I was there, but there was a 'person/lawyer' as per the rules - they also covered a lot of other companies too.
At the end of the day, any company that doesn't minimise its taxes (and other costs) is really failing its shareholders.