[Closed] The NHS isnt working

Ernie - are you [b]still[/b] unable to progress the discussion beyond childish ad hominem dismissal ?

How about some ideas about how health care could be improved in the UK instead of point scoring?

Go and 'king read what I've written above, and tell me one thing you disagree with!

I challenge you to tell me what I've said on this page thats wrong!

Zulu-Eleven - Member
Ernie - are you still unable to progress the discussion beyond childish ad hominem dismissal?

That's the trouble with political dogmatists - strong on ideology, weak on ideas 🙄

Sorry ernie, but your post shows the problem in a nutshell.

It's easy to fall back on rhetoric and stereotype, its easy to look through your political glasses and interpret everything in shades of left and right, and that is the reason the NHS is kicked around by politicians.

No one comes to us and asks, they all come and tell us.

Go and 'king read what I've written above, and tell me one thing you disagree with!

I'm not interested in what you're saying.......I'm interested in what you're not saying.

You have never denounced your political guru for claiming that the NHS is a "failed experiment" which makes people "iller" and that the American healthcare model is by far superior.

Which of course is hardly surprising ..... right-wing neo-conservatives fully support Dan Hannan's views on the NHS. You just don't like to talk about it.

If you change your right-wing neo-conservative views I might well stop challenging you Zulu-Eleven, but I won't just because you choose to be highly selective in what you are honest about.

And you might well like to dismiss my opposition to your cranky right-wing views as "childish", well you would wouldn't ? but I'm afraid that won't make an iota of difference.

You could just choose to ignore me, as I generally choose to ignore your baiting - I fully recognise the futility of trying to have a grown-up sensible discussion with you.

🙂

its easy to look through your political glasses and interpret everything in shades of left and right, and that is the reason the NHS is kicked around by politicians.

Healthcare provisions is [i]highly[/i] political .... here in the UK .... in the US......anywhere.

Next you'll be suggesting that economics shouldn't be a political issue.

Durr... Is it really?

The point is that by making every argument into a political one, we never get anywhere, and nothing ever changes and you miss the opportunity to see common ground or good ideas because you are blinded by ideology.

We had the postwar consensus.......the Tories tore it up over 30 years.

I would be more than willing to work with Tories like Macmillan who amongst other things, were committed to universal healthcare provisions. Where are they ?

Well, if you want a grown up discussion - I think you'll find that Hannan does not say the american model is better, he says that the UK NHS is not the model that the americans should follow, and that the Singapore model is better, this is also clearly laid out in "The Plan" as you'd know if you'd read it before dismissing it.

I think you'll find above in my discussion with Crikey a fairly reasonable discussion on just how the NHS can make people "iller" - as he said "we have created or fostered a situation where people don't have to take responsibility" - and all without hysterics or name calling either.

On top of this, you've still not actually said which of my points above you disagree with.

If you wanted my personal views on improving healthcare for the same amount of money - I'd first suggest that instead of massively increasing GP's wages with the contract settlements of the Labour years, this money should have instead been pumped into employing more GP's and support staff. but we are where we are, I'd tell GP's that there would be a five year pay freeze for those who benefited under the reforms, and all increases would go into more of them. I'd also consider rewarding GP's for reducing the amount of antibiotics prescribed.

I'd then get rid of gastric band operations and fertility treatment on the NHS. A proper review of the efficacy of widespread statin prescription (which I think may well lead to more targeted use in at risk groups rather than across the board) bill people for drunken injuries and I'd start hitting people with fixed penalty notices for misuse of ambulance services.

problems? lets talk about solutions.

We had the postwar consensus.......the Tories tore it up over 30 years.
I would be more than willing to work with Tories like Macmillan who amongst other things, were committed to universal healthcare provisions. Where are they ?

It's called the Labour Party. Socialism is dead.

So funding - as I said to TJ - has increased, and waiting lists and customer satisfaction have improved etc etc etc. And the way pensions have been handled is a huge demotivator.

But that is to miss the core issue here which is why some hospitals/wards seem bad, and others with similar funding seem good. Anyone listening to some of the patients stories on the radio today would hear things that mirror things patients have told me. Often the care is excellent. But sometimes patients do seem to be getting in the way of ward staff members chatting and having tea. And often there are unacceptable bureaucratic snafus with appointments and investigations...

There do seem to be teams and units which are good at learning, and some where the patients seem to be perveiced as a nuisance.

Socialism is dead.

And then you woke up.

why some hospitals/wards seem bad, and others with similar funding seem good

A decent standard of care requires proper leadership.

Blindingly obvious, I know - but it can make all the difference between a ward running like clockwork and sliding into chaos. I would have followed my old Senior Sister to Hell and back - we liked, respected and (sometimes) feared her. It's nothing to do with [i]Daily Mail[/i] matron-fetish BS, just recognition of those individuals who can rally staff when the chips are seriously down. Poor care follows on from poor morale, just as surely as night follows day.

See also: long-in-the-tooth but seen-it-all band 5 RNs.

On BBC's Question Time last night one of the panel stated that [b]it was almost impossible to have an informed debate[/b] about the NHS - entrenched views, dogma, mis-information on all sides. I think this thread illustrates his point exactly.

We are [b]forced to accep[/b]t the mantra that the NHS is the best health service in the world. To question any part of this becomes heresy which is an absurd barrier to progress. As is the fact that any debate struggles to move beyond the narrow argument for and against the US vs NHS models. This is far too simplistic.

Perhaps the best test is to ask oneself, if money was not object what healthcare choice would you make?

IMHO, there is no doubt that in the case of serious illness and emergency I would choose the NHS. In these areas the NHS can justifiably lay claim to being the best in the world.

However, in the case of routine/ non-time sensitive treatment, I would choose the private sector every time. Why because the quality of the experience would be much better in too many ways to list here.

I genuinely feel sorry for anyone trying to make sense of a profession in the NHS. Talented people with honourable motivations to help others. For that, we underpay them, patronise them and subject them to constant and harmful change. No wonder many are so demotivated.

V8ninety ....

Im not sure what you do but you talk drivel about "social" admissions. Have you ever spent any time in primary care?

I remember working for a really good care of the elderly consultant as an sho who told me there is no such thing as a social admission. You know what she was and still is right.

I'd tell GP's that there would be a five year pay freeze for those who benefited under the reforms,

Spot on. Looking at 3% down last year, a further 5% this year and 5% next year. And thats before adjustment for inflation. Plus our pensions (which are not final salary) screwed with. Increased workload and being blamed for everything. I know a lot of GPs retiring a year or two earlier than they had planned. There is a workforce crisis coming soon. And you Z11 know eff all.

teamhurtmore - Member

We are forced to accept the mantra that the NHS is the best health service in the world. To question any part of this becomes heresy

What nonsense...

We are forced to accept the mantra that the NHS is the best health service in the world. To question any part of this becomes heresy which is an absurd barrier to progress.

Have you got some evidence to back up this claim ? Who's been saying that the British NHS is the best in the world ? Who's been denying that it ever experiences failures ?

Sounds like empty rhetoric to me - the very [i]"entrenched views, dogma, mis-information"[/i] which you complain about.

Far from being forced to accept the mantra that the NHS is perfect, we are constantly reminded of its limitations - long waiting list, limited resources, staff shortages, care failures, dilapidated buildings, etc. And who would argue with that ?

What isn't in doubt is that a healthcare system in which people receive according to their need, and contribute according to their ability, is vastly superior to any other alternative.

.

Zulu-Eleven - Member

I think you'll find that Hannan does not say the american model is better, he says that the UK NHS is not the model that the americans should follow

Why do you think that ? I've seen the video and found that Dan Hannan very clearly says that the American model is better, and warns them not to make the "mistake" we made. Can't you be honest just for once ffs ?

And Dan Hannan is no 'inconsequential' Tory. He is a personal friend of David Cameron, a Daily Telegraph leader writer, a speechwriter to a former Shadow Foreign Secretary, and a speechwriter to William Hague when he was Tory Party leader. He represents very much today's mainstream Tory, and he has some clout.

If Tories like Hannan believe that the NHS is a mistake in principle, then it goes without question that they would want to rectify the mistake and dismantle it - why wouldn't they want to put right a mistake ?

It's clear that the NHS is not safe in the hands of today's Tories. It would be perilous to ignore that threat. Only it's not being ignored - there is widespread public and professional opposition to their plans.

The neo-conservatives will fight back by making wild nonsensical claims that "the NHS isn't working", like mcboo did when he started this thread.

i doubt that many actually see the NHS as perfect, the problem is that the proposed solution seems to owe much to the US model and the belief that rightly or wrongly the only thing that will matter is what you can afford to pay. What is needed is to stop trying to change the NHS every five years, introducing new plans and new ideas, give things time to settle.

And something that seems not to be understood by some is that some things are a service and not a competition between providers. My SO had to go into hospital a week ago, emergency situation, there is no choice of which hospital you go to. There is no market. To suggest otherwise is pointless. As for non emergency treatment, how can it work? people want care near to where they live, where there is support available, if i need cancer treatment i would use the local hospital, why would i look at a hospital in London? again no market? i want a blood test, i go where is convient, which means where i live or work. See the pattern here?

And i suspect that most in the UK are not actually interested in the rantings of neo-con free marketers. They want there to be regulation, to be a health service that is there when they need it.

Oh and the british complain about everything. So there will always be something to moan about.

comparisons with singapore and the uk are silly

for a start singapore is a lot younger average age than the uk (and most western countries)-its old age that drains resources in healthcare
youre also looking at a country with a far healthier lifestyle, significantly lower car ownership, alcohol use, no maccyDs on every corner etc etc

preventative healthcare is a good idea
sadly this government couldnt care less about it

all they are interested in is lining the pockets of their private healthcare/insurance backers, like those that funded hannahan to trot around the USA peddling lies about the nhs

and so far this government has shown no interest in preventative healthcare;
goves brainwave of slashing sports funding in schools
scrapping the food label traffic lights system under pressure from industry (something consumers and doctors were very keen on)
reducing alcohol and fast food consumption by letting the relevant industries influence policy
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/leading-articles/leading-article-we-should-not-let-the-drinks-industry-set-policy-on-alcohol-2329611.html

only an idiot would think that this governments reforms are about making the NHS better, they are about making money for their chums

Here is a link to the [url= http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/lbill/2010-2012/0092/lbill_2010-20120092_en_1.htm ]health Bill[/url] now I gave it a quick read but I struggle to find all this privatisation stuff - could someone point me to the clauses?

my wife works with the NHS. I work in private healthcare. Growing up.my mother had a severe chronic condition. through all of this I have seen the very best, and the very worst of the NHS.

The NHS is a fantasti thing and when it works, its the best healthcare system in the world.

When it goes wrong its horrendous. a couple of years ago my mother had a scan which showed lesions on her brain. a 5 minute consultation with the consultant and he told her she had MS. this turned her world upside down and they did not consider any more tests necessary.

only at my insistence did she go private and a battery of tests confirmed she did not have MS.

this is one of many failings ive encountered with the NHS. Diagnosis always seems to be a major problem.

however, if youre seriously ill and they know whats wrong, the NHS is second to none

Here is a link to the health Bill now I gave it a quick read but I struggle to find all this privatisation stuff - could someone point me to the clauses?

The problem is not so much as what this bill is calling for, but where this bill will take us and what the next bill will do.

mefty - Member

Here is a link to the health Bill now I gave it a quick read but I struggle to find all this privatisation stuff - could someone point me to the clauses?

I am astonished by the level of pretence and dishonesty shown by some. Whilst for the obvious reason that the NHS, and the principles behind it, enjoys pretty much incomparable support amongst the British people, they can't openly declare their intention to transform it into privatised profit making concern, do they not realise that anyone who bothers to give the issue any consideration can see straight through them ? .........and hence the massive public and professional opposition to their plans.

[i]Of course[/i] the neo-cons aren't going to openly declare their intentions to carry out widespread privatisation of the health service - why would they when it would have no public support ? But the multibillion pound industry has far too much potential for huge profits for them to resist it, and there isn't a whole lot left in Britain to privatise.

So yes, words such as "privatisation" won't enter their vocabulary when they are discussing the NHS, preferring instead to suggest that it's all just about improving patient care, such as Z-11's contributions.

Because everyone knows that the right-wing of the Tory Party, people like Dan Hannan, have always had a deep commitment to the NHS ! And which Labour has never had ! In fact so committed as these these bleeding heart right-wingers to non-profit motivated free healthcare for all, that they are prepared to take the political fallout resulting from the massive opposition from all the professional healthcare organisations ! ..... God bless them.

The official policy of the British Medical Association - which has given the Bill more than just a "quick read" mefty, is that the Bill should be withdrawn. And that the government is misleading the public by repeatedly stating that there will be no privatisation of the NHS.

[b]The Council of the BMA has issued a statement on the Bill which amongst other things states :[/b]

[i]That this meeting of Council:

1. recognises the medical profession's lack of support for the Health and Social Care Bill;

2. recognises the lack of support from the majority of GPs for involvement in GP or clinical commissioning as proposed in the Health and Social Care Bill;

3. rejects the idea that the Government's proposed changes to the Bill will significantly reduce the risk of [u]further marketisation and privatisation of the NHS[/u];

4. [b]agrees that [u]the Government is misleading the public by repeatedly stating that there will be 'no privatisation of the NHS'[/u][/b];

5. calls for the BMA to start a public campaign to call for the withdrawal of the Health and Social Care Bill.[/i]

[url= http://www.bma.org.uk/healthcare_policy/nhs_white_paper/latestnhsreformstatement.jsp ]BMA Statement on Health and Social Care Bill[/url]

It should be noted that 60 years ago the BMA, because of its understandable links with the Conservative Party, was strongly opposed to the creation of the NHS, but it went ahead anyway because of overwhelming public support. Today the BMA is passionately in support of the NHS and the reason is very clear : because despite the lies spouted by Dan Hannan to his American audience the NHS has not been a '60 year mistake', it has been a stunning success - something which the BMA fully recognises.

I await being told that the BMA is just playing the tired old left v right game and using healthcare as a political football by exposing the government's hidden privatisation agenda.

It should be noted that 60 years ago the BMA, because of its understandable links with the Conservative Party, was strongly opposed to the creation of the NHS, but it went ahead anyway because of overwhelming public support.

Google "stuffed their mouths with gold" you will find the real reason the doctors went along with Atlee.

As an aside what is this obsession with Daniel Hannan? And why do you keep banging on about Neo-Conservatives? Do you even know what it means?

Is that the best you can come up with mcboo ?

I give a long spiel showing how the medical professions are opposed to the government's Health and Social Care Bill, and how they have stated that the government is misleading the public by repeatedly stating that there will be 'no privatisation of the NHS', and the best you can come up with is to ask me if I know what neo-con means ?

How pathetic.

Did you google?

Ernie - Could you point to the clauses in the bill rather than the viewpoint of vested interests?

The Bill will (essentially) move the NHS towards commissioning services from 'any qualified provider' - think all manner of 'partnered' consortia with a touchy, feely NHS kitemark. As Stoatsbrother will probably point out, it will certainly offer opportunities for canny GPs to improve services & - hopefully - keep patients out of hospital/acute care (the Holy Grail of provision, tbh). But (despite all the usual Big Society bullsh1te rhetoric), smaller 'social enterprises' by healthcare rofessionals are likely to be muscled out of the way/taken over by the big health corps - and Assura etc have already demonstrated a readiness to run to the lawyers if they feel they are being denied a slice of the NHS pie.

I've got nothing against the private sector - it plays a major role in mixed-economy continental healthcare (as part of a better-invested, highly regulated social insurance model, of course...) - but I'm sure as hell opposed to fragmenting decent, cost-effective services in the name of 'competition'. Especially if that means consortia simply profting from NHS capacity (Circle healthcare, I'm looking at you), with no commensurate improvement in outcomes.

Can't stop & chat... .

Ernie - Could you point to the clauses in the bill rather than the viewpoint of vested interests?

Aren't vested interests allowed? That would make politics a bit boring.

The kind of answer you're trying to get from Ernie is the one that more or less states that the bill does not mention that it will privatise large parts of the NHS.

Everyone however can see where this is going.

mefty - Member

Ernie - Could you point to the clauses in the bill rather than the viewpoint of vested interests?

😀

So the BMA has a "vested interest" to stop privatisation, a "vested interest" to put patients before profit?

It's an absolute disgrace !!!!

.

Makes you wonder why the government wanted consultations with the healthcare professions eh ? Presumably their opinions are only valid if they are in agreement with them ?

If the NHS isn't working can I please have the night off?

I was chatting with a colleague last night who does some agency work, for a night shift in intensive care he gets £40 an hour overnight. That's just for turning up and working as part of a nursing team, with no additional responsibility. I get £20 an hour for being in charge of the unit, and the unit next door and occasionally being the senior nurse covering another two units.

Any move towards more private sector healthcare provision is likely to be rather more expensive than most would think.

crikey - Member

Any move towards more private sector healthcare provision is likely to be rather more expensive than most would think.

I expect it to be pretty bloody expensive. Yet even then, you're probably right.

I was chatting with a colleague last night who does some agency work, for a night shift in intensive care he gets £40 an hour overnight.

That may well be the case but you'll have the last laugh when you pick up your pension .................................. ohhh !! 😐

If it makes you feel any better, some of the bank Paras who were working in my area (at a similarly higher rate to what you've outlined above) have been stung as the contractor has gone bust (allegedly!). £2-4k seems to be the figure most have lost.

You take your chances and all that..................

Pick up my pension?
It'll be too big to pick up, I'll need a wheelbarrow...

Any move towards more private sector healthcare provision is likely to be rather more expensive than most would think.

Exactly. There'll be lots of platitudes about choice n' competition - and rising costs (and, I bet, bureaucracy - as was the case with the previous internal market reforms).

When the NHS is at its best, it's because of co-operation & collaboration. Fragmenting those kind of working relationships will prove to be expensive, IMO.

Thank you NHS. My Mrs would be dead by now without you.

[url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/oct/15/liam-fox-resignation-exposes-tories ]So anyone want to have a chat about this? [/url]

Looks like the Tories are playing games again,

So anyone want to have a chat about this?

OK. The Taxpayers Alliance, which as everyone knows is a Tory front organisation, makes no secret of its close links with the Tea Party movement in the US. It openly states that it wishes to replicate the success of the Tea Party movement here in the UK. As a consequence, right-wing Tory politicians have forged close links with the Republican Right.

Liam Fox is no exception, and when he was Shadow Health Minister he worked closely (along with Adam Werrity of course) with the Republican Right who are very strongly opposed to "socialised" healthcare.

Apart from the Tea Party movement, Liam Fox, as Shadow Health Minister, has worked with other US neo-con organisations. One of them was the Galen Institute. The Galen Institute's stated mission is "advancing free-market ideas in health policy". It is the "only free-market think tank solely dedicated to...putting individuals rather than corporate or government bureaucrats in charge of health care decisions." In other words it supports the American healthcare model.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galen_Institute

Something which Liam Fox also clearly supports. And the proof is here :

[url= http://www.galen.org/component,8/action,show_content/id,13/blog_id,677/category_id,10/type,33/ ]International Health Systems.Health & the UK[/url]

You'll note that the article dated May 9, 2003, states :

[i]I'm writing this from London where I am meeting with our colleagues in the free-market policy community here and taking notes on the success that Dr. David Green and his colleagues at the Institute for the Study of Civil Society are having with their UK Consensus Group. [u]They and their colleagues from other market-based think tanks here are injecting free-market ideas into a health system that is 90% controlled by government[/u].

Even though the health sectors in Britain and the U.S. are very, very different, the similarities in policy recommendations are surprisingly similar. For example, the 15 signatories to the [u]UK Consensus Group statement calling for reform of the National Health Service have recommended a consumer-choice model based upon the Federal Employees Health Benefits Program in the U.S[/u].

I'm here to talk about President Bush's framework for Medicare reform and discuss ways that we can learn from each other about making this idea a reality - on both sides of the Atlantic.

Creating a bridge for an exchange of ideas that empower individuals also is the mission of the Atlantic Bridge, [u]a new organization founded by Dr. Liam Fox, the courageous and market-savvy Shadow Health Minister here[/u]. The Atlantic Bridge is holding its first major conference this Saturday in Oxford and I've been invited to speak to explore the question: "How much health care can we afford?"

It's very exciting indeed to see the energy and enthusiasm around free-market ideas here. [/i]

But wait ......Liam Fox supports "socialised" healthcare in the UK. He doesn't support free-market reforms to the NHS - no Tory politician would do that. The Tories have clearly stated that they will not introduce privatisation into the NHS. They have no mandate to do that. And they wouldn't mislead the British public, as the BMA has stated.

The right-wing of the Tory Party doesn't have a "hidden agenda".

Only they have.

As that article clearly shows.

As their actions clearly show.

FTFY