That's a good read, thanks for that.
I’m pretty sure the 3-in-1 bit is pretty fundamental to that ?
Antitrinitarianism is rare mostly because, as you say, it was so heavily persecuted but I think most of us speaking to an Arian would consider them Christian assuming we didnt know the finer parts of theology.
The "muttering magic words over some bread (etc.) literally change it to flesh?"isnt held by all the different denominations. The Roman Catholics believe in a version of it as do the Orthodox but the Protestants go from agreeing with that to saying its purely spiritual or even its just a reenactment of sorts.
Newton really was a hardcore believer albeit one who would be considered by many other Christians a heretic.
Cougar
In Chicago a couple of years back I got approached by a beggar (Chicago is lovely but it is awash with panhandlers for some reason). I said “I’m sorry, I’m from England, we did away with money years ago.” He was like “gosh, wow, sorry, I had no idea!”
Amusing story but it also illustrates the difference between "doing away with money" and a "cashless society" and how people accept or can easily confuse or conflate one with the other unless you/they actually think about the differences and how that defines (or not) "conspiracy theories".
Not knowing any other conversation that occurred I'll just presume its an amusing anecdote.. because it doesn't really matter if he/she believed you or just recognised he/she wasn't getting any cash from you.
From the beggars perspective I can imagine the "that's cool so how do you buy food or how did you pay for the airline ticket to the USA" but you can equally see someone for whom lack of money being so fundamental to their life that they could just imagine a system where people are just given what they need. If that sounds really far out then a not insignificant amount of Americans believe the same or variations of on the NHS and the evils of socialised medicine.
I guess that's where you get a grey area between facts, mis-information and disinformation ... and where that comes as to which definition of a conspiracy you take.
a secret plan agreed by many people -
to (in the direction of harm/legality)
a secret agreement made between two or more people or groups to do something bad or illegal that will harm someone else
to
a secret agreement made between two or more people or groups to do something bad or illegal that will harm everyone else
depending on what you see/define as "harm" that goes in another vector (or not) as does "what does everyone mean - as a group or as individuals".
Take Flat earth .. on one side where is the "harm" if people choose to believe this? On the other you can argue the "harm" is in preparing people/society to accept lies above observable fact and distrust what should be authoritative sources.
We can take the "social medicine" argument as an example.
if you don't live in the USA then the fact that many companies depend on private healthcare seems rather obvious ... that they wish to continue to make profit seems obvious etc. but there is equally the fact that social medicine is not always the best for an individual and there are limits to what can be provided to everyone. (with current tech at least)
As I said earlier conspiracy theories almost always contain some truths... so in the social medicine there are always cases of someone being denied some treatment that has been determined not to be cost effective or has inconclusive benefits etc. and there is the question of edge cases "is everyone as an individual" vs is "everyone as a group" "better off".
That the rich "conspire" to get richer and those in power "conspire" for more power I find hard to view as a conspiracy in itself. Rather I see the dis-information and mis-information as more a conspiracy and in these I see the same thing especially in the use of social media.
Not knowing any other conversation that occurred I’ll just presume its an amusing anecdote.. because it doesn’t really matter if he/she believed you or just recognised he/she wasn’t getting any cash from you.
I can't remember the exact phrasing now, I might've said "cash" rather than "money," or "we don't carry money" or some such. I'd have taken notes if I'd known there was going to be a test. 😁
TBH, it was an off-the-cuff quip because randoms asking for money was so prevalent and I was losing patience. I counted 11 in one day. Some looked genuinely homeless, some were clearly taking the piss and a few were outright aggressive. I feigned deafness with one particularly scary individual. Another on the L (light railway, think Tube or Metro) with a literally captive audience delivering a clearly well-rehearsed "ladies and gentlemen" speech about how he needed money for insulin, I flirted with the idea of offering to take him to the nearest Walgreens but, well, they have guns in this country.
I've never known anything quite like it. I love the US, I loved my time in Chicago and met some fascinating and amazing people. I'd go back in a heartbeat, but my god they have a problem there.
I flirted with the idea of offering to take him to the nearest Walgreens
You might have been shocked at the cost, I think the co-pay for insulin in the US could be prohibitive for many employed people if they don't have an "executive health package".
And that is a real conspiracy, the way the health industry in the US conspires with the political class to deny the people the health care they need, and the media largely side with them. This corruption is sowing the seed of conspiracy theories, everyone knows the problem but the causes are ignored and instead lies are spread.
Antitrinitarianism is rare mostly because, as you say, it was so heavily persecuted but I think most of us speaking to an Arian would consider them Christian assuming we didnt know the finer parts of theology.
The "devil" is in the detail though... you don't really need to dig too deep in pre-nicene factions for those details to be fairly big. (or from the other side if you basically include something like zorasartianism as loosly the same or mithrism - lots of pre Jesus cults share mid winter birthdays or rising again after 3 days) much of the OT is borrowed/adapted etc. from various other mid eastern religions
The “muttering magic words over some bread (etc.) literally change it to flesh?”isnt held by all the different denominations. The Roman Catholics believe in a version of it as do the Orthodox but the Protestants go from agreeing with that to saying its purely spiritual or even its just a reenactment of sorts.
So even the (catholic) pope now allows gluten free host.. that seems to indicate an acceptance that perhaps its not quite a 100% thing... and that's the example of how it's all in the details. Something many people were burned alive for (at the direct instructions of their gods chosen pope) .. then when we have scientific methods that prove beyond any doubt its still bread it's finally accepted.
The reason I brought it up though is to illustrate the difference between something can't be proven or disproven and something that can.
I don't personally believe it but I can see how it's plausible some technically advanced alien (or aliens) could have been involved in everything from creation of our whole universe to even seeding life on earth or even playing a little game and turning up from time to time.
What is implausible is that they/it created earth some 6000 years ago AND deliberately made it look older by planting fake evidence or they told us magic words that turn bread into flesh.
This is the "today" and what goes in which box depends WHEN in (scientific) history.
Newton really was a hardcore believer albeit one who would be considered by many other Christians a heretic.
He was certainly hardcore .. though largely a what and when.
My comment on Newton was about what he said in public vs his private diaries but what he believed seems to have changed through his life.
My comment on Lemaitre was that believing in a supreme being is different to believing the literal 6 days or literal 6000 years or literal bread into flesh.
As the man himself said ...
"We may speak of this event as of a beginning. I do not say a creation. Physically it is a beginning in the sense that if something happened before, it has no observable influence on the behavior of our universe, as any feature of matter before this beginning has been completely lost by the extreme contraction at the theoretical zero. Any preexistence of the universe has a metaphysical character...The question if it was really a beginning or rather a creation, something started from nothing, is a philosophical question which cannot be settled by physical or astronomical considerations."
Cougar
I’d have taken notes if I’d known there was going to be a test.
not a test... the real point is illustrated by @MSP (not just insulin)
MSP
And that is a real conspiracy, the way the health industry in the US conspires with the political class to deny the people the health care they need, and the media largely side with them. This corruption is sowing the seed of conspiracy theories, everyone knows the problem but the causes are ignored and instead lies are spread.
Except it's deeper really... I don't have numbers but I'd bet more people who would hugely benefit from social medicine are more rabidly against it than the "Democrat/Independent" middle classes
