Forum menu
No it's not it's all bin explained propply if you din't understand it then that's not my fault.I'm right and this argument is done. Move on now please, thanks.
Amazingly, my prediction came true. Was anyone else struggling with the concept?
But we have never paid the real costs of our oil based economy - we have never bothered to put a price on the real value of things like clean water, biodiversity, worker safety in far off places, cost of disposal of plastics etc etc. In fact the real "stealth" was in keeping all of these real costs hidden. It is true that now we are starting to have to recognise some of these but I think it is the opposite of stealth - it is the revealing of the true costs.
Very true. Basically, our developed existence has been heavily subsidised by the environment. Now that subsidy is running out, things are starting to cost a lot more...
Fred - your dimmers will probably use the same electricity whether dimmed or not.
Extremely unlikely. He'd have to have very archaic dimmer switches.
It occurred to me - how come the greenies like electric cars, but don't like electric light bulbs?
dark greens don't like electric cars - they are a greenwash 🙂
the only green car is "no car"
You know which sort of greens I was referring to, TJ...
For reference, I own an old car, which there would be little green benefit in me disposing of - and I've only filled it up twice since September.
The thing is, TJ, cars are quite essential for the modern world TO A DEGREE.
The transport mix for typical journeys (not exceptional ones) could end up being say 10% foot, 40% bike, 40% mass transport and 10% car, but cars would still be needed. There are people whose jobs require mobility, there are rural locations and so on.
Given that, electric cars might be very important. Especially if renewable electricity generation takes off. The only other source would be biomass which would perhaps be feasible if car mileage was slashed by a factor of 10 or more.
aracer - MemberYou know which sort of greens I was referring to, TJ...
????
[img]
[/img]
molgrips - until someone creates a battery that orders of magnitude more effective and cheaper electric cars will never be significant
require far more range and load carrying that an electric car can provide with current tech.There are people whose jobs require mobility, there are rural locations and so on.
Fred - your dimmers will probably use the same electricity whether dimmed or not.
Extremely unlikely. He'd have to have very archaic dimmer switches.
Explain this please.
I do know that the front room uses a 'modern' type dimmer cos the 'older' type ones don't work with Halogen bulubs apparently. I know nothing about this though. Must be science stuffs.
(Do I dare tell the Energy Saving Nazis about the 19 50W Halogen spots my dim (!) layndlord installed in this flat?)
Explain this please.
"Modern" dimmers use electronics which switch the supply on and off at high speed (well 100Hz 😉 ), not the resistor TooTall seems to be assuming. Hence no wasted energy (well a little in the electrickery, but <<1W).
Can't see why a halogen bulb would have any problems working with either type of dimmer though - you may have been given some "sales talk" there.
require far more range and load carrying that an electric car can provide with current tech
Doubt it. The midwives and health visitors who come to our house cover a fairly compact area of Cardiff.
Part of the solution, I'm sure.
seems to be assuming
I did say 'probably'. Doesn't Fred live in some sort of (evidently well-lit) East End haarsin projekt or slum or whatever they have for the disposessed in that end of town? I thought he was lucky not to have gas lamps never mind modern fittings.
Mind you - a few 5W LED replacement G10s would save a fortune if he turns those spots on.
Anyway, is anybody going to answer the question of why halogen bulbs are so awful if electric cars are so wonderful?
Well halogen bulbs are not energy efficient compared to the alternatives. Electric cars are (or maybe depending on who you talk to).
molgrips - Member"require far more range and load carrying that an electric car can provide with current tech"
Doubt it. The midwives and health visitors who come to our house cover a fairly compact area of Cardiff.
Have a look at the miles covered and the range of electric cars.
Its a simple nonsense.
They are not energy efficient eiother.
They are not energy efficient eiother.
Compared to what? They're much worse than a bicycle, certainly.
Bout 70-100 miles typically, isn't it? I'd wager there are many travelling workers who do far less than that. And I seem to remember reading that even with current electricity generation they would only emit about 40g/km CO2, which is a lot less than even a small car in urban and suburban driving.
Ransos - I'd love to see our health visitor turn up on a bike with a trailer full of her weighing scales, files and other gear, but I doubt it'll happen any time soon 🙂
For an electric car you take chemical energy ( mainly) and make it into electrical energy - that has conversion losses. then transmit it down power lines - more losses then charge a battery - more losses then convert it into mechanical energy - more losses. There is also the weight of the batteries to lug around
They are not significantly more efficient that petrol cars in terms of co2 output per mile driven.
Over the lifetime probably less as the difficulty of making the batteries and their short life has a significant effect.
Anyway, is anybody going to answer the question of why halogen bulbs are so awful if electric cars are so wonderful?
They are both crap. Electric cars are a shocking use of resources in the way they are manufactured and difficult for many to use with the lack of infrastructure in place. Halogen bulbs have been surpassed by LED. Happy?
I know how it works thanks TJ, you don't have to explain it.
I am referring to several studies that I have read (but no longer have links to) that have analysed it (instead of just guessing) and come up with a figure at the highest end of about 40g/km.
In your utopia, how would say nurses get around for home visits? Assuming you need a few bags for kit?
They are not energy efficient eiother.
This is rather a silly sweeping thing to say. The implication is that the development of the electric car has stopped, whereas it is still in the rather early stages. Batteries are getting better all the time and materials are getting lighter. Also, it depends where the electricity comes from. Various people have talked about using the batteries in electric cars as a way of storing/using off peak energy in a way that might help make overall production of electricity more efficient.
Imagine if the development of the bicycle had ended with the penny farthing - efficient?
In your utopia, how would say nurses get around for home visits? Assuming you need a few bags for kit?
What are you on about? They would do it as they do now.
🙄
Electric cars are simply not good enough now nor is there any likely hood in the near future of them being good enough. Per mile they are not significantly less polluting, total lifetime it looks even worse.
Well halogen bulbs are not energy efficient compared to the alternatives.
Not energy efficient how? What happens to the energy they "waste"?
I am referring to several studies that I have read (but no longer have links to) that have analysed it (instead of just guessing) and come up with a figure at the highest end of about 40g/km.
How convenient that you don't have links to them 🙄
[url= http://www.renault-ze.com/fr-fr/ma-vie-electrique/video-autonomie-81442.html ]Renault[/url] are claiming up to 185km for the best of their current range. If I had a regular commute to do I'd buy one at 21 300e and 82e per month for the batteries. Recharge at night when France has an electricity surplus or from solar panels. I don't commute though and have only filled my car once since the summer.
Given my low mileage keeping the 20-year-old car I've got makes more ecological sense. The energy cost of building a new electric car and keeping it in batteries would be greater than putting petrol in my old car for the same period.
Renault make I good case for most car users with the exception of their holiday trips.
Green movement = nonsense.
"Modern" dimmers use electronics which switch the supply on and off at high speed (well 100Hz ), not the resistor TooTall seems to be assuming. Hence no wasted energy (well a little in the electrickery, but <<1W).
Ah right. Well they were bought new recently, so I think they might be 'modern' types although I have no way of knowing this. Neither get at all warm though.
Can't see why a halogen bulb would have any problems working with either type of dimmer though - you may have been given some "sales talk" there.
My mistake; it was to do with the high wattage in the front room (12x50W =600W of lighting, ridiculous!). The original switches just gave up.
I have looked into LEDs, but once again, the cost far outweighs any monetary savings for me personally. Call me selfish, but I'm not splashing out 19x£10 or whatever (thattul be about what ittul cost seeing as how 12 need to be dimmable). I might have a chat with me layndlord see if we can't work something out but considering how little I use the lights in the front room (use side lamps) the 'saving' will not work out for me, as I'm not going to be living here for long enough for it to make economic sense. The next tenants might benefit from it, but I'm not wealthy enough to provide others with economic savings, however altruistic and socialist that would be. If anyone can find me some GU10 dimmable 50W equivalent spots for less than wunundred pounds for say 20 of them, let me know. I may replace the ones in the kitchen and bathroom though, but I'll be wanting money off the LL for that too.
But tbh I might be out of here in a few months, so there woodunt be much point. Rather pay a few quid a year extra as it stands.
Can someone work out how much ittud cost to run a 100W bulb for say 6 hours a day (really rough estimated daily use over a year), for one year, over an ES one at 20W?
Doesn't Fred live in some sort of (evidently well-lit) East End haarsin projekt or slum or whatever they have for the disposessed in that end of town? I thought he was lucky not to have gas lamps never mind modern fittings.
Do you ever get out of your little bubble at all? Or pull yer head out from yer bum, to have a look around you once in a while?
What? Sorrry? I'm a better dancer than you so please be quiet. Thx bai.
What are you on about? They would do it as they do now.
No rolling eyes please. I was asking how you would see different types of transport being used in the future in your ideal world. You know, constructive discussion? 🙂
Many of us could of course work remotely, and many could use mass transit, but there are limits. Would you just continue to burn dinosaurs for those who actually need personal transport?
How convenient that you don't have links to them
You think I am making it up or something? Deliberately trying to mislead you to score points on the internet?
I reported it how I remembered it. But I did not bookmark the pages.
Would you just continue to burn dinosaurs for those who actually need personal transport?
when there is no cleaner functional alternative yes.
Electric cars simply do not come close to being viable.
Yeah but unless people keep making and improving electric cars, we won't ever have owt efficient.
Lectric lightbulb was invented several thousand years ago. It was far more 'efficient' than any other form of lighting a building. Now we have Energy Saving bulbs. Had the original 'innefficent by today's standards' incandescent bulb not bin invented, we'd not have the ES ones and probbly still be burning even more fossil fuels to provide lighting for our homes.
Got to start somewhere, in't yer?
I take it you're still using a Charles Babbage machine to do internets?
Renault claim 185 km or 115 miles. So in reality that will be less in actual use or much less in winter with lights and heater on. Then if you want short charge times and long battery life you need to only partially charge and recharge so then you need some reserve so the practical range will be lucky to be half that.
I am quite happy for efforts to make electric cars to continue and for short urban commutes they are viable now. fro the likes of district nurses tehy are nearly there but not there yet and there remains the pollution aspect which is hard to get away from
Some journalists were given a fluence and did better than the claimed mileage driving carefully: over 200km. Doing their best to flatten the battery they still got 150ish. The Renault claim seems realistic unless you live in a ski resort.
This is the future for urban personal transportation. If only people would stop being such brainless idiots and realise it, like the stupid cah trying to reverse a gert big Chelsea tractor through some closely parked cars earlier, then having a go at me cos I just waited, rather than go up on the pavement to go round her. TBH I was finding her pathetic 'driving' quite amusing, and told her she might be better off getting a smaller car she could actually see what she was doing in, rather than using a flipping tank in a congested urban area. Thick as pigpoo, some folk, not to mention utterly selfish.
Any way I digress...
Ta-da!
[img] 
[/img]
I'd like to see one of those meet an angry bus/lorry.
Yeah but if there were more little cars like that on the roads, there'd be more space, less congestion, and less stress. So people woodunt be doing the kind of stupid things that lead to accidents, as much. Plus, urban traffic speeds are much lower so impact forces are too. And I'm sure with modern technology, something that size could be made to be just as safe as larger cars. Bung soft rubber bits on buses and lorries.
The woman mentioned will be in the same place same time each day. I may go there every day, just to laugh at her.
if there were more little cars like that on the roads
As the missus said last night, that's the only time I'd even think of using something like that. Infact it'd have to be the majority of cars. Can't see them being much cop in the winter months, though...
You think I am making it up or something? Deliberately trying to mislead you to score points on the internet?
Given the quick search I did came up with much higher figures than that (and none making claims anywhere near close), I wasn't quite sure what conclusion to draw about such claims being made by somebody clearly in love with the electric car concept.
This is the future for urban personal transportation
[img] 
[/img]
FTFY
No because not everyone can use a two-wheeled vehicle.
I have actually bin thinking about the feasibility of a small electric car type thing for use in town. With a little detachable trailer, to transport extra stuffs in. TBH the concept would be far easier using a small petrol engine, as that's the tech we have set up. Until leccy vehicle tech has reached a stage where we can feasibly have charging points all over our towns and cities (why not; there are lamp posts all over the place), then it will be a poor option.
I'd love something like that little Renault thing. I could nip about all over the place in one of those.
Mind you, I already can on my bike. Today went somewhere 9 miles each way, which is longer than the average urban journey by private vehicle. all under my own steam, keeping fit and producing no toxic emissions.
(Goes to switch on all the halogen lights in the house)
Running a 100W bulb continuously costs about £100 a year (I don't know how much leccy costs in London but that won't be far out). Three 3.8W LED bulbs would use about £9 in electricity, produce more light and cost about £12 each to buy. You'd have to fit a couple of extra light fittings, say a tenner each and switches at a pound. You'd then have the possibility of three different light levels. How long it would take to pay for the change depends on how many hours a day you use the light.
Not energy efficient how? What happens to the energy they "waste"?
The bulb is 50W to power and provide the light. The equivalent LED bulb is perhaps 4 or 5W for the same light. So - a tenth of the input power for the same light. Different technology and the halogen bulb turns more of the electriciy into heat rather than light.
bikes are horrible little polluting things as well if you look at a full LCA
The mining and refining of metals
the manufacturing of all our lovely shiny things,
the use of high gloss voc paints, TGIC containing powder coats etc
the 100 plus chemicals that go into a modern rubber manufacture for tyres plus the significant energy consumption in the milling and curing of the rubber
the fact that carbon fibre can't fully be recycled and the possibility that carbon nano tubes may have long term effects much like asbestos
the transportation costs
and so on
the only green option is to walk, barefoot.....in the nip.....back to your mud hut then you may reduce your carbon footprint...a little bit
OP wanders back into thread scratching his head .....
Really didn't expect this to run so long but now it has I'll risk the wrath of the dark greens and pose a question 😈
Purely for the devil of it,
As I understand things it is a commonly held belief in some quarters that the current spell of global warming roughly coincides with increased fossil fuel burning etc over the last 400 approx years and is mainly due to the actions of humans...
What if .... And bear with me here .... Just supposing ... There was another much bigger factor at work at the same time, one that had NO human influence what so ever .... Could it just be that this factor is a much more likely reason for increased global warming AND depletion of the Ozone layer ?
And please it's not meant to be a cop out, excuse, or any other criticism you may want to throw my way BUT just look into the South Atlantic Anamoly and then tell me that there is no way the earths magnetic field could not be at least partly the reason for climate change .... I for 1 am sure that however big we humans think we are, Mother Nature sure KNOWS she is and always will be bigger
TJ,
We've discussed the concept of electric cars before. Your argument for renewables, as ever, is that there will be major improvements over current proven tech.
Why is it therefore, that unless anything you seem to disagree with is already at the pinnacle, you refuse to accept the concept that they will improve with further development?
For the record, most of the cars that Adelaide city council use are electric. They seem to work just fine. Certainly urban and suburban home-service seems the most likely industry where electric cars will have their first application. Long distance in rural areas where public transport is inefficient, and you're looking at H2 fuel cells - the intractable issue here is what's going to produce the H2?
Oil is running out, especially in terms of energy return. This is the main reason the cost keeps going up - it costs a lot more to get at it than just drilling a hole and up it comes. Light green, dark green, or a vague shade of yellow, unless radical changes are made to how modern society works, we're going to need a substitute to oil pretty soon. If everyone stopped driving, there would be a lot of hungry uneducated, ill, people sat in the cold and dark. Not an image that'll even get FishFace elected again...
What if .... And bear with me here .... Just supposing ... There was another much bigger factor at work at the same time, one that had NO human influence what so ever .... Could it just be that this factor is a much more likely reason for increased global warming AND depletion of the Ozone layer ?
No. Next question, please.
Thousands of the world's brightest people are working on this, and all have come to more or less the same conclusion. What makes you think they'd have missed something as obvious as this? Moreover, what makes you think that increasing the inputs of gases proven to cause warming at rates much faster than ever observed in the ice core and geological records will have absolutely no effect?
Good trolling though...