[Closed] The Emporers Not Wearing any clothes....

Because people want to believe in something? Because some people want the security that a belief gives them?

Personally, I think it's a joke. I believe in myself and the people around me, not some invisible thing, but the "being nice to other people" thing at the core of most religions seems like a good thing to adhere to.

Where to start?

Well, firstly the word is "Emperor".

Secondly, what has David Beckham's choice of hotel got to do with organised religion and/or what occurs in Westminster?

*Confused*

In short why do we put up with all this crap?

I take it you mean your poor linking skills- goes to the Beckham story for me.

Is this some scurrilous and unfounded accusation about Becks in the showers? I'm confused

yep - I'm sure if he can afford £14,000 a night for hotel rooms he can afford a decent lawyer to sue you for libel..........

Having demonstrated his ability to say "bonjour" at press conferences, David Beckham will at least be able to greet his personal butler.

?

should that be butt-ler in this context?

Soz: Not quite sure how thats happened, but this is the story I linked too

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21572724 ]Cardinal sin[/url]

Wouldn't this be an ecumenical matter?

Careful now.

Down with that sort of thing!

So how much longer will it be before organised religion is seen for what it is and ceases to exist?

Serious answer: in the UK 2 more generations. Compare our generations religiosity with our grandparents' generation. Extrapolate that forward to your childrens' children.

So how much longer will it be before organised religion is seen for what it is

What, the belief that we should love each other (as Jesus loved us, in the Christian way of things)?

The sooner we get rid of that idiotic notion, the better.

You must be really stupid to put your faith in love.

You must be really stupid to fall for a belief in love over all.

and you must be struggling to seperate the concept of personal belief systems from the word organised

I am struggling to see the difference between 'religion' and 'organised religion', yes.

And here we go again....
[img] [/img]

Religion won't disappear. It'll just change. In a bit we'll all be wearing t shirts with this on

[img] [/img]

Because if we don't, a big beardy, shouty bloke will chop our arms off with a big sword. Then we'll go misty-eyed and long for the halcyon days of being touched up by a bloke in a frock after choir practice

On a logical note, if a teacher or nurse is found to be making 'inappropriate advances', does that mean that 'organised education' or 'organised healthcare' should cease to exist?

What about all these celebrities being questioned about inappropriate advances, and worse: an end to 'organised entertainment'?

Notice I didn't list politicians. Hoping for an end to 'organised politics' might make me look like a loony.

and here we go again....

lol, sometimes it's fun to join in though

Wouldn't this be an ecumenical matter?

😆

Spot on!

Nice Father Ted reference!

For emphasis..

[img] [/img]

You must be really stupid to put your faith in love.

On a logical note, if a teacher or nurse is found to be making 'inappropriate advances', does that mean that 'organised education' or 'organised healthcare' should cease to exist?

This is an interesting point. I personally don't think we should abandon religion because of one or two perverts. I think we should abandon it because its patently absurd.

Besides we have better systems of control for society now anyway

Are we saying that the cardinal is a nuncio?

touched a nerve Knobby by any chance?

If you read what I wrote, the question I posed was how much longer before either the thing collapes or we demand change?

Seems to me that as things stand, its intolerable, i.e. when the top gun in the UK Catholic church is found to be a a bit more than a tad hypocritical, but thats no different though than corrupt and immoral politicians, and so again I wonder at what point folk at large will reject what they stand for and demand better, or have we all just become immune to it and have simply come to accept the shabbyness of it all as the way things are?

Personally it properly hacks me off.

Not read the full thread but I love the Father Ted reference up there 🙂

touched a nerve Knobby by any chance?

Um, no, you're alright.

or have we all just become immune to it and have simply come to accept the shabbyness of it all as the way things are?

That sense of immunity - or numbness - and mute acceptance of shabbiness are some of the things I find Christianity helps to relieve.

It sort of forces me to ask myself how much 'being a nice person' is just a theoretical defence for laziness, and how much I actually do to help other people. So I find myself doing things that otherwise I might not, and they make me feel better about life.

The RC church has a very particular problem , patriarchal authoritarianism seems to have run its course in a modern world yet they cling to it to lick limpets.....

personally don't think we should abandon religion because of one or two perverts. I think we should abandon it because its patently absurd.

At least that's logical. 🙂

The man has been one of the most outspoken critics of homosexuality in the country
spreading the christian spirit of hatred and prejudice
all the time forcing himself on other men, whilst wearing a dress
and until now safely protected by the all loving church

the church is so arse about face they may as well elect dawkins as pope

Compare our generations religiosity with our grandparents' generation. Extrapolate that forward to your childrens' children.

Are we still just talking about Roman Catholics here, or are you looking at all religions and cultures? For the record, Islam is growing in the UK (as in, active observance of it, not like the nominal "Christians" who do the odd wedding and funeral but are otherwise irreligious).

the church is so arse about face they may as well elect dawkins as pope

Apparently Paddy Power are offering odds of 666-1. 😀

The man has been one of the most outspoken critics of homosexuality in the country
spreading the christian spirit of hatred and prejudice
all the time forcing himself on other men, whilst wearing a dress
and until now safely protected by the all loving church

NIce wee rant Kimbers, but..
- the christian spirit isn't about hatred and prejudice
- it doesn't seem he forced himself on others- made advances, sure.
- nowt wrong with wearing a dress if you're a man, and that's no indicator of sexuality anyway
- but it's not a dress anyway, is it
- what's the church protecting him from?

The man has been one of the most outspoken critics of homosexuality in the country
spreading the christian spirit of hatred and prejudice
all the time forcing himself on other men, whilst wearing a dress
and until now safely protected by the all loving church

The 'official' stances on homosexuality, female bishops etc, are probably the main reasons I find it so difficult to say "I am a Christian".

as in, active observance of it, not like the nominal "Christians" who do the odd wedding and funeral but are otherwise irreligious

Attending Friday prayers does not equate to active observance, there are a quite a few "nominal" muslims too.

The 'official' stances on homosexuality, female bishops etc, are probably the main reasons I find it so difficult to say "I am a Christian".

But these stances are bound to particular sects of a religion, aren't they, lots of people have managed to incorporate acceptance of homosexuality and so on within their own christian belief system.

Not sure that I'd agree with that, I reckon that attending church once a week would be where I'd start looking at drawing the line between "active" Christians and the weddings-and-funerals lot. Ultimately, who can define what is / isn't active observance?, but based on how people self-identify on that one, Islam is growing in the UK. Whether that means they pray five times a day, I don't know.

[s]

the question I posed was how much longer before either the thing collapes or we demand change?

Who is the "we" in this sentence? Does it actually include you, or is it a rhetorical 'we'? Someone Else, in other words?

What is stopping you from demanding change yourself? Beyond posting about it on a mountainbike forum?

Go out in the world and do something, if it's what you believe in.[/s]

edit: can I retract this on grounds of pomposity?

But these stances are bound to particular sects of a religion, aren't they, lots of people have managed to incorporate acceptance of homosexuality and so on within their own christian belief system.

Yep, it's just a shame that non-acceptance seems to have a level of 'official' sanction, which affects the popular view of religion as a whole and skews conversations like this one.

Arse. Pheck.

The only time I go into a church is to look at the architechture, look for green man carvings and take photos.

Organised religion is basically a system of control.

Essentially its a series of rules claiming divine providence for keeping the general public in order.

Things which are deemed bad for the collective good of society are therefore "sins"
Life for a lot of people is or was really hard. Your reward for a lifetime of thankless toil was a place in heaven. Of course in order to get to heaven you had to follow the rules set out by whatever religion you were following. Regular donations to the church / temple / mosque also helped.

In fact in the middle ages you could pay the church to absolve you of sin. I actually think this was one of the reason why Martin Luther kicked of the Reformation

I find Christianity helps to relieve.

You see thats where I diverge from your view. Christianity, as in the organised structure of religion leaves me cold. Pretty much the same with all other religions too. However, that is not to say that I reject the morality of religion at large, in fact if anything the reverse is true. I cannot accept the "Church" because of my broadly Christian beliefs. Not least being that which tells me that just because it is difficult to stand up and denounce something which is self evidently wrong, it does not excuse me if I take the path of least resistance and ignore it.

I think I see where you're coming from.

Berm Bandit - Member

You see thats where I diverge from your view. Christianity, as in the organised structure of religion leaves me cold. Pretty much the same with all other religions too. However, that is not to say that I reject the morality of religion at large,

It sounds to me that you are interested in 'humanity' and helping out other people for the greater good.

As far as I can tell, this doesn't require organised religion (which often appear to [i]evolve[/i] in a fairly man-made kind of way) or even a belief in a "higher being".

A lot of people do appear to take comfort from belief in something that they know full-well is impossible to demonstrate or prove ...and, by their logic, is therefore impossible to dis-prove. Strong, blind faith in this unprove-able "Higher Being" being important.

Personally, I struggle with this concept.

The cardinal in question was speaking on the radio last Friday. He was in favour of heterosexual marriage for priests, but against homosexual marriage for anyone.

He claimed that he had never given marriage for himself any thought because it wasn't possible for somebody becoming a priest in those days.

Aristotle: there you go, thats where the whole religion business is a problem for me, however that is not to say that the basic tennents are wrong, but overall I reckon about the time that you start pontificating to other people about how what you beleive is the one true way etc etc that then also coincides with the appropriate time for bringing out the ducking stool and stocks.

Actually, thinking about it that also holds true for politicians too.

Berm Bandit - Member

I reckon about the time that you start pontificating to other people about how what you beleive is the one true way etc etc that then also coincides with the appropriate time for bringing out the ducking stool and stocks

Indeed.

I do wonder if the leaders of the various religions genuinely believe that a "Higher Being" has passed the various (changing periodically) rules of their club to them, though, rather than it being them forcing their own prejudices onto other people.

the most senior catholic in the UK describing gay marriage as a

"grotesque subversion of a universally accepted human right".

if thats not spreading prejudice i dont know what is

Are you sure that was a general comment about gay marriage, and not just the bit where they touch each others bottoms?

You know I remember reading that quote and being rather puzzled by it. If it is a unversally accpeted human right then why are they trying to deny it to some people? There are few conclusions that could be drawn, the most charitable of which is that whoever came up with it was being a bit stupid.

When will STW grow the bollocks to confront the increasing problem with Islam in the UK? Or is it only brave enough to ridicule Christianity?

getting back to the OP

i think beckham ought to pay less attention to bottoms too

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@kimbers

That is brilliant! 😆

When will STW grow the bollocks to confront the increasing problem with Islam in the UK?

I don't really think that's our responsibility. We could have a chat about the beards if you like

enfht - Member

When will STW grow the bollocks to confront the increasing problem with Islam in the UK?

Oh, O.K.

Islam.

Arse. Pheck.

i think youll find that from the safety of my pc ill ridicule any religion I like

they are basically all the same, especially islam/christianity/judaism

enfht - Member

When will STW grow the bollocks to confront the increasing problem with Islam in the UK? Or is it only brave enough to ridicule Christianity?

Go on then you start off...

I'd be careful ridiculing Islam though! They don't like that. You'll probably be ok unless you decide to illustrate your point with pictures. There was a bit of a hoo-ha last time someone did that

When will STW grow the bollocks to confront the increasing problem with Islam in the UK

But those guys are nutters; they get all angry and stuff.

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

Thought it was ironic that the vatican got struck by lightning just after the Pope resigned. Reminded me of York minster going up in smoke.

People will always ask 'is there a God? what is the point to all of this'. Others just wont care. I'm sure many (myself included) would say they have had some sort of spiritual experience that transcends this world and leaves people asking deeper questions. You cant prove or disprove it - hence faith in the unseen.

The church has done alot wrong that is totally hypocritical but has made some positive contributions - Mother Teresa, Martin Luther King. But it should get back to demonstrating it's strengths of standing alongside the marginalised and come from a place of humbleness and acceptance of those who are different.

Doing away with religion or faith as advocated by many is just not going to happen. Or the more you try the stronger peoples' faith will become.

dukeduvet - Member

People will always ask 'is their a God? what is the point to all of this'. Others just wont care. I'm sure many (myself included) would say they have had some sort of spiritual experience that transcends this world and leaves them asking deeper questions. You cant prove or disprove it - hence faith in the unseen.

When something happens to you that you can't explain, you presumably do not know what has brought it about, so it's not really [i]faith[/i] is it?

Is it not more a case of [b]hope[/b] that the meaning you have projected onto the situation might possibly be correct?

Having said that, I suppose that it could be [i]faith[/i] in something [i]traditional[/i] that somebody else, who also can't demonstrate or prove it, has told you to be true.

Religions may have done some "good things", but that is not their raison d'être.

you can use pictures to depict the prophet hes just gotta be all flamey headed

[img] [/img]

The chester beaty library in dublin has collections of illustrated manuscripts from all major religions,

including my favourite, [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manichaeism ]Manichaeism[/url]

just because it was so widespread at one point that it couldve overtaken christianity and was later suppressed by the church

binners - Member

Wouldn't this be an ecumenical matter?

all christians must be nutters!

[img] [/img]

Aristotle, what have Hope and their cnc'd goodies got to do with this?!

that seems to be exactly what the Christian faith is all about - hope and that it will be fulfilled.

Kimbers my post was completely tongue in cheek. I even have Muslim friends. Plus my cousin is married to a Kenyan man so I can't be racist

dukeduvet - Member
that seems to be exactly what the Christian faith is all about - hope and that it will be fulfilled.

What are the chances of the thing you are hoping for actually being correct though?

Plus my cousin is married to a Kenyan man so I can't be racist

Hats off there Alex. Post of the year for me, that 😆

well we will all have to wait and see eh!

arent we all kenyans?

http://humanorigins.si.edu/research/east-african-research/adventures-rift-valley-interactive

arent we all kenyans?

Hell yes

This is an interesting point. I personally don't think we should abandon religion because of one or two perverts. I think we should abandon it because [s]its[/s] [i]I Berm Bandit think it is[/i] patently absurd.

FTFY

Besides we have better systems of control for society now anyway

Control society...? Yes of course we do... Or perhaps not!

alex222 - Member
arent we all kenyans?
Hell yes

I am, and so is my wife! 😀

She's travelled, then? Is she from Purley?

think we should abandon it because its I Berm Bandit think it is patently absurd

Just for the record thats not what I said.

t'was I

and I stand buy it.

Can you honestly say the world wouldn't be a better place if we just stopped following religions?

Women in almost all Muslim countries would definitely thank you for it.
Homosexuals in just about every country would thank you for it too.

Sorry Mr Bandit for attributing that to you in error. Apologies to you RichMTB as well. I was mistaken.

RichMTB. If you have abandoned religion because you believe it is absurd that is your prerogative. However, whilst you may think that it doesn't mean others have to abandon it as well. This is what I read into as the "we" in your statement.

Can you honestly say the world wouldn't be a better place if we just stopped following religions?

Most depressing and boring comment of the thread.

I don't like organised religion (I do believe in a beardy wizard in the sky who thinks we should love each other.). Rich you are making some sweeping statements which you can't at all back up.

Women in almost all Muslim countries would definitely thank you for it.

Homosexuals in just about every country would thank you for it too.

Can you honestly say the world wouldn't be a better place if we just stopped following religions?

Can you say it will be? Or will the lust for power and greed continue without the thin veil of religion as an excuse?