[Closed] The Dark Ages - what if they'd never occured?

has to be the printing press with movable type - allowed the fast, cheap dissemination of information.

[i]I've always wondered what single invention/discovery/theory of the past few hundred years pushed us the furthest forward or sparked the most further innovation etc?[/i]

Tubeless tyres?

Silicon chips.

Sliced bread.

Theory of Evolution.

I'm not entirely sure how accurate that graph is, TBH. Things got a whole lot worse in Britain after 1066, and stayed that way for a long time. The Saxons had a pretty good handle on things up until William the Bastard wormed his way in.

Printing press as above. Allowed most people to learn about things rather than just trusting biased/manipulative/etc people to tell them about things (eg the Church in many cases - sorry but it's true. Allowing people to read the bible in English was a massive step as they could then question it and the way they were being interpreted).

when was the printing press invented?

Didn't the bikini win one of those top invention polls a while ago?

Hard to argue with that.

we would all be riding hover scooters by now... or maybe we would all be in Matrix like bubbles living our lives in a virtual world???

No one show this thread to Woppit, OK?

That graph is silly. Who is the "we"? It appears to give credit to ancient Egyptian learning but not that of the Islamic world. As the dark ages in Europe roughly coincided (on that graph's timeline anyway) with the high points of Islamic achievement (not previously replicated by ancient greek or roman scholars) it is not obvious that any time was lost by the world at large.

I'd also suggest that the rate of progress is accelerating, but that there's no reason to assume it would have taken off like a rocket exactly when that graph suggests it would have done. Without thinking about it too hard, I reckon I'd expect to see something more hockey-stick like than that. It's a bit of a reach to suggest that the only reason man hadn't invented the computer in about 1385 was the influence of Christianity. 🙂

Going back to the Islamic learning issue, there's no doubt that that scholarship flourished in a very religious society. It just wasn't religious in the very specific way that got you killed for pointing out that the earth was a bit more spherical than previously thought (much has changed in Islam and many islamic countries since). So it's another big reach to say that Christianity per se had an impact - christianity clearly could have been immensely beneficial, if it had been slightly different.

Anyway, I'm donning my Woppit-proof suit and retreating from these tentative observations. 😉

or maybe we would all be in Matrix like bubbles living our lives in a virtual world???

Or... maybe we already are? 😯

You also have to factor in the repeated waves of Bubonic Plague,which killed between a quarter and a third of the population for 300 years,and then 10-20% for the next 200.At the same time there was a long run of poor crops throughout Europe,at a time before staples such as spuds.And the fact Europe was a large number of small states,more interested in defence that science(with a few exceptions)Monks were the only people who were writing and it was not unusual for you to never travel more than 10 miles from your birthplace in the 35-42 years you existed.As the resident Christian on this site I am not really willing to take the blame on any of the above.The Gutenburg press was invented in the 1400's,but was nicked from the Chinese.

No real difference. The chinese and muslims were inventing and encouraging learning whilst europe was in the dark ages and they still haven't been to the moon 🙂

Also that graph looks so dodgy. How do you quantify the Y axis and surely the Greeks did as much for science (natural philosophy) and technology as the Romans.

That graph is worthless without the corresponding "Number of people paying the slightest bit of attention and with whom you would gladly share a spaceship" curve being shown alongside.

"Hey I've had this great idea about securing the future of humanity"
"Yeah, whatever. Strictly come dancing's on, innit?"

Printing press for science, discovery of Nero's palace for art 🙂

Btw never heard them called the Christian dark ages before...?

My guess is that the philanthropic movements of the Victorian age had a huge impact. People giving scientific education to normal folk and whatnot. Previously, any education was either being trained for the clergy or how to kill people and sing songs..?

surely the Greeks did as much for science (natural philosophy) and technology as the Romans.

What have the Romans ever done for us?

or how to kill people and sing songs..?

A bit like X-factor, right?

Jon1973

What about the roads?

Faraday and his 'Elastic Trickery!'

from BigDummy's prose.. it is bizarre that the Christian world has become more relaxed and open eyed and less of an influence on governments peoples lives.
Whereas Islam has gone the other way, becoming more extreme and controlling some governments of countries.. therefore directly affecting many peoples lives..

I have no point to this I just find it interesting..

Ok,apart from the roads, what have the romans ever done for us?

Romanes eunt domum!

...apart from the Roads

[img] [/img]

Sanitation,do you remember how bad the city used to be like?

this thread is only going one way...

A rather strange graph. Without thinking too hard the following obvious points occur:

1. The Roman Empire in western Europe was Christian when it fell, and was replaced by non-Christian 'barbarians' - it was only several hundred years later that Christianity became a feature in western Europe.

2. The Christian Roman Empire in the eastern mediterranean (Byzantium or Constantinople) continued much as before.

3. The Islamic world which arose later and first competed with and then took over from the Byzantine empire did nothing to destroy the Greek and Roman learning and in fact moved science and maths on quite a long way (ever wonder why we use arabic numbers, or why words like algebra or algorithm sound arabic?)

4. What about China and India?

But then you knew that...

Single invention or theory...

Energy equals mass times gravity, squared.

[img] [/img]

Bloody hell porterclough.. an informed person on STW.. get out!

Woppit that's rubbish.

(uh oh.. )

[i]this thread is only going one way...
[/i]

You say that, but the Master of Strident Dialectical Reasoning has arrived and no-one's been made to feel worthless yet. It may pass off peacefully. 🙂

[i]You say that, but the Master of Strident Dialectical Reasoning has arrived [/i]

That is so crying out for some proper intro music...Duh Duh DUH Dumm dummm dummm

arabic numbers

I'm pretty sure the arabic number system is actually Indian.

from BigDummy's prose.. it is bizarre that the Christian world has become more relaxed and open eyed and less of an influence on governments peoples lives.
Whereas Islam has gone the other way, becoming more extreme and controlling some governments of countries.. therefore directly affecting many peoples lives..

Don't be so sure of the 'lack of influence' Christianity has in the West. In the UK, the Church still wields a lot of power, we are 'ruled' by a monarch born with the 'divine right', Lords Spiritual have the power of veto over new laws, and many of our laws are borne of Christian morality. Elsewhere, Catholicism has a great influence over people, such as in South America. And a fair amount of 'Islamic Extremism' is the construction of a sensationalist Western Media. Perhaps China is a nation less organised along religious grounds, than most others.

Not today.

[img] [/img]

Agriculture and the calender. A long time back but it was only once humans had some time to spare from grubbing around for food that they had the opportunity to sit back and think - I wonder what would happen if..........? And thus science was born.

"Perhaps China is a nation less organised along religious grounds, than most others."

Chinese state has the religion of 'the status quo' to maintain and an all consuming fear of losing it's grip on the populace.

We have strip clubs.. Egypt has strip clubs.. Iraq had strip clubs til recently..Iran I have no idea..(but I doubt it)

the Gentlemans club (not brothel) is a good indicator of how much influence religion has over a society

Why is E=mc2 the most important invention or discovery, Woppit?

the Gentlemans club (not brothel) is a good indicator of how much influence religion has over a society

I doubt that. As many strip clubs in the USA as here, I'd wager.

probably alot more.. but the overbearing control of religion that existed from around 900 - 1000 AD to about the early 1600s is just no thtere anymore here or the states..

in reality there is only really Saudi Arabia it stillexits to that extent.. though the current fella in Iran is trying to do the same the .. its just the populace dont want it.
(Iraq is too disjointed still to be sure what is going to occur there and it was very much the case in Afghanistan 1988 to 2001)

Hmm PeterClough - not that I'm one to confuse matters BUT

1 = given that the Ostrogoth barbarians invading Rome were Arian Christians coming (allegedly) to save Rome from a different bunch of barbarians (haven't we heard that recently) - you could argue it was a bunch of Christians saved by another bunch of Christians.

2 & 3 = the ill educated Roman Christians who sacked/raped/pillaged Constantinople as part of a Crusade (3rd or 4th?) hastened the end of said civilization leading to 3. Importantly this then led the knowledge stored in Constantinople to flood into western Europe educating the Roman Christians (a minor event called the Renaissance)

4. Agreed.

Finally Dark Ages, what Dark Ages, I believe the term is early Medieval Period...

molgrips - Member

Why is E=mc2 the most important invention or discovery, Woppit?

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/einstein/legacy.html

You don't have to explain it to me Woppit.

Why is it more important than say, Schroedinger, Maxwell or Newton?

Dunno, what do you think?

I'd never be so facile (favourite word for STW now 🙂 ) as to cite one single equation as having had more of an effect on the progression of the world than any other!

Oh, O.K., then.

Alien spacebats, Muslim europe, dark ages cancelled, american civil war won by the south, all here [url= http://www.alternatehistory.com ]http://www.alternatehistory.com[/url] a facinating forum.

we should all be in future cities in the sky flying in space cars like the jetsons. You lot take this far too seriously at times. 😉

where's my jetpack and foodpills? eh?

jesus has them apparently 😯

http://flyingjesus.net/

there's nowt as queer as folk