[Closed] The church and homosexuality

Just a smattering of polite applause, looks like he was preaching to a hostile crowd. I sometimes find it amazing how divided a country America is. The big city's, LA and NY etc are generally just as open and forward thinking as we are, if not more so. But massive swaths of the country still seem to be stuck in the dark ages.

What's the vid about. Can't be doing with ignorant ranting this time of the morning 🙄

Basically a pastor stands up and preaches against homosexuals in some sort of government committee, then apologises for mixing up his notes, and bringing quotes that the religious establishment had used against racial integration in the last century.

The church and religion have no place in modern day society, just treat anything anyone says based on religion or in the name of religion as a load of bollox and preserve you own sanity.

****ers.

[img] [/img]

The church and religion have no place in modern day society, just treat anything anyone says based on religion or in the name of religion as a load of bollox and preserve you own sanity.

Very narrow-minded, but everyone's entitled to their opinion ...

MSP,
I got the feeling from the reaction that most of the audience probably thought he had genuinely brought the wrong speech.

After all, this is a nation that renamed the film "The Madness of King George III" to "The Madness of King George", for fear that most Americans would think they had missed the first two prequels.

just treat anything anyone says as a load of bollox and preserve you own sanity.

I think the sooner people stop letting their imaginary friends tell them what to do the better off we will all be.

Religion shouldn't have a place in the world anymore.

After all, this is a nation that renamed the film "The Madness of King George III" to "The Madness of King George", for fear that most Americans would think they had missed the first two prequels.

🙄

[url= http://www.snopes.com/movies/films/george.asp ]Sorry, it's an urban myth[/url]

i tried normality, it was the worst two minutes of my life.

Religion shouldn't have a place in the world anymore.

Cool - just let me know where to drop the keys for our youth centre then - I'm assuming you're volunteering to fill the void?

[i]MSP,
I got the feeling from the reaction that most of the audience probably thought he had genuinely brought the wrong speech.[/i]

Judging by the blank faces, they really didn't get it, did they? They probably still believe all the stuff he said before he told them it was a racial segregation speech anyway.

Cool - just let me know where to drop the keys for our youth centre then - I'm assuming you're volunteering to fill the void?

Have the ditched the bit about how I have to believe in order to volunteer

Luckily for you, there's no faith requirement in order to volunteer - however, it's a big project, and it's run entirely on a voluntary basis, so you'll be needing to quit your job and live on a pittance in order to keep it rolling along...

... and move to Glasgow 😉

ditch_jockey - Member

Religion shouldn't have a place in the world anymore.

Cool - just let me know where to drop the keys for our youth centre then - I'm assuming you're volunteering to fill the void?

Would you still be youth leader if the religious element was removed and the centre was a secular one?
Not being funny,just interested.

The big city's, LA and NY etc are generally just as open and forward thinking as we are,

Ditch jockey, plenty of youth clubs run on zero budget with all contributing members being volunteers Not just your church (brainwashed) ones.

You do know that god doesn't exist don't you?

I liked this story of religious tolerance versus bigotry from Not Always Right the other day:

http://notalwaysright.com/taking-the-big-out-of-bigotry/24364

Just shows that bigotry is often more down to the people than the religion.

Can't be doing with ignorant ranting this time of the morning

Can I suggest a different forum then? 😀

Luckily for you, there's no faith requirement in order to volunteer - however, it's a big project, and it's run entirely on a voluntary basis, so you'll be needing to quit your job and live on a pittance in order to keep it rolling along...

... and move to Glasgow

Cool - just let me know where to drop the keys for our youth centre then - I'm assuming you're volunteering to fill the void?

Of course the issue of land and property is slightly more complex and the government sure as shit aint gonna fund a youth centre for you at the moment but i digress

Interesting to see from this thread and the Jimmy Saville/Catholic one, that the STW tradition of open-discrimination against certain religions is as healthy (sic) as ever. Always ironic to see those who preach (sorry !) tolerance elsewhere, fail to do so where religion is concerned.

I can just imagine if the JS thread was linked to other religions (Judaism, Islam) or races, there would be all sorts of accusations flying about re discrimination. But open season on other religions it seems.

FWIW - this doesn't mean that I support the CoE/Catholic views on homosexuality - I dont. But I can respect their views and understand where they come from even without agreeing with them. Why shouldn't this be norm on STW?

think he said religion had no place, people are still allowed to do nice things and charitable acts without god telling you to do it.

But I do what I do for "religious reasons", so if these have no place in society, then it would require someone with a different motivation to come along and fill the gap. If you convince me that there is no underlying purpose to our existence, then there's very little rationale for me doing anything 'nice' or 'charitable' even if you can disentangle what these might mean in a purely subjective frame of reference.

As for payment in Buckfast - if you can drink it, I'm sure the locals have more than enough to go round 🙂

STW tradition of open-discrimination against certain religions is as healthy (sic) as ever. Always ironic to see those who preach (sorry !) tolerance elsewhere, fail to do so where religion is concerned.

It's not like religion is some sort of hot bed of tolerance itself. The only time they ask for tolerance is when they feel persecuted. it is certianly not something they ask for whn they are doing the persecution- compare fundamentlaist states of any religion with western liberal democracies and you tell me which is the tolerant state?

What you see as intolerance i see as a slow and steady march away from the dark ages and into enlightenment

It is not like we are having a Holy war or holding an Inquisition or threatening to kill you because you dont accept evolution or the a heliocentric solar system. Nor are we saying you will burn in hell for not doing what I say or follwoing my personal beliefs
Religion does not deserve much tolerance as it does not give much tolerance.

I can respect their views and understand where they come from even without agreeing with them. Why shouldn't this be norm on STW?

Which one - that its an abhomination/ the ugandan approach?

"it is not Uganda that is putting a death penalty on homosexuals, it is God

I rather suspect you mean you like the liberal western version of religous "intolerance " where they moan but not openly persecute - ? rather than the literal version given in the Bible. Should we allow them to openly persecurte the abhomination?
HOW TF AM I MEANT TO RESPECT THAT?
Would they repsect me if I say started persecuting religious folk and banned them from hig office for talking it a non existent being ? Would they preach about tolerance then?

I cannot respect their view evemn if you can
Why do I have to respect those who are wrong and preach hate whilst asking me to be tolerant of their hatred?

"It is not Uganda putting a death penalty on homosexuals, it is God and his word!... Now, listen to me - the sodomy people, the homosexuals, are even more foolish than dogs. There's no female dog that mates with a female dog, there's no male dog that lusts after a male dog. Even animals are wiser than homosexuals! - Do you hear me?... We do not condemn homosexuality just because we are Africans. We condemn homosexuality because it is written in this holy book - the Bible tells us, according to Leviticus, chapter 18, verse 22, "You shall not lie with a man as a man lies with a woman. It is an abomination."... I want to invite you to declare 'no to sodomy', every one of you. Uganda says 'no to sodomy! No to sodomy! No to sodomy! No to sodomy!"

[quote=ditch_jockey ]
But I do what I do for "religious reasons", so if these have no place in society, then it would require someone with a different motivation to come along and fill the gap. If you convince me that there is no underlying purpose to our existence, then there's very little rationale for me doing anything 'nice' or 'charitable' even if you can disentangle what these might mean in a purely subjective frame of reference.
Are you suggesting do them because you think you will be rewarded in some way or because you are somehow being told to? Isn't that a bit selfish as opposed to folk doing them just because they think it will help other people?

But I do what I do for "religious reasons",

the STW tradition of open-discrimination against certain religions is as healthy (sic) as ever

If you convince me that there is no underlying purpose to our existence, then there's very little rationale for me doing anything 'nice' or 'charitable'

Blimey, there we have the insight in to a religious persons mindset, makes me shudder than someone can be so callous when there is no perceived reward.

Edit: See Donk below!!

If you convince me that there is no underlying purpose to our existence, then there's very little rationale for me doing anything 'nice' or 'charitable'

Wow that line of argument scares the beejesus out of me! 😯

My mother always told me [i]"It's nice to be nice"[/i] - perhaps that is sufficient rationale for some?

STW tradition of open-discrimination against certain religions is as healthy (sic) as ever. Always ironic to see those who preach (sorry !) tolerance elsewhere, fail to do so where religion is concerned.

If it helps, the Christian, Muslim and Jewish gods are all the same god, so any criticism of one can be considered to apply to all.

If you convince me that there is no underlying purpose to our existence, then there's very little rationale for me doing anything 'nice' or 'charitable'

Our 'purpose' is to pass on our genes to the next generation. Living in a tolerant, caring society enables this.

insight dobbo and I'm pretty sure he was joking, incite is completely different, altho [i]some[/i] religious people have been known to incite all sorts of stuff.

But I do what I do for "religious reasons", so if these have no place in society, then it would require someone with a different motivation to come along and fill the gap. If you convince me that there is no underlying purpose to our existence, then there's very little rationale for me doing anything 'nice' or 'charitable' even if you can disentangle what these might mean in a purely subjective frame of reference.

So you're basically a psychopath?

Or a troll

insight was the one I was after 😆 However....

The big city's, LA and NY etc are generally just as open and forward thinking as we are, if not more so.

And the provinces and smaller cities are just as entrenched in their views as they are in this country?

Here's a fine example...

perpetuation of the urban myth that

After all, this is a nation that renamed the film "The Madness of King George III" to "The Madness of King George", for fear that most Americans would think they had missed the first two prequels.

Its the hypocritical stance that damns religions for me,do as i say not as i do !

Junkyard - Member
Religion does not deserve much tolerance as it does not give much tolerance.

A spectacular misrepresentation of most religions there JY - but understandable at least when one looks at what has been/continues to be done in the name (sic) of religion. And that is the key. But one should not confuse actions that people "try" to justify on religious grounds with the core concepts of most of the world's religions.

...certain important teachings are found in all religions. For example, the injunction to [b]love one's fellow men[/b] echoes throughout all the Holy Writings. The Old Testament enjoins: [b]"thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself"[/b](Lev. 19:18). The Bhagavad-Gita (12:13) instructs: "A man should not hate any living creature. [b]Let him be friendly and compassionate to all.[/b]" These words sound not so different from "[b]love your enemies[/b], bless them that curse you" as uttered by Jesus (Matthew 5:44). Compassion, loving-kindness, sympathetic joy, and equanimity are said by Buddhist scriptures to be divine conditions of the mind. "Do you love your creator? [b]Love your fellow-beings first[/b]," reads a well-known Islamic tradition. And Bahá'u'lláh, the Prophet-Founder of the Bahá'í Faith writes: "[b]ye were created to show love to one [/b]another and not perversity and rancour. Take pride not in love for yourselves but in love for all mankind" (Tablets of Bahá'u'lláh, 136). So prominent is the teaching of universal love among all religions that it could be viewed as a goal common to them all.

Donk - I am sure threads on certain religions/races would get closed down pretty quickly. Perhaps STW towers condones anti CoE/Catholic posts?

A spectacular misrepresentation of most religions there JY - but understandable at least when one looks at what has been/continues to be done in the name (sic) of religion. And that is the key. But one should not confuse actions that people "try" to justify on religious grounds with the core concepts of most of the world's religions.

It is true that Religion is used as an excuse in many of the atrocities commited by humans in thier power struggles. However, it would be disenginuous not to also include the parts of the Bible, Koran or whtever text that do encourage or seek to justify violence/opression*. Most of these books are so full of contradictions you can use them to justify pretty much any activity!

*Including, but not limited to misogynism, xenophobia and homophobia

Junyard:

Religion does not deserve much tolerance as it does not give much tolerance.

I have to disagree. The fundamental principle of Christianity is the tolerance of all others, forgiveness, and promotion of being a generally decent person.

Some churches do suffer from rather non-progressive leadership, but the general ethos of Christianity cannot be a bad thing in itself. I sometimes think that Jesus must have been a pretty interesting and inspiring character, but I shudder to think what he would think of some of the established religions claiming to act in his name. (And for anyone to claim that he didn't exist, is pretty ignorant, imo).

I am a practicing Catholic, and take my 3 children to church, and to a church school. I think encouraging them to live in accordance with (at least 7) of the 10 commandments is a good basis for their life.
And yes, I know you don't need to even practice religion to follow the last 7 commandments, but I like being part of a community that has a focus on trying to be decent people. I do not wear sandals, I do not have a fish on my car, but i do think there may be a God, and he would like us to be nice to each other. However, I do not even believe in trans-substantiation of the bread into the body of christ(which I guess rather makes me a failed Catholic).

Having said all that, I did have to sit through the priest reading a letter from the bishop last month, urging people to sign a petition against gay marriage. As I said, I think the leadership can be woeful, but the general ideology of the religion I find to be sound.

I think a world without religion would be a pretty soulless place to live. I am only guessing though, and obviously anyone choosing to believe differently has an equally valid point, which I am happy to respect.

So - no objective basis for ethical decision making at all then? Just some vague platitudes about [i]"it's nice to be nice"[/i], which sounds very like vestigal social conditioning from historic civil religion, keeping your competitive urges in check 😆

certain important teachings are found in all religions

I don't think many people would disagree with that.

But there are also fairly important teachings to be found in philosophy, in the natural world, in literature, in mythology, in science, and in CBeebies.

A spectacular misrepresentation of most religions there JY

But one should not confuse actions that people "try" to justify on religious grounds with the core concepts of most of the world's religions.

So prominent is the teaching of universal love among all religions that it could be viewed as a goal common to them all.

You could equally have used Lex talionis |* to highlight your point about how they treat those how wrong them - strange that you chose not to 😉

* an eye for an eye a tooth for tooth - nopt for you THM I know you know what it means

The fundamental principle of Christianity is the tolerance of all others, forgiveness, and promotion of being a generally decent person

Remind me what the first 4 of the ten commandments are and which is the greatest? WOrship only me or else basically

It is part of the teaching but you need to ignore all the bits you dont like to say it is the only message- [ no offence] like you do when they tell you what the scriptures says about gays and what you should do.

the churches are big business players, with huge wealth, there is a lot of double standards at play, they are given credence for frankly doing what ??
Supporting the state in time of crisis, giving so called 'moral' guidance and help keep things in order, their part in the 'play'.

I am a practicing Catholic.. follow the last 7 commandments.. think there may be a God.. do not even believe in trans-substantiation

I think you might need to practise some more 😉

So - no objective basis for ethical decision making at all then? Just some vague platitudes about "it's nice to be nice", which sounds very like vestigal social conditioning from historic civil religion, keeping your competitive urges in check

By [i]"objective basis"[/i] you mean [i]"I should do X so that I'll be rewarded with Y and not punished with Z"[/i]?

No. I think it is quite possible for someone to be good and do nice things purely because they like doing nice things.

"Do unto others" is a pretty good principle to live by and doesn't require religious reward or punishment to make it so.

The Old Testament enjoins: "thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself"(Lev. 19:18)

Where neighbour is defined as your own tribe.

There's also some stuff about stoning your daughter to death if she doesn't marry her rapist. And drowning animals.

Surprise surprise, another STW religion debate, always go the same way as the politics ones (Police commisoners aside) the same people taking the same view points, don't get me wrong it's your time and you can do as you please, but where does your motivation come from? (genuine question) you know how it's going to pan out by now surely.

Donk - I am sure threads on certain religions/races would get closed down pretty quickly. Perhaps STW towers condones anti CoE/Catholic posts?

I think you might need to practise so more

I think you might be right; I've been remembering my RE GCSE lessons, and I'm now not even sure about the 4th commandment. The other 6 are all good to go though!

Maybe I should just join a nice book club or coffe group instead! 😀

dont forget the strict rules on shellfish or marrying your brothers wife or abput how long your hair should be [ rules for men and women]

These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat. And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you: They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination. Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.

Leviticus 19:27 reads "You shall not round off the side-growth of your heads nor harm the edges of your beard."

Genesis 38:9-10: "Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so when he went in to his brother's wife, he wasted his seed on the ground in order not to give offspring to his brother. But what he did was displeasing in the sight of the Lord; so He took his life also."

Deuteronomy 23:1 reads (this is the God's Word translation, which spells it out better), "A man whose testicles are crushed or whose penis is cut off may never join the assembly of the Lord."

Oh, and the next verse says that if you're a bastard, the child of a bastard... or even have a great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandchild of a bastard, you can't come to church or synagogue either. Deuteronomy 23:2 reads, "No one of illegitimate birth shall enter the assembly of the Lord; none of his descendants, even to the tenth generation, shall enter the assembly of the Lord."

D0NK - Member
Personally I think you should be able to challenge/call out/berate any religion when they deserve it

I agree but there are ways of doing it which are still respectful to others' views. I am not defending the views of any particular religions just pointing out the lack of consistency that is exhibited and seemingly condoned on STW.

I agree but there are ways of doing it which are still respectful to others' views. I am not defending the views of any particular religions just pointing out the lack of consistency that is exhibited and seemingly condoned on STW.

Examples?

Awwww are the poor little put upon christians being picked on again?

You want to know why Christianity gets the most criticism in the UK? It's because

1. It's far and away the biggest religion.
2. It occupies a hugely priviliged position in our society.

The vast majority of criticism is perfectly valid criticism of either christian beliefs of attacks on the special treatment chritianity gets.

You're not some oppressed minority, and when you try to make it sound like you are, you come across like a white, middle class man complaining about being discriminated against on the grounds of his race, gender and class.

Mike - you are a frequent enough forum visiter. You really need to ask - just compare the pages on these sorts of threads with others. Its pretty obvious. Any way - small point. No need to add to endless religions pages - as stated above, they all go the same way. Perhaps, they should be collected under Swindon threads?

gonefishin - Member
Awwww are the poor little put upon christians being picked on again?

A far better one-line summary of my point that I could have achieved. Thanks!

So, logical fallacies and missing the point. You're not very good at this debating thing are you?

agree but there are ways of doing it which are still respectful to others' views

Cardinal O'Brien described gay marriage as a "grotesque subversion of a universally accepted human right".

compare the pages on these sorts of threads with others. Its pretty obvious

We know what your view is I think he asked you to prove it with actual evidence rather than restate it.

Do you really think the Church is tolerant?

Mike - you are a frequent enough forum visiter. You really need to ask - just compare the pages on these sorts of threads with others.

Any thread that hits multiple pages before I firs read it, I tend to avoid.

I suspect that other threads veer away from criticism of the religion into criticism of the race? Probably because most posters have been born and raised in the christian tradition and so know very little about islam. I know the jewish/christian fairy tales, but have no idea about islamic ones, really. So, I'd take part in a thread criticising the role of the church in this country, but not generally in anything about islam.

Cardinal O'Brien described gay marriage as a "grotesque subversion of a universally accepted human right".

*it may not be called the hotline but pretty sure I read there's a special relationship thing going on.

edit oh yeah [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-19305232 ]direct communication[/url]

Can any of the Xtians on here explain why God doesn't like gayers? I mean is he really that bothered?

All religions served a role in their respective states, that role has been supplanted by other forms of control/ideology , in some more advanced societies religion has withered to become almost inconsequential, in some other parts it plays a huge role in oppression.
Science will eventually nail the beast...

[quote=emsz ]Can any of the Xtians on here explain why God doesn't like gayers? I mean is he really that bothered?
methinks he doth protest too much. 😉

[img] [/img]

special relationship

Yes that one

emsz it's not god *whispers* he doesn't exist. Its the heads of the religions, if you're having gay sex you're not procreating and swelling the flock. Likewise abusing yourself or sex just for fun.

they don't like wasted seed.....

Donk , as you seem like an expert on this, what about a set of breeders doing it up the wrong us....is this ok?

teamhurtmore....
"there are ways of doing it which are still respectful to others' views"

Spoinnnngggggggggg!

You might not realise this. But when you demand "respect" for your religious views, people (maybe just me 🙂 see it as shorthand for this;

"I have no rational basis or evidence for my views. However, I demand that for the purposes of this discussion you ignore that and confine yourself to polite disagreement.
This works better, as avoiding any requirment for of "facts" and "evidence" makes it appear that all of our opinions are equally valid and we can all sit around and nod knowingly at eachother.

This will allow my beliefs to survive until, hopefully in time, there may be a religious revival, that will lead to your minority views becoming legally flammible once more, and we can dispense with all the respectful discussion and get back to the good old days."

(PS I'm not suggesting that _you_ would really burn people to death. Just that people who share your particular beliefs have in the past.)

I have views (on morality and humanity and equality) which I hold dearly, but I will never feel the need to demand the kind of "respect" that hides them from discussion and exposure.

I don't need to.

"We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart.
H. L. Mencken"

Can any of the Xtians on here explain why God doesn't like gayers? I mean is he really that bothered?

God created man in his own image, so I'm guessing he is the last of the great deniers.

Yeah, but in the bible, dies he actually say why? Apart from you know, stealing your make up, having better eyebrows and shit taste in music?

Thats what gets me about the catholic churchs stance on condoms.
Millions will die from aids, but not using them is more important 😯

repressed? 😀

I can just imagine if the JS thread was linked to other religions (Judaism, Islam) or races, there would be all sorts of accusations flying about re discrimination. But open season on other religions it seems.

I will happily denigrate Islam and the way it is taught in this country if you want.
Unlike the majority of middle class Guardian reading hand wringers that frequent this forum, I've been to mosque many times so my dislike is borne from reality and fact, not Daily Wail hysteria (I have never seen a muslamic ray gun).

[i]I think a world without religion would be a pretty soulless place to live.[/i]

That's quite a clever little joke that. Well done 🙂

repressed?

So far into the closet, he's in Narnia.

(No idea where I stole that from)

Emsz,
I can remember having a special religion lesson in 6th Form (the Opus Dei Headmaster came in especially to deliver the lesson).

He allowed everyone to ask a question via a ballot slip, and he answered them all quite candidly in random order. He basically confirmed Donk's sentiment above, in that God doesn't like gayers because there was no chance for procreation.

He did say that BJs and bum fun with consenting members of the opposite sex was a bit strange, but okay, so long as the seed was finally spilled in the right place.

Don't know how i survived my schooling. Luckily, all but one of the class agreed that the man was a fundamentalist loon.

I personally think God is not a homosceptic and would not have a problem with lady gayers or bumders. They are after all generally nice people, quite creative and all very well dressed (Elton John aside).

(No idea where I stole that from)

Its what Lewis Carroll wanted to say.

I thought scientology was the religion for people in the closet?

I personally think God is not a homosceptic and would not have a problem with lady gayers or bumders. They are after all generally nice people, quite creative and all very well dressed (Elton John aside).

Coffee-out-of-nose-time.

Not been called a bumder before. I think I'll have to appropriate that. 😀

Bumder!... Not mine I'm afraid.
Taken from the Inbetweeners.

Homosceptic = Alan Partridge, too.

Nothing original from me I'm afraid!

Hi Adam *waves excitedly*

My friend graham isn't ( well dressed) he's got military cap( backwards) covering up really bad self harm undercut, blue checked scarf, glittery shirt, leggings, mismatched leg warmers. Looks like he was mugged by a wardrobe.

He says he doesnt like god either, so he's fine.

I quite like lady gayer 😆

[quote=emsz ]
I quite like lady gayer[b]s[/b]

Yeah. We got that bit 🙂