[Closed] The awful, shocking, terrible, horrible realisation...

A lot of the bullying attempted on me from 10 onwards was outwardly racially motivated, even when I moved to secondary school which was in a more affluent area... Fortunately for me and unfortunately for bullies, I had a short fuse and didn't mind confrontation... Not proud if my responses, but I did keep myself safe and sound.

Kids always fight in schools. If it's not race it's something else, isnt' it? So is it really an immigration or race issue?
Are there any studies into incidence of violence in schools compared to ethnic diversity, adjusted for socio-economic factors? If not, there should be.

Sometimes it might be a race or assimilation issue, other times it is just about difference...

Interestingly though, most people at first introduction think I am white, many think I am of Mediterranean extraction...

CountZero - Member
And I've realised my understanding of 'shibboleth' is wrong, I always thought it meant;

Your understanding of the word was so well established that you felt the need to google its meaning! 🙄

Much like everything else you post, like your last entry which scoffed at others' lack of understanding of a situation which you no doubt also googled.

Have you ever seen that episode of The Office where David Brent keeps nipping off to google Dostoevsky quotes? That's EXACTLY how you come across.

I can't quite believe that wrecker knew nothing about Idi Amin and the expulsion of the Ugandan Asian population! That's very recent British history, I've even seen it mentioned on TV within the last couple of months or so.
Is our education system that fubared, or is talking about such aspects of our history frowned on for getting too close to the 'immigration' question?

There is an quite a lot of history about you know. What would you suggest dropping to include the module on post-colonial politics? Would this be at key stage two or three?

Let no-one tell you that all groups cannot be prejudiced

If you think this is true then you need to remove your head from up your arse.

Ignorance is indeed alive and well.

That's EXACTLY how you come across.

"Shibboleth - Member
It'll be an absolute disgrace if it is closed MT... Nobody has expressed a remotely racist - or even bigoted - view so far."

You are allowed to express that view but not everyone will agree.

I can't quite believe that wrecker knew nothing about Idi Amin and the expulsion of the Ugandan Asian population! That's very recent British history, I've even seen it mentioned on TV within the last couple of months or so.

Is our education system that fubared, or is talking about such aspects of our history frowned on

FFS molgrips - racism has nothing to do with race?

What I'm saying is that race is sometimes just an excuse for finding differences over which to fight, especially with kids. If it's not race it's something else.

Racism is about pre-judging people based on race. Subtle difference imo.

Given that we (apparently) live in a country riddled with "institutionalised racism" that affects major parts of our wider, establishment, can anyone suggest countries where this is absent, so that we can use them as a case study to look up to? I can't think of one off the top of my head!

Isn't the sad fact that people, simply discriminate against those who are different. Difference can be race, sex, nationality, hair colour, religion, sporting ability, looks, accent, wearing glasses, riding 29ers etc...(in other words, mol has a point). IMO, society in the UK is no different in this respect other that I believe we are more open at standing up to hostility and discrimination with legal sanctions for those that don't get it. We should be pretty thankful for that.

(Ernie, surely that T shirt is the alternative use of the swatsika found in Indian culture today?)

I didn't know much about the Uganda thing from school either - we were busy learning that everything is the fault of the English. 😆

Seriously though, I didn't until I met one of the displaced in my first job here. His story was horrible. Had I not met him, it may well have been until the film [i]The Last King Of Scotland [/i] that I'd have known. By all means, use it to have a go at someone, but it's weak to do so.

Isn't the sad fact that people, simply discriminate against those who are different. Difference can be race, sex, nationality, hair colour, religion, sporting ability, looks, accent, wearing glasses, riding 29ers etc

A few of those are relatively trivial (in terms of this discussion). A few are quite serious.

mt - Member
You are allowed to express that view but not everyone will agree.

I stand by my view MT. If you try to understand that an opinion diametrically opposed to your own does NOT equal bigotry, you might be inclined to agree.

I find that on the whole, people's misunderstanding of what constitutes racism and bigotry - and their eagerness to accuse others of those things - causes as many problems as actual racism and bigotry.

deadlydarcy - Member

Seriously though, I didn't until I met one of the displaced in my first job here. His story was horrible. Had I not met him, it may well have been until the film The Last King Of Scotland that I'd have known. By all means, use it to have a go at someone, but it's weak to do so.

Very well put Darcy...

Isn't the sad fact that people, simply discriminate against those who are different.

It is possibly correct that those who discriminate may just pick something different but who knows- perhaps the EDL would go back to hating folk based on the football team they support or perhaps that would just be the founder reverting back to type?

As for us being brilliant I would be careful about that on the day when the EU charges us with discriminating against EU members over benefits Do you think tolerant UK will back down to this?
Also worth noting the rise of the right wing UKIP who are pretty much the embodiment of xenophobia

yes we think we are tolerant and we are brilliant but I am less sure it is true ...probably better to ask an immigrant or someone gay for example than hear the opinion of some white middle class types with polite tolerant views.. I assume neither of us hang out with bigots or racists.
We still dont have an openly gay football player for some reason.

I find that on the whole, people's misunderstanding of what constitutes racism and bigotry - and their eagerness to accuse others of those things - causes as many problems as actual racism and bigotry.

Yeah right, falsely accusing someone of racism or bigotry as much of a problem as being the victim of racism or bigotry

*rolls eyes*

I find that on the whole, people's misunderstanding of what constitutes racism and bigotry - and their eagerness to accuse others of those things - causes as many problems as actual racism and bigotry.

TBH I find the problem is people making up totally false stories, that portray the Asian community in a negative light, with no basis in reality. The sense of righteous indignation they have when they get uppity about perfectly accurate labels is rather amusing.

Yeah right, falsely accusing someone of racism or bigotry as much of a problem as being the victim of racism or bigotry

Ernie, a gang of predatory Asian paedophiles had been targeting young white girls in Blackpool for years. Whenever the Police became involved, these people played the race card and accused them of discriminating against them on the basis that they were institutionally racist.

2 girls disappeared - presumed murdered - and yet a report written in 2003 was kept under wraps for fear that its authors would be branded racist. It's only in light of similar problems in other towns that it has become clear that this sort of thing is endemic, and the report has surfaced.

I'm afraid the only link I can find is on the [url= http://www.****/news/article-1374443/Police-hid-abuse-60-girls-Asian-takeaway-workers-linked-Charlene-Downes-murder.html ]Daily Mail Website[/url] - I'm sure many will decide that this alone renders it inadmissible to this discussion - but the local press websites aren't much use.

So yes, accusations of racism by these people meant they were pretty much free to carry on their abuse unchecked, resulting in the murder of at least one other girl.

You still wanna roll your eyes at me? 🙄

Whenever the Police became involved, these people played the race card and accused them of discriminating against them on the basis that they were institutionally racist.

If you've got issues with how the police in Blackpool conducted their investigations then that is a completely separate matter.

And whether you agree or not, it is a fact established by a public inquiry, and accepted by both the government [i]and[/i] the police, that institutional racism has seriously affected the police in the UK.

2 girls disappeared - presumed murdered - and yet a report written in 2003 was kept under wraps for fear that its authors would be branded racist.

Well that's absolutely pathetic/shameful - but I fail to see how that's the fault of anyone but the police. It's no-one else's fault that they were too spineless to do their jobs properly.

If they had good evidence of what these people were doing, saying 'yeah but the police force is racist' wouldn't make for a very convincing defence.

probably better to ask an immigrant

The numbers of immigrants would hint at an answer. Anecdotally, the UK seems to have a good rep overseas.

Your evidence undermines the majority of your claims

Children as young as 11 were targeted by [b]mainly [/b]Asian staff

There were claims last night that the report was suppressed for reasons of political correctness.

ndeed, a former senior detective at Lancashire Police yesterday blamed political correctness for its failure to highlight its 2003 findings in Blackpool.
But the force denied this, saying the report had been available online since 2007 but had never been intended for publication.

Senior officers insisted an intensive programme to break the cycle of exploitation had been a success and that in the last six months 50 of 54 grooming suspects were white.

If you've got issues with how the police in Blackpool conducted their investigations then that is a completely separate matter.

No it isn't! It's EXACTLY the matter I was referring to! You can say the Police were at fault, but certainly since the Macpherson report which Grum mentions, Police are terrified of being branded racist. That isn't the fault of the Police, and it's unfair to brand them "spineless" - the Police Service isn't there for the purposes of 'derring do'!

Society is at fault, for perpetuating an atmosphere where it is deemed racist to acknowledge that birds of a feather often flock together, and that racial trends, whether criminal or cultural, are an intrinsic part of this multi-cultural society that we've created and it would be folly to ignore them, even worse to deny them.

Junkyard, we can all play your silly game of denial, here, watch this:

Children as young as 11 were targeted by [b]mainly[/b] Asian staff

Yes, I would suggest that the distinction lies between immigrants and 2nd generation Britons of Asian descent.

I am sure there were claims but that does not mean it is true-

Claims from within the force. Denied by senior officers who are trying to avert a PR disaster.

So that is suppressed then

See previous answer. 🙄

Did you notice that 50 out of 54 were white

Yep, I make that 8% that weren't white. A figure that I'm quite convinced is skewed due to the Police/CPS reluctance to pursue cases against Asian gangs for fear of being branded racist.

Easy, isn't it. 🙄

and that racial trends

Oh holy Jesus, Mary and Joseph. 😯 My handwringometer just had smoke coming out the back of it.

My handwringometer just had smoke coming out the back of it.

Why? Is it wrong to acknowledge that Asian communities have a tendency towards following Islam? Is it wrong to acknowledge that they prefer cricket to darts?

Looks like its time for Oolong to make an appearence

[img] [/img]

Group hug everyone?

You can say the Police were at fault, but certainly since the Macpherson report which Grum mentions, Police are terrified of being branded racist. That isn't the fault of the Police

You make it sound as if the Macpherson report was wrong and that institutional racism in the police has never existed, it has, and that is the fault of the police.

Getting back to your point, whilst falsely accusing someone of racism or bigotry is clearly unacceptable, it is not a problem comparable with actual racism or bigotry and the hate crimes associated with these attitudes, and for you to claim that it is, as you have, is utterly absurd.

Why? Is it wrong to acknowledge that Asian communities have a tendency towards following Islam? Is it wrong to acknowledge that they prefer cricket to darts?

"Why" my big fat hairy arse. It's like that phrase was thrown in to send the handwringometers off the dials. Not that [i]you'd[/i] ever do something like that shibboleth.

Getting back to your point, whilst falsely accusing someone of racism or bigotry is clearly unacceptable, it is not a problem comparable with actual racism or bigotry and the hate crimes associated with these attitudes, and for you to claim that it does, as you have, is utterly absurd.

I suppose it depends on your own values and perception of "what is a fricking problem", Ernest.

Personally, I'd say 2 murders and hundreds of young girls brutalised, abused, assaulted and sold on for sex is pretty problematic.

In fact, I'm struggling to think of anything on the other side of the coin that happens on a regular basis in this country that could be considered worse.

So no, it's not utterly absurd at all - your stance looks far more absurd to me.

Let no-one tell you that all groups cannot be prejudiced

No one has said this - it is not a revelation to anyone that anyone can be racist and it is not dependent on skin colour religion or race

JY, Molgrips had said how he couldn't imagine a prejudiced attitude at a school with a majority of pupils from a non-white European cultural background. I challenged that point...

"Why" my big fat hairy arse.

Don't you dare point that big fat hairy arse at me Darcy! 😉

Personally, I'd say 2 murders and hundreds of young girls brutalised, abused, assaulted and sold on for sex is pretty problematic.

You are getting back to your point that the police, according to you, in one particular case didn't do their job properly. That doesn't prove that false allegations of racism are as much of a problem as actual racism, as you absurdly claim. It just proves that the police, allegedly, sometimes don't do their job properly.

You are getting back to your point that the police, according to you, in one particular case didn't do their job properly. That doesn't prove that false allegations of racism are as much of a problem as actual racism, as you absurdly claim. It just proves that the police, allegedly, sometimes don't do their job properly.

Not the sharpest tooth on the sprocket, are you Ern. The Police DID do their job properly, they even compiled a huge, damning report about the abuse. But, for fear of being branded racist, it seems that this report didn't see the light of day.

One has to point the finger of blame at the left-wing do-gooders that have created an atmosphere where the writers of this report were fearful of making it public! (That would be people like you...)

Not the sharpest tooth on the sprocket, are you Ern.

Not at all, very average in fact. But I'm not stupid enough to think that the problem of false allegations of racism and bigotry is as serious as racism and bigotry itself.

One has to point the finger of blame at the left-wing do-gooders that have created an atmosphere where the writers of this report were fearful of making it public!

or you could blame the weak and spineless coppers, who when holding a document full of evidence, valued swerving some flack over helping young girls escape abuse..

nice morality you have there shibhead.. 😀

Has anyone blamed Thatcher yet?

Not at all, very average in fact. But I'm not stupid enough to think that the problem of false allegations of racism and bigotry is as serious as racism and bigotry itself.

I'm finding it very difficult to give your self-proclaimed average intellect the benefit of the doubt. If fear of accusations of racism undermines the criminal justice system allowing certain sectors of society to commit the most appalling crimes unchecked, then it's a MASSIVE problem.

Can you show me examples of actual racism that are worse? Thankfully, racist murders are actually so rare that the names of victims are often household names, like Stephen Lawrence for example.

Unlike the names of Charlene Downes and Paige Chivers.

I'm willing to do it if no-one else will binners

It's all Thatchers fault.

Ernie, a gang of predatory Asian paedophiles had been targeting young white girls in Blackpool for years. Whenever the Police became involved, these people played the race card and accused them of discriminating against them on the basis that they were institutionally racist.

Police forces lacking in courage in addressing investigations is a separate issue. My old man was still in the police when the "institutionally racist" thing became a widespread tag for the police. His orders to the division he commanded was to not be scared of being called racist unless they were actually picking on people for the colour of their skin. The orders from headquarters were a little less clear.

I also went to a 99% white school. There was a chinese family, a sri lankan family and an african family in the town and all had two kids who went to our school. Frankly, there was surprisingly (for a 70s and 80s northern city) little racism looking back; I just don't think it entered into anyone's minds to treat any of them any other way. It's a town next to a major port city so foreigners are commonplace.

Not at all, very average in fact. But I'm not stupid enough to think that the problem of false allegations of racism and bigotry is as serious as racism and bigotry itself.

POSTED 1 MINUTE AGO # REPORT-POST

The numbers of immigrants would hint at an answer. Anecdotally, the UK seems to have a good rep overseas.

Anecdotally, one of the main stated appeals drawing immigrants to the UK is language. Just from folk I've worked, in no way a large scale in depth study.

Unless it totally blights your career, life, prospects etc. ........rolls eyes for a bit !

Oh I see, he didn't mean a problem for society as a whole, but in certain individual cases.

He should of made that clear, given the ample opportunities he had.

*rolls eyes*

Easy, isn't it

Anecdotally, one of the main stated appeals drawing immigrants to the UK is language

And pies 🙂

Thankfully, racist murders are actually so rare that the names of victims are often household names, like Stephen Lawrence for example.

Some people try [i]really[/i] hard to find reasons to hate people don't they? Selective interpretation of news and reports. Selective blindness to the problems of their "own" kind. And also blindness to how obvious their own prejudices are.

It's also such a shame when people (white/black/brown/green) need to define themselves by differences from others. They must feel really insecure about who [i]they[/i] actually are.

Oh I see, he didn't mean a problem for society as a whole, but in certain individual cases.

He should of made that clear, given the ample opportunities he had.

I didn't make the distinction Ern. There isn't one. I think you're foundering a little there, have you reached the limit of your intellect? If you want a distinction, racism on a "society level" only affects a small minority of the population, thereby one could argue that it's not as big a problem as the Guardianistas like to suggest.

If you weren't so hamstrung by cerebral mediocrity, perhaps you'd be able to point me in the direct of examples that regularly occur in the UK where racism or bigotry causes equally horrendous problems...

I think you're foundering a little there, have you reached the limit of your intellect?

If you weren't so hamstrung by cerebral mediocrity.......

Are you still banging on about your huge intellect over mine ?!.....that's hilarious 😀

But yeah, you must be right.....'cause you're so clever !

binners
Raise you
[img] [/img]

But yeah, you must be right.....'cause you're so clever !

I'm waiting for you to prove me wrong Ernest. That's how these things work: I make a point, you, having a differing opinion, try to debunk my assertions and offer evidence to prove YOUR point.

You managed the first bit, but you really seem to be struggling with the second. Come on, speak up old chap...

nick - I'm seriously impressed!

Judging by that dogs stance, he's multi-tasking. 😆

I'm not interested in proving you wrong to your satisfaction Shibboleth.

False allegations of racism and bigotry are a serious issue, but to pretend that it's as serious as actual racism and bigotry, is, quite frankly, absurd.

And it would be laughable if it wasn't such an insult to the victims of hate crimes and those who live in fear of them.

That's about it mate, I don't want, or need, to elaborate. You are obviously not going to agree with me - apparently it's because I'm of average intelligence and you're so much cleverer than me, OK, let's leave at that shall we ?

I knew you were foundering... 🙄

What are pancakes without
[img] [/img]

Poor dog....

Your understanding of the word was so well established that you felt the need to google its meaning!

Well I hadn't got a clue what shibboleth meant till you quoted the dictionary, Countzero, and I'll be making no effort to add it to my active vocabulary. I generally take things at face value on forums, if it seems sarcastic, I assume it's sarcasm; if it seems nasty, I assume it's nasty; if someone seems to be trying to be clever I assume they're not.

<mod>

Just a gentle nudge to keep this civil, guys. Not singling anyone out but it's been somewhat ad hominem for a couple of pages now; if you can't debate a subject without calling each other idiots I'll just close it.

</mod>

[img] https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSSqhLngk5_h_GAA2aVihjF2UTCkZO-m84Blz6ZxET6m_r8ZiCf [/img]

Even if they are right?

Well, if I were pulling up people for actually being idiots, the forum would be empty. (-:

Good point Cougar ..... there's nothing wrong with being an idiot.

Thanks for your support 🙂

[i]False allegations of racism and bigotry are a serious issue, but to pretend that it's as serious as actual racism and bigotry, is, quite frankly, absurd[/i]

(My God, is this still going!)

Yes, yes Ernie, you said that at the outset and shib has tried (in vain) to explain why its not 'frankly, absurd'

Sadly, you over estimated your intelligence level at mediocre!

That dog is ubber cute, the back leg at a jaunty angle helps.

I like the way it's managing to make part of a femur and the clavicle of a small mammal hover round the top of the maple syrup bottle. A genuiney bone-a-fidey talent.

Rockape63 - Member

(My God, is this still going!)

Well it hadn't for 15 hours, until you decided to revive it ....... just to complain that it was still going on !

And then to cap it all, you accuse me of being thick.......brilliant ! 😀

Have you got clever in those 15 hours then? 8)