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TBH Rydster, if you find yourself using words like “suspicious” and “nebulous” to describe concepts such as Equality, Freedom and Liberty. I don’t think there’s much anyone on the thread can do any more, to explain it to you.
Luckily my 14 and 12 year old daughters are capable of explaining it and feeling outraged by what they see. Listening to kids does give you some cause for hope in the future.
Rydster, your analysis of Windrush sounds like it was written by Trump. Have a word with yourself.
Are you guys happy to keep 'debating' the issues with Rydster or are you feeling like me that his standpoint is so objectionable that he needs some time out? I'm finding him offensive and he's making me pretty angry.
I thought he was just being troll, but actually he is unpleasant
"objectionable"? If this was a conversation in a pub, someone would have had, err, "words" with him by now.
Trolling us great, but not when the thread is about racism.
'The resulting rally caused the deaths(sic) of a counter-protester'. Who's ever heard of a rally killing a protester? Will it be arrested?
You've got to love the beeb.
There's no debate, dude's on a wind-up.
I just wish he’d answer my questions on why revolutions are adolescent and irresponsible and how a westerner can’t understand them. Even though there have been countless revolutions in Europe over the years. You know, Europe, that well known Middle Eastern place.
I think he’s just a really shit troll who has to have an answer for everything. A bit like an irresponsible adolescent.
An example here of US lack of tolerance. Even if he didn't agree with the posters, or was enforcing some 'no poster' rules, WTF? The tweets suggest he's been identified via Strava by cyclists.
https://twitter.com/BBCJonSopel/status/1268805305061855232
Thanks Mark, trolling normally...Who cares, but this feels wrong right now. I'm happy to leave it to you how you think to best deal with it from STW's perspective.
I just wish he’d answer my questions on why revolutions are adolescent and irresponsible and how a westerner can’t understand them.
Have you ever experienced a revolution? They don't always go to better places and often result in significant loss of life and property, especially when those demanding revolution don't have any plan for what they want beyond vague goals such as 'justice' or 'equality'.
If you have never experienced a total breakdown in law and order you don't have any business promoting it from your sofa. The law is a precious thing, without it, there is a Hobbesian world which is an ugly place.
For the record, I've think the death of George Floyd looks like murder and the officers should be prosecuted, and I've already acknowledged that the US has a problem with police violence and racism.
Are you guys happy to keep ‘debating’ the issues with Rydster or are you feeling like me that his standpoint is so objectionable that he needs some time out? I’m finding him offensive and he’s making me pretty angry.
I tried to engage early on, then I dis-engaged when I realised he is either unwilling or incapable of understanding, and faced with either possibility it seemed my time was better spent elsewhere.
Some of those videos and pictures are horrific. The man in the wheelchair... ****.
I’m not promoting anything. I’m simply stating that revolutions happen for a reason. To write them off as adolescent is quite frankly pathetic. I’ve also not claimed that every one has been good. Of course there is loss of life and property. Do you think that all revolutions throughout history have been wrong, that none have resulted in positive changes? If so then you’re a ****ing idiot.
Ok, I will bite... The Arab Spring, where a lot of people that had been, in some cases brutally, oppressed, or had seen billions of dollars of wealth siphoned overseas while they starved.
They rose up and tried to replace their government. I will admit that these did not turn out as well as maybe they hoped, but should the people have just stepped back, accepted torture, imprisonment, starvation and oppression, or should they have done something about it? Politics hadn't worked in a lot of these cases, with opposition parties having accidents or being banned, so what should the average person, the oppressed millions done?
The law is a precious thing, without it, there is a Hobbesian world which is an ugly place.
The assumption there is that "law" is automatically a good thing. We had laws saying slavery was permitted and those trying to free slaves should be punished. Do you feel that was a precious thing.
Revolutions happen when people feel the state structures which often include the legal system (although not always depending on how effective a state it is) is failing them.
So if people are heading towards revolution its time to review how the state and legal system is or isnt functioning.
I have read a few bits about whats going on (pro-protest and all life matters view points) and watched some of the twitter etc videos being posted here and other places. Also read some of the reasonings/explanations for why BLM and the protests are the problem, not whats being protested about.
I can now honestly say that I am pretty ashamed of our species, that I am part of it and that I share a large proportion of the same make up as some of these people. How can so many people be so blind?
Jamze,
At first, I honestly thought You were posting a clip in which rydster's identity had been rumbled.
I’m not saying any different and I wasn’t referencing the UK. The US may be heading for some form of revolution though. I hope it isn’t, but with a narcissist man child in charge who insists on state sanctioned violence, it may go that way.
Are you guys happy to keep ‘debating’ the issues with Rydster or are you feeling like me that his standpoint is so objectionable that he needs some time out? I’m finding him offensive and he’s making me pretty angry.
His standpoint is very objectionable but much of this debate is about rights. He has the right to have objectionable views. I don't like them but I do like the fact that we live in a world that lets him share those views. I don't think he should get time out, yet.
Jamie,
At first, I honestly thought You were posting a clip in which rydster’s identity had been rumbled.
Not engaging with all that...🙄
The 13th is on Netflix if anyone is interested
The land of the free doesn’t come out of it well
Overview here https://www.theguardian.com/film/2016/oct/09/13th-review-bracing-fiercely-intelligent-prison-documentary-ava-duvernay
Theres no understanding of US politics without race at the centre of it
It also explains how someone can be so indoctrinated to no see what’s wrong. Pretty messed up long term manipulation for political gain.
rydster earlier today trying to reconcile his opinions on liberal multiculturalism and reality
His standpoint is very objectionable but much of this debate is about rights. He has the right to have objectionable views. I don’t like them but I do like the fact that we live in a world that lets him share those views.
True, that.
I missed this yesterday - letter to Trump asking the feds be removed, as all protests the night before were peaceful with zero arrests, and the mayor has concerns that they include unbadged, anonymous troops. Chapeau.
Edit: from the mayor of DC
https://twitter.com/MayorBowser/status/1268895206713307138?s=19
The 13th is on Netflix if anyone is interested
It's fascinating and disturbing. In it they suggest that while the US has 5% of the world's population they have 25% od the world's prisoners.
@pondo, I read that letter on Twitter, noted the fact that it's illegal to have law enforcement on the streets of Washington DC without insignia. I wonder who, in the Trump administration asked/told them to remove it and why?
I read that letter on Twitter, noted the fact that it’s illegal to have law enforcement on the streets of Washington DC without insignia. I wonder who, in the Trump administration asked/told them to remove it and why?
There has been a lot of chatter about this on twitter suggesting that they are militia. Most of the time though they appear to be prison guards. They wear all black without insignia or just very small badges. Which, in itself, it odd as the do like a velcro badge in the US.
Noticed this on that DC Mayor's tweet. Trump announced earlier he's had to cancel his golfing weekend.
https://twitter.com/AdamParkhomenko/status/1268722555084591105?s=20
Honestly, I'm going to have a weekend off Twitter - constant anger can't be doing me any good. 🙁
https://twitter.com/DavidHarewood/status/1268835173342294016?s=19
Spot the Ebiker!
Only kidding, ebike friends. 🙂
Kind of incidently, just been reading about police pay in the States - some of them are coining it! Police in NY are on 85k after 5 years, and can retire after 22 years on half salary. Some of them get 150k+ with long service and overtime and stuff - a common practice is to save leave in the last year (or years - must be), then cash it in for a massive final salary - 450k in their last year, anyone? 🙂
Rydster, you are assuming that everyone has the same opportunity and experiences as you do. We don't live in a meritocracy where every one has an equal advantage. You fear a Hobbesian world, fueled by selfishness resulting in lawlessness, however that assumes that the current state of affairs is relatively balanced. It's not, it's tipped in favour of the powerful and wealthy by using systematic oppression. The majority live in relative or absolute poverty, with PoC disproportionately at the bottom. I would argue that we already live in that Hobbesian state of nature that you fear, where people would sell their granny to keep up with the Jones's. We are a devided nation in a world that is poised for WW3 in the middle of a pandemic. As a nation we are xenophobic and hostile to people we perceive as foreigners or poor, whilst giving them a round of applause at 8pm on a Thursday. We have done similar before in times of crisis and war.
Whilst we have made limited progress towards a more equal and stable society, the dominant are reluctant to relenqish power. You can see it in our politics and the workplace, where minorities and the poor have to be twice as good and work twice as hard to gain recognition. Nobody is saying that white men don't have a hard time, but they don't have a hard time because they are black.
You want a manifesto from BLM, detailing what their demands are. BLM are an unorganised collective, who work together in support of each other's causes. These individual causes range in everything from access, unlawful shooting, education, health, and that list is not exhaustive. It is a good example of social anarchy (anarchy doesn't equate to violence) where different groups work together, as has happened in the Uk under lockdown. If you are looking for a soundbite like "Make 'Murica Great (again?)" my personal suggestion would be R.E.S.P.E.C.T
Kind of incidently, just been reading about police pay in the States
Bear in mind, US pay structure isn't the same as ours. Most don't get things like paid holidays (I didn't think anyone did, that last comment surprises me) or things like sick pay, and a couple of weeks in hospital with CV19 will cost you a year's salary.
We're seeing a lot of shocking footage coming out of the US currently, but how representative are they of the force(s) as a whole? Many surely are good people trying to make a difference whilst running the risk daily of being shot dead after stopping someone for a speeding offence. I'd want a lot more than $85k US to be a police officer over there.
whilst running the risk daily of being shot dead after stopping someone for a speeding offence. I’d want a lot more than $85k US to be a police officer over there.
I was surprised to read the other day that being a cop in the USA isn't even in the top 10 most dangerous jobs, and not only that, it's trending down every year (bar a few years of anomalies) every year since the 1980s.
Here's a list of the top 25 most dangerous jobs
- Logging workers
- Fishers and related fishing workers
- Aircraft pilots and flight engineers
- Roofers
- Refuse and recyclable material collectors
- Driver/sales workers and truck drivers
- Farmers, ranchers and other agricultural managers
- Structural iron and steel workers
- First-line supervisors of construction trades and extraction workers
- First-line supervisors of landscaping, lawn service and groundskeeping workers
- Electrical power-line installers and repairers
- Grounds maintenance workers
- Miscellaneous agricultural workers
- Helpers, construction trades
- First-line supervisors of mechanics, installers and repairers
- Police and sheriff’s patrol officers
- Construction laborers
- Maintenance and repair workers, general
- Mining machine operators
- Operation engineers and other construction equipment operators
- Bus and truck mechanics and diesel engine specialists
- Electricians
- Heating, air conditioning, and refrigeration mechanics and installers
- Athletes, coaches, umpires and related workers
- Industrial truck and tractor operators
Came from here Atlana Journal I've no idea whether their data is any better or worse than any other I've seen, but they all seem to be braodly in agreement. You'll note how far down Cops come....
rydster earlier today trying to reconcile his opinions on liberal multiculturalism and reality
I always found David Starkey to be a very good historian with strong critical views. Always make sense in his interpretation of history. Other historians are fine but not as interesting as David Starkey. I think he is the best of the lot of historians when it comes to Tudor history. He tells it as it is very insightful and very interesting.
I’m not promoting anything. I’m simply stating that revolutions happen for a reason. To write them off as adolescent is quite frankly pathetic. I’ve also not claimed that every one has been good. Of course there is loss of life and property. Do you think that all revolutions throughout history have been wrong, that none have resulted in positive changes? If so then you’re a **** idiot.
Cultural revolution in China any good? Now they want to curtail the rights of people of HK.
Cultural Revolution - The Guardian
Cultura Revolution - The Independent
Police in NY are on 85k after 5 years,
Bear in mind that 85k does not go very far in NYC and it won't be the same across the country.
It’s going to be very, very interesting to see what Angry Tinkerbell says on Twitter about this. He’s not going to be able to ignore it, and I sincerely hope that his apoplectic rage causes him to have an aneurism. Personally, I think it’s a fantastic response, and huge kudos to the Mayor of Washington.
https://mashable.com/article/washington-dc-black-lives-matter-street-painting-mayor-muriel-bowser/?europe=true
I always found David Starkey to be a very good historian with strong critical views
TBH chewkw, and I don't mean this in a pejorative way, unless you actually hold a doctorate in Constitutional History and you can make value judgements based on a critical analysis of David's work, including all his written works, his lectures, his research and opinions. You views on whether he's a good historian or not are about as valid as the fart I just let out are.
Cultural revolution in China any good? Now they want to curtail the rights of people of HK.
Jesus Christ! Once more, this time I will type slowly, see if that works. Not all revolutions are good, some are bad. Revolutions are some time’s the only viable way forward when all other attempts at diplomacy or peace fail. They are bloody, horrific things most of the time, but can lead to positive change in the long run. There, is that better?
David Starkey made me laugh when he criticised the youth of today for affecting their speech with Ebonics. Failing to realise that the strength of the English language has been it's adaptability and mutability. English has become the lingua franca of the world precisely because of its ability to adapt to the times and accomodate existing (foreign) words into its lexicon.
It was also very much the a case of the pot calling the kettle.... For David Starkey has perhaps the most affected voice in the Country, he sounds posher than the Queen, and that's simply not possible. The Queen is the poshest person in the world, it's her only job.
It’s going to be very, very interesting to see what Angry Tinkerbell says on Twitter about this. He’s not going to be able to ignore it, and I sincerely hope that his apoplectic rage causes him to have an aneurism. Personally, I think it’s a fantastic response, and huge kudos to the Mayor of Washington.
On the surface it might look like a good idea but it will not work.
Where I come from we are discriminated no ifs or buts. The authority does not even bother to hide it or to pretend to hide it put this way. For example, all civil servant jobs are totally reserved for certain race and religion. If you don't belong to the listed race or religion your only hope is to find way to survive on your own or join the private sector. Even higher education is reserved for certain race and/or religion, with very limited quota for others. Even the quota is not met in full. We also experience race riots 1969 where many died but nothing change much until today. In my experience things are getting slightly better, slightly ... I still got shouted with sarcastic remarks the last time I renewed my driving license at the council. Note that my description above is from far east.
That’s not in living memory for almost anyone alive today. How that justifies looting consumer goods from stores is a mystery.
That’s the point, it damn well should be, but it’s been buried, and nobody at all is justifying the looting, which always happens in these situations, it’s carried out by opportunists just taking advantage of the distractions, but then you know that, don’t you.
There are numerous references to ‘rubber bullets’ being used, and there needs to be some clarity as to what these things actually are. They’re more correctly known as kinetic weapons, or ‘less lethal’ weapons, the US police like to use the term ‘non-lethal’ but that is totally incorrect. They should never be used indiscriminately against demonstrators because they’re impossible to aim, and the results can be catastrophic.
Anyone who thinks that it’s fine for them to be used in the way they are should read this article in full, the details are eye-opening, and I use that term deliberately.
We’re seeing a lot of shocking footage coming out of the US currently, but how representative are they of the force(s) as a whole? Many surely are good people trying to make a difference whilst running the risk daily of being shot dead after stopping someone for a speeding offence.
I should say that, although I've been mainlining police brutality videos for the last 12 days, in no way do I think that's typical of anything other than a tiny percentage of the forces over there. There are plenty of videos of police showing solidarity, which is fantadtic and genuinely heart-warming - but it's the violence that's so striking at the moment, precisely because it's coming from some of the very people that are supposed to protect the public they're beating up.
Rydster, your analysis of Windrush sounds like it was written by Trump. Have a word with yourself.
No point, he’s sat in his own little echo-chamber.
I think he’s just a really shit troll who has to have an answer for everything. A bit like an irresponsible adolescent.
Not an adolescent, a five year old who just keeps saying ‘why?’ to every answer that’s given.
About the same emotional age as Angry Tinkerbell.
He does remind me very much of a former forum member who used to indulge in much the same sort of behaviour.
Name began with J, ended with y...
He was an irritating jackass too.
TBH chewkw, and I don’t mean this in a pejorative way, unless you actually hold a doctorate in Constitutional History and you can make value judgements based on a critical analysis of David’s work, including all his written works, his lectures, his research and opinions. You views on whether he’s a good historian or not are about as valid as the fart I just let out are.
I like David Starkey historical views on the Tudor as presented on TV, in my view he is very good at his interpretation of the Tudor. Tudors are no angels put it this way and he is merely presenting information that he considers consistent with that period. Of course everyone can criticise his views or reject his interpretation but to me he is presenting another perspective to history, which is brilliant in my mind. All the other historians are merely presenting the information that are rather "soft".
Jesus Christ! Once more, this time I will type slowly, see if that works. Not all revolutions are good, some are bad. Revolutions are some time’s the only viable way forward when all other attempts at diplomacy or peace fail. They are bloody, horrific things most of the time, but can lead to positive change in the long run. There, is that better?
Majority of the revolution will end up with some form of bloodshed in order to see drastic change. My granduncle was a Cultural Revolutionist while my father fought against "revolutionists". Do you really want more bloodshed?
David Starkey made me laugh when he criticised the youth of today for affecting their speech with Ebonics. Failing to realise that the strength of the English language has been it’s adaptability and mutability. English has become the lingua franca of the world precisely because of its ability to adapt to the times and accomodate existing (foreign) words into its lexicon.
It was also very much the a case of the pot calling the kettle…. For David Starkey has perhaps the most affected voice in the Country, he sounds posher than the Queen, and that’s simply not possible. The Queen is the poshest person in the world, it’s her only job.
Yes, he interprets history with a posh accent but that does not matter to me. What matters me is his interpretation of history from another perspective.
Now I don't know how much you know about South East Asia history but a lot of the information was interpreted one sided until further interpretation/investigation came from China, India, Middle East etc (they were trading with each other in those days). It is interesting to see all the different interpretations and accounts of the events in those days. To say history can be interpreted in one perspective can only create distortion ... history has always been written by the winner of some sort.
Majority of the revolution will end up with some form of bloodshed in order to see drastic change. My granduncle was a Cultural Revolutionist while my father fought against “revolutionists”. Do you really want more bloodshed?
I.......
In fact no, I really can’t be arsed anymore. I’ve explained this about ten times now. Reread my posts or don’t. I couldn’t give a shit either way now to be honest.
All hail the killfile. 🙌