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Yes, abolish them.
The 'many people work hard to send their kids to private school' argument is blinkered and arrogant.
Many people work equally as hard just to survive.
I see nothing positive in private education.
Divisive and promotes a sense of superiority which poisons our society.
Instead of 'dragging people down', why don't we aspire to lift everyone up?
Of course, that would mean people paying more tax.
I'm happy to do so.
You?
Of course, that would mean people paying more tax.
I’m happy to do so.
You already can pay more than you are required to, so I assume you do...
A different question. 🙂
If private schools were abolished, I'd be happy to pay more tax to fund the state sector.
You?
will only result in dragging everyone down to a lower level
Dear me, your education was wasted on you, JP. You didn't grasp the basics. My wife still teaches, she often comes out with the opposite expression "tirer vers le haut" to justify mixed ability classes.
The problem is come election time the majority votes for the “Ill make you richer” party instead of the “Ill charge you more for better services” mob.
I'd rather people had the choice, Rusty, rather than just proposing a ban for cheap playing to the galleries.
Obviously, this in no way means I don't want state education to improve. Far from it.
Also, every child who is educated privately has parents who effectively are paying for an untaken school place. Good funding model, shirley?
Rusty Spanner
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Yes, abolish them.
The ‘many people work hard to send their kids to private school’ argument is blinkered and arrogant.
Many people work equally as hard just to survive.I see nothing positive in private education.
Divisive and promotes a sense of superiority which poisons our society.Instead of ‘dragging people down’, why don’t we aspire to lift everyone up?
Of course, that would mean people paying more tax.
I’m happy to do so.
You?
Self righteous and having a complete lack of understanding of the sector in one post. You're doing well tonight.
JP
You already can pay more than you are required to, so I assume you do…
So it can be spent on more illegal wars and tax breaks for the rich, that would be silly. You missed the proviso that the tax would be spent on a fairer education system, Flashy. But then you specialise in reading selectively and making provocative comments that demonstrate voluntarily poor reading and understanding skills. It that result of your education?
Question from a Scottish perspective: my understanding is that all teachers used to be expected to engage in extra-curricular sports/societies etc, but after the mid-80s strikes this arrangement broke down in the state sector and now only continues in the private sector (despite private teachers being paid pretty much the same). Was that the dynamic and is this still the case? If, all else being equal, private schools were abolished/nationalised I guess extra-curricular would cease across the board?
Sod it. Not worth the effort.
I’d rather people had the choice, Rusty, rather than just proposing a ban for cheap playing to the galleries.
I don't think it is just playing to the cheap seats. I see it a fundamental step to ensuring equality of opportunity.
Self righteous and having a complete lack of understanding of the sector in one post. You’re doing well tonight.
I see it as a counterpoint to the arrogance and entitlement displayed by some of those who are pro public school.
You can take it any way you like. 🙂
Flashy, happy to engage in a debate without getting personal.
It's a topic that needs airing.
Rusty, I get the ambition, but have to disagree. I cant see how this would help state education. More pupils flooding in, increased postcode pressure to buy property in catchment areas etc.
It's just cheap point scoring bashing Eton toffs, sadly. There are no proposals to actually improve anything, just keep banning and taxing.
(Edit - nothing personal pointed at you, Rusty old fruit! I wouldn't, and hope you know that! Please accept my apologies if I overstepped somewhere)
jjprestidge how much are the fees you pay? I'll bet you are in the richest 20% of the country if you would reveal your salary ( I won't blame you if you don't but I would be interested in how much the fees are)
CFH - it would improve state education by getting all those active interested parents involved and thus they would pressure the school system to improve - and those motivate middle class kids would be an example to the others and even mentor others from less advantaged backgrounds
I have seen this work - I was one of the middle class kids in a comp.
CFH – it would improve state education by getting all those active interested parents involved and thus they would pressure the school system to improve – and those motivate middle class kids would be an example to the others and even mentor others from less advantaged backgrounds
There is mileage in this argument. There are studies suggesting that the presence of high attaining kids in classes can help the education of those that are lower attaining without adversely affecting their own education.
Self righteous and having a complete lack of understanding of the sector in one post.
Whilst you throw all the pedagogical content in your various courses out of the window because it conflicts your gung-ho-private-schools-are-ace personal crusade, JP. I suggest you spent too long in them, Stockholm syndrome. There was one elitist on the PGCE course I did, but most teachers were intent on doing their best for the whole of society, and some revelled in working in the poorest inner city schools because that was where they felt they were needed the most and got the most out of their work.
TJ - I looked at Private for my youngest. It was 14000/year. He was offered a 40% academic scholarship, but wanted to go to the Grammar he got offered a place at.
14000/yr is about standard for a “normal” private school. Top tier ones are up to 40k
No offence taken Flash, it wasn't aimed at you.
More pupils flooding in, increased postcode pressure to buy property in catchment areas etc.
The buildings and infrastructure will still be there, so a moot point.
It would involve a fundamental change in approach, taking into account all we've learned in the past century or so.
It would have to be undertaken with the cooperation of everyone involved with the objective of benefitting society as a whole.
Sadly, I think we may be beyond that now, the cult of the individual has bitten too deeply.
Something encouraged and promoted by those already in a position of privilege.
The building and infrastructure is owned by a private company. Are we turning into Zimbabwe?
A concrete example, Athray. Junior did German and as there were enough kids for nearly a class they were all put together. This created something of an elite class because the bright kids tended to do German, which given where we are isn't really acceptable. So the remaining places were taken by difficult kids I'll politely describe a socially deprived.
It worked really well, kids that might have caused trouble were caught up in generally positive mood and the doctors and dentists' kids got to mix with kids who weren't from a privileged elite. Win, win. The problems start when you have classes with a majority who don't want to be there or exclusively a self-serving elite with contempt for anyone 'below' them.
'Charitable Foundation' surely? 🙂
Perhaps we could attempt to turn into a society where equality of opportunity is something to aspire to, rather than something to be mocked by those who would rather benefit at the expense of the most vulnerable.
No offence taken Flash
At yet with the exception of his jolly jolly contributions to ski, posh car, posh holiday, posh travel, posh tat... threads that's mainly what he's here for, to provoke and offend.
He's watching this thread but making no contribution beyond provocation about tax and yet his whole STW persona is built around the public school p... . A sort of STW JRM. And therein lies the problem with British society from where I'm sitting which is why Flash never communicates with me other than to try and take the Micky and I play the role I assume he expects me play.
In an ideal world equal opportunity for all sounds great. In reality it means dumbing down to the lowest common denominator.
Take aviation, my industry. We now have EASA (Europe wide) regulations and safety regulations. That undoubtedly improved things in the worst country, but the safest/best practice authorities (UK/Germany/Scandinavia) had there rules diluted . The airlines who see maximum duty times and maximum annual flight totals as targets rather than maximums loved it and productivity increased (Read that as work their pilots harder with less rest)
So jjprestidge who claims not to be rich is paying somewhere around £14000 pa for a child to go to private school ( or presumably a similar amount?) to have that much discretionary spend means you are rich. No question at all.
Put it this way - I earn just over the average wage - around £32000 pa. I take home around £22000 pa. My house costs me in total a very small amount of around £5000 pa including bills So that school fee would be more than I have left after eating.
On £32000 pa I know I am rich. To be able to afford school fees in that sort of area you must be rich indeed
....that’s mainly what he’s here for, to provoke and offend.
We've all said things that could be taken as provocative and offensive over the many years we've been on here.
The trick is not to be provoked or offended. 🙂
I'd be happy to go for a drink and a chat with pretty much anyone on here.
Especially those with a sense of perspective and humour.
Anyone for an amusing interlude?
Yes, of course, I hear you cry!
https://twitter.com/twlldun/status/1176210007140052992?s=19
mainly what he’s here for, to provoke and offend.
Dry your eyes, sweet cheeks.
The problems start when you have classes with a majority who don’t want to be there or exclusively a self-serving elite with contempt for anyone ‘below’ them.
Problems that won't be touched by abolishing private schools.
The poorer schools will still be the victim of their own geography.
The rich will still cluster and "support" the school that their priveliged postcode has bought them.
Rusty - I’m all for raising standards across the board. I do believe in selection, ambition and competition though.
The problems start when you have classes with a majority who don’t want to be there or exclusively a self-serving elite with contempt for anyone ‘below’ them.
I’d disagree, in that IME you do not need anywhere near a majority of children who don’t want to be there to undermine a class and destroy the chances of those who want to learn. In extreme cases one can be enough.
On the flip side, I have never known a private school class entirely (or even substantially) populated by a self serving elite with contempt for those ‘below’ them.
The poorer schools will still be the victim of their own geography.
The rich will still cluster and “support” the school that their priveliged postcode has bought them.
Yep. Unavoidable. A nice leafy village school will differ massively from one in a deprived inner city location. A tough circle to square.
I’m all for raising standards across the board. I do believe in selection, ambition and competition though.
Yep. The two don't have to be mutually exclusive.
These things happen in the state sector as well.
And equality of opportunity does not mean that they would cease.
A nice leafy village school will differ massively from one in a deprived inner city location.
Abolishing private education has nothing to do with that.
It's a separate issue which needs to be addressed.
Dry your eyes, sweet cheeks.
The trick is not to be provoked or offended. 🙂
What this public schools debate is really is an expression of a class war. Britain has been divided on the basis of class since the dark ages and the public school system is the most blatant expression of it, and the means by which it is perpetuated. Not surprising then that a Labour party that wishes to get back to its roots has the destruction of public schools as policy.
Edit: and Flash has joined the debate. 😉
No indeed it doesn’t. Equally, funding education properly and a credible long term strategy doesn’t require destruction of the private system just to please The green eyed monsters.
The abolition of private schools
Crikey 😮
Where I come from we prefer to them as private or fees paying schools. Public school ... err ... me not English so not sure where that term comes from.
There is an entrance exam and the class size is minimum 45 students.
If students do not pass at the end of the year with average 50% they cannot move on to the next level. They have 3 chances.
All private schools (my part of the world) Do Not get govt funding at all. Nil. All based on donation from the community and fees.
That's really annoying isn't it, Chewkw, In Britain private schools are called public schools.
You realise he was a wealthy bloke who had intelligent and good looking kids?
Handsome!!
And his stunning dad with some other bloke.
It only has to be a war if you see it as such.
If you truly believe in equality, see it as an opportunity to create a fairer society.
The desire to 'punish' people is just a negative, destructive aspect of human nature, indulged in by unpleasant people, no matter how they self identify.
This isn’t the Corbyn thread.Handsome!!
A nice leafy village school will differ massively from one in a deprived inner city location. A tough circle to square.
Which can be squared with sufficient resources for the deprived inner city school. Positive descrimination to provide more investment in inner city schools to reduce class sizes, provide the range of activities that are provide by parents in leafy vilages, provide services in school that kids don't have at home or in the community because they are poor. The community can also benefit from these fascilities outside of school hours.
That’s really annoying isn’t it, Chewkw, In Britain private schools are called public schools.
Yes, that is confusing when I first landed on British soil. Still is ...
What's with this grammar school, public school, private, academic etc ... just confusing.
It only has to be a war if you see it as such.
The rich have been waging war on and 'punishing' the poor forever, when very often the only crime being poor. Seeing it as an opportuity is rare, most of the poor are resigned to their fate.
Vive la révolution ! 🙂
But seriously, listening to some of the Labour speakers at the conference today the message was class war but dressed up in fancy language.
Labour going further left allows Conservatives to go further right while still managing their margin over Labour.
Don't think this is a good thing.
2 Grammar schools got more ppf than the state schools the rest get less. Except that just recently 16 Grammar schools split a £50 million pound pot to create 4000 places. Don't think any 16 non grammars can make that claim.
Selective and specialist state (grammar but not grammar schools) can access more and different sources of funding because they are 'special'
Plus being selective they don't have to deal with all those expensive kids with extra needs etc
Labour going further left allows Conservatives to go further right while still managing their margin over Labour.
If the one party move's left the other parties move left to hoover up the votes from the 'less left people' abandoned by the first party safe in the knowledge their core vote have nowhere else to go.
Hence May trying to sort out social care and Boris going full on pork barrel.
Probably irrelevant since unless something changes the coming election is going to be about Brexit and nothing else.