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Prince Harry and the art teacher producing his coursework at Eton
Can someone point to something that details the 'funding' that private schools get? (and not regarding charitable status because that's not money going to the schools)
Well, thanks to Kimbers I’ve now gone down a rabbit hole reading about the statistical robustness or lack of it in genome wide association studies.
Thanks a lot dude.
God damn it
they’re coming after state schools as well by abolishing OFSTED:
Or, more accurately, replacing it.
I do wonder what the venn diagram for those supporting private schools but also saying they believe in a meritocracy would be.
Aggghhhhh – the politics of Envy
How does closing down private schools improve the quality of state education? If we improved the quality of state education, then private schools would cease to exist.
Horseshit.
First of all the whole "envy" thing is bollocks. I come from money. There I said it. I was blessed to have been raised in a home where my dad was in the right business at the right time, and so I grew up with no want. So I don't really "envy" private school stakeholders. The "envy" card always gets played by those who don't want to wrestle with the actual issues.
Anyway, I am a strong advocate of improvement in educational provision across the board, but it's a bit of a chicken-egg problem. Mainstream education doesn't get the funding it needs, coupled with a lack of vision and aspiration for the sector that sees it languish and unable to substantially improve. Consequently private education retains its "superior" position. Then, as long as the "superior" private sector continues to turn out self-satisfied politicians, there will never be the will to substantially improve mainstream education.
The kid who lives opposite us goes to our local big private school. He genuinely thinks this makes him better and cleverer than the rest of the kids. In his mind, his higher status in society is already well established at the age of ten.
This. A girl I know who chose to leave her local private school says to anyone who will listen that the first words out of the mouth of her form tutor there were, "Welcome to the One Percent".
Not, "Welcome, girls, to your new school. With great advantage comes great responsibility", or anything like that, "Welcome to the effing One Percent". It's sickening.
My partner is a teacher, and says there’s a lot of teacher assisted cheating going on in private schools.
I worked half my teaching career in the state system and half in the private, teaching in a coursework heavy subject. I have seen nothing personally to suggest this is any more than rumour and supposition.
Mixed feelings on the charitable status thing. The title is frankly absurd. But do those out of the system actually know what it means in reality? I'd be intrigued to know the level of knowledge of what the benefit is in reality and what it 'costs' to get it. Personally I would advocate that it stayed for the benefits the local community get from the schools, the bursary education that would be lost and an acknowledgment that 610000 places in state schools are saved. But international students should have to pay VAT on their fees and the business rates discount should be dependant on the percentage of international students in the school.
The system is about to be put under pressure massively anyway and that's before charitable status changes one way or another. Changes to the teacher pension scheme happening very soon mean the employer contribution for employers in the independent sector are about to go through the roof to the extent that most independent school will not be able to afford to offer it as a benefit for their teachers. Teachers in independent schools don't get paid much more than those in the state sector and generally work much longer hours. Quite simply once schools fall out of the TPS working in an independent school will be looking like a poor deal and it will become a tough recruitment drive.
Oh, and how are we feeling about kids in state schools who have parents who pay for after school or holiday tuition? In the same camp ethically?
Or, more accurately, replacing it.
Spending a fortune on abolishing OFSTED and then spending a second fortune on reinstating it with a new name? Really?
raybanwomble
Member
Well, thanks to Kimbers I’ve now gone down a rabbit hole reading about the statistical robustness or lack of it in genome wide association studies.Thanks a lot dude.
God damn it
all studies are underpowered
Interesting that the discussion tends to focus on private schools when some of the selective state schools (Grammar but these days not limited to Grammar) end up with per pupil funding that is much more that the bulk of state schools and clearly massively unfair.
The best line in a film I've heard in a while "if you don't use every advantage you have and all the power you have to improve the life of your children, you've either never had any power or you've never had any children"
Like private health care, people will pay large amounts of money to ensure they get what they need, but those same people would scream blue murder if anyone suggested paying that same money into the state system (say in taxes) and then everyone could have what they need.
Like private health care, people will pay large amounts of money to ensure they get what they need, but those same people would scream blue murder if anyone suggested paying that same money into the state system (say in taxes) and then everyone could have what they need.
This is utter bollocks. I'd happily pay more tax, the problem is:
a) successive govts have misused the tax we pay and **** everything up.
b) lots of big companies and rich people pay no tax at all, if they paid theirs the money would not be an issue.
Whats the point in me paying more tax when it will make no difference?
This. A girl I know who chose to leave her local private school says to anyone who will listen that the first words out of the mouth of her form tutor there were, “Welcome to the One Percent”.
Not, “Welcome, girls, to your new school. With great advantage comes great responsibility”, or anything like that, “Welcome to the effing One Percent”. It’s sickening.
This reminds me of my old chemistry teacher (an old school lefty, it was Lanarkshire after all) who told us that we all had to work much harder and better as we were up against the “Fiona Ponsinby Smythe’s” of the world who all had far more privileges in this world.
Aggghhhhh – the politics of Envy
It's nothing of the sort.
I'm happy for some people to have more. It's essential, because as we saw in communist societies there needs to be an incentive one way or the other and money is currently our simplest option.
The key issue though is that there needs to be a baseline available to everyone, and that needs to be as good as possible. Not good given the funding, or good for the proles, but EVERYONE needs to start with the best education. As long as private schools exist, they will compete with state schools for kids of rich and successful people in high power jobs and this will drive segregation and limit people's experience and sense of identity. Not only that but these kids would benefit hugely from going to school with the rest of the hoi polloi.
Once you correct for the selective nature of private schools they do not provide a better education.
But they are allowed to be selective, aren't they? This is a big part of it. And they are selective by default because you need money to go there.
How does closing down private schools improve the quality of state education?
What do you think would happen to the local shitty comprehensive if the kid of a Tory landowner was forced to go there? It'd improve pretty damn quickly wouldn't it? The issue is one of segregation, and that you can buy confidence and status for your kids.
David Cameron was mocked for saying 'we're all in this together'. Private education is one big reason why we're not.
It's not often I get annoyed by another poster on here but @DT78
However married to a teacher of 27yrs experience, the statement "Staff that genuinely seem to care about the pupil more" real - what a crock.... There are teachers who care and those that don't but to assume that private teachers care more than state school teachers is ridiculous.
If it wasn't for the Fiona Ponsonby-Smythe's of the world then most of the kids that I went to school with would have nobody worthwhile to burgle.
the hoi polloi.
Must...resist...
polygenic genome wide association scores of intellectual disability only show risk scores for IQ below 80. Otherwise there is little association between genetics and IQ. There are some large studies performed. For scary articles look up Stephen Hsu.
In fact, this thread is frankly full of some ignorance and prejudice. I work my arse off, I have borderline diabetes from sitting 12 hrs behind a desk, my stomach is playing up, my hair falling out, I spend every spare minute with the kids. I am meeting my requirements as a father to do the best financially and socially by my kids. Because I want to by the way.
And now I am immoral because the local schools suck, and I don't want to send my very intelligent but very very socially awkward daughter there and send her to a much better school where its working out quite well.
The problem with ideologies (like socialism and capitalism ) is that there is no reality considered.
Some left wing social justice types are self obsessed and won't look down the barrel at real peoples lives whilst pontificating about the latest cod theory. They piss me off nearly as much as the right.
This is utter bollocks. I’d happily pay more tax, the problem is:
a) successive govts have misused the tax we pay and **** everything up.
b) lots of big companies and rich people pay no tax at all, if they paid theirs the money would not be an issue.Whats the point in me paying more tax when it will make no difference?
You are one of the few that would happily pay more tax, it seems.
I couldn't agree more, if everyone paid their fair share of taxes that would be great. Doesn't mean that people who pay for private health care or schooling would be willing to put it into the general pool thought.
You are assuming it will make no difference, but that is more about the government than anything else.
So on one hand you are willing to pay more tax but then you ask why you should pay more tax?
Otherwise there is little association between genetics and IQ.
Yeah that's IQ though. You can't get people to agree on what that is, whether it exists, and how to reliably test it if it does
There's lots of studies that show a heritable component to school performance. Some show quite a lot - over 50%. Doesn't mean what most people think it means though.
Actually many folk would pay more tax - in Scotland we voted almost 50% for a party on a manifesto of raising taxes
On private schools - if they didn't exist then the middle class parents might agitate to improve local schools. Indeed with those middle class kids there they would improve anyway
End the charitable status, tax them as the businesses they are, make them conformn to the national curriculum and I have no major issue with them. I have a huge issue that a part of my taxes effectivly goes to subsidising Eaton. that is abhorrent .
Mind you - they might produce better school exam results but it is well known that for the same school exam results private school pupils do worse in further education and of course the schools like eton do damage people badly and are breeding grounds for nepotism and the reinforcement of privaledfge and the smaller private schools are often awful - not my opinion - that of education professionals I know
Really?
No. Do you want to try again preferably first actually bothering to get a clue about it rather than just making stuff up.
There are almost certainly pros and cons to the proposals but there really is no point just inventing shit.
Half the problem with the public school system is the old boy and girl network. A group of people who would rather deal with an idiot who is ‘one of us’ rather than someone who is far better qualified and suited to the job who isn’t.
I can’t imagine that Richard Branson would have got through the front door of the bank when he started out if he hadn’t been to Stowe. I’ve met plenty of people who quite seriously question how businesses fail, when their business borrowing is entirely through their family trust rather than a bank.
I used to get upset about this sort of thing but I’m just resigned to it now. The public school system is just a symptom, although why the schools have charitable status has always baffled me. Their charitable activities have always seemed to be the minimum possible to keep the charities commission off their back
You are one of the few that would happily pay more tax, it seems.
I couldn’t agree more, if everyone paid their fair share of taxes that would be great.
Absolutely. The fair rate is under half what I pay. Lets get cracking.
For me @molgrips touched on the most important reason to shut private schools. If the vast majority of people who end up in power had little to no contact with the "hoi polloi" during their formative years, no experience of the state education system, and there is no likelihood of their children having any experience of it either. Then there's little chance they are going to be motivated to do anything about making it better, and even less chance of having any idea what they could do, even if they were.
Politicians and people with power and influence are just like everybody else, they only care about stuff that effects them, so if you want them to care about education, healthcare or anything else, you'd better make sure it effects them as much as everyone else. That's why allowing people to buy themselves out of societies systems is such a bad idea, it's a recipe for neglect.
Yes its about successive governments. How come in Norway and Finland they have very few private schools?
I will answer, its because they have not got governments packed with self serving scum who spend tax on projects that make them or their pals/families richer or build edifices to themselves.
I said, I would happily pay more tax -however I don't want to because these twits will waste it, and there are the super rich who pay eff all...
Actually many folk would pay more tax – in Scotland we voted almost 50% for a party on a manifesto of raising taxes
At the risk of derailing the topic people voted for taxes to rise that they themselves wouldn’t generally be paying. I’d have a lot more sympathy with your position if the vote was for an increase to all taxation brackets. There would be a lot more money raised too.
I’d have a lot more sympathy with your position if the vote was for an increase to all taxation brackets.
I voted for it knowing full well that i'd pay a big chunk more and that that would also mean that i'd be subsidising others who would pay less. It just seemed fair.
I don't think i'm unusual in that regard.
Must…resist…
No, Flashy, go ahead. I'll just point out that when foreign words or phrases are brought into English they no longer follow the rules of their original language. There are numerous examples of foreign phrases becoming adopted and used as nouns. Out of interest, do you speak Greek or did you just read that on the internet like I did?
It’s a lot less than you’d think. Parental attitudes and support to education (rather than their intelligence) are better indicators of performance.
Just wondering if anyone else picked up on that distinction ?
mahhowlett, I disagree, because its based on the assumption that ALL private schools only have the rich and privileged. In fact MOST are populated with kids from all walks. Its a sledgehammer to crack a nut. Maybe ban Eton?
That's my point about prejudice. Most private schools are not like Eton. That's why you have never heard of them.
I have a huge issue that a part of my taxes effectivly goes to subsidising Eaton. that is abhorrent .
Really? I'm sure if you ask nicely they'll give you the 0.00001p (give or take a decimal place or two) back
How come in Norway and Finland they have very few private schools?
I will answer, its because they have not got governments packed with self serving scum who spend tax on projects that make them or their pals/families richer or build edifices to themselves.
And why do they not have governments full of self serving scum? Well, they have bad politicians for sure, but the concept of equality is embedded in Finland in a way that it never has been here, not since the Norman conquest. We got an embedded aristocracy from somewhere, so we have always had a big powerful and incredibly rich elite. This didn't happen in Finland.
raybanwomble
The paper you posted earlier appears to undermine that notion.
paper said their polygenic score was less of a factor than prior achivement and socioeconimic status etc, obviously they are related but the difference in salaries between private vs state educated are far larger than any genetic differnces
@molgrips Fair, but you assume that private schools are full of self serving scum's kids, when in fact some, or most of them are full of ordinary peoples kids , its just that the mums and dads worked bloody hard to send them there.
And why do they not have governments full of self serving scum? Well, they have bad politicians for sure, but the concept of equality is embedded in Finland in a way that it never has been here, not since the Norman conquest. We got an embedded aristocracy from somewhere, so we have always had a big powerful and incredibly rich elite. This didn’t happen in Finland.
You might not like immigrants but they did very well for themselves.
Saw this news this morning. Labour seem to have forgotten the important next step in this plan:
1. Abolish private schools. They're unfair.
2. [mumble mumble]
3. Everybody wins!!
The 2nd step is kinda vital though - I've seen and heard absolutely nothing about how abolishing private schools will help kids in the state education system. And so it's just vindictiveness masquerading as socialism. "Just because those kids are being let down by the state system, you should all have to be let down by the state system!"
At the risk of derailing the topic people voted for taxes to rise that they themselves wouldn’t generally be paying. I’d have a lot more sympathy with your position if the vote was for an increase to all taxation brackets. There would be a lot more money raised too.
NOpe - Most of us voted knowing full well we would be paying more tax. the extra income tax kicks in at just under national average wage. I earn just over. I poay more tax than an English nurse. I am happy to do so
I would much prefer a Netherlands or Scandenavian type taxation - significantly higher.
The UK is a low tax economy - some of the lowest in the world. YOu have to account for the fact that ALL our healthcare is paid out of tax and add that to your calculations. Take that into acount we are only just above US levels of tax and about half the netherlands.
plus, the French for example had a revolution and got rid of 'the man' that the rest of us work for.
I dunno what the solution is, but its not fair to take away normal peoples aspirations and the aspirations of their kids for an ideological project against the elite.
I am happy and willing to fix education, but current and previous govts don't seem to give a shit.
Given Corbyns silence about inequality dude to tax avoidance (which is the biggest issue look a the tax justice network, they estimate some very large numbers like double the annual budgt, avoided), I don't trust him to fix it either.
@5plusn8 my argument isn't based on the all private schools being like Eton at all. It just relies on a disproportionate number of people who went to private schools ending up in positions of power and influence and the fact that once they get there they will be most interested in resolving issues that effect them i.e. not state education. The fact that they were 'ordinary' kids when they went into private education doesn't make the slightest difference. And yes they are full of self serving scums kids, just like the state schools :), that's why you need to align 'self serving' with 'for the good of society', everyone is self serving.
A disproportionate number of people in power went to Oxford or Cambridge.
Should we ban these universities too?
I am happy that its the case as it seems like the smartest people should go to the best universities. The other Uni's are just not as good.
So the fact that private schools produce e more 'leaders' is just a reflection on how crap the state sector is. Banning private schools won't fix that. Its woolly thinking in a cart before the horse way. If the state sector was as good as the private sector in education, guess where all the rich kids would be going?
In fact I challenge you to look at one of the best state schools in the country, by results - which I just found on line 'Colyton' in Devon. And look at house prices nearby.
Its also selective. I will try and find out if its full of rich kids, but my cursory glance at right move suggests it must be.
department of education spokesman remarked about Colyton:
"Some of these state schools do outperform many independents but there is plenty of research showing that they also tend to have more affluent intakes than other local state schools."
I'll tell the story of my secondary school. I was lucky to go to secondary during a short period when we had a truly comprehensive system in Scotland. You went to the local primary, you went to the local secondary of a very very few went to fee paying schools.
My school was a big comp mainly getting pupils from the big post war estates - Arden Darnley and Carnwadric with a small middle class enclave around muirend. Those middle class kids like me got a broader education by meeting folks from different background - some of whom I am still friends with. that was valuable to me. The kids from the estates met the middle class kids with their aspirations for university and so on and also we had a viable 5th year ( 6th form to the english) That showed them there was more to aspire to than they knew. Everybody wins. I know kids from those estates that went on to become doctors and so on - without the middle class kids then this would have been harder.
the school was fantastic with state of the art facilities including a swimming pool, our own sports pitches, 3 gyms, language labs etc and most importantly attracted top quality teachers.
Come the "choice agenda" all the middle class kids stopped going to Hillpark and went to "shawlands academy" which was an ex grant aided school but one with much poorer facilities simply because it was the ex grant aided school and had academy in its name. Hillpark became a sink school, 5th year was less viable as less were doing highers so the range of highers offered was lower. the best teachers all left so the general standard was lower.
the result - the ghetoisation of the school and damage to everyones education - even those middle class kids got a worse education as shawlands facilities were poor in comparision.
So although on the surface a comprehensive system may produce slightly lower exam scores Education in a broiader sense is much better and most importantly social mobility was improved. those kids from the estates now have a lower chance of doing well at school. that sucks
5plusn8
Member
A disproportionate number of people in power went to Oxford or Cambridge.
Should we ban these universities too?
looking at the job those in power are doing running the country............?
So the fact that private schools produce e more ‘leaders’ is just a reflection on how crap the state sector is.
You're assuming that our 'leaders' are there because the private sector produces better leaders rather than just producing people more likely who get to become leaders
The other subsidy to private schools ( and healthcare) is those teacher and nurses and doctors were trained from the public purse. How much does it cost to train a teacher? £50 000? More? Private schools should have to pay that for every teacher they recruit.
because its based on the assumption that ALL private schools only have the rich and privileged
Well they are definitely privileged. Rich is more subjective but they are fairly rich too compared to a lot of people who can barely afford to eat each day (they won't be sending their kids to a private school...)