religion being taught in schools at an academic level. So I suppose, that’d be theology rather than R.E maybe? I don’t see how teaching “Christian people believe X, whereas Muslim people think Y” is particularly problematic.
I did R.E as a GCSE in the 90's (at a non faith school) and that's essentially what it was. We looked at various topics then compared how different groups viewed that topic. Looking back I think that's a great idea and should be something everyone is taught, maybe it would create a greater level of understanding and tolerance in kids before they get too old and set in their opinions!?
It was optional though, only reason I chose it at the time was because I didn't want to do geography 😜
As an aside; a lot of schools were set up BY the churche
The majority of those schools though were funded by the government though.
The churches, as now, just took taxpayers money and claimed the credit.
Ultimately this question really comes down to tolerance for me.
If people want to send their children to faith schools, that's entirely a matter for them.
Secularists(of which I am one) should not be allowed to impose their views upon them.
As long as there is a demand for faith schools, and that they implement the national curriculum, correctly, it's all fair do's.
I really don't get why I should be able to impose my atheism on others.
Which is what this is all about.
No
Why “abolish”? Surely your beef is with the funding as charities?
Or just “I don’t agree with this group, I want their school banned” which is what most of the above comments sound like to my jaded old ears
No
My both my children are at secondary and primary Jewish schools - not religious,
Both schools are fully inclusive and so far over the last 10 years I’ve not seen any indoctrination.
Cat amongst the pigeons
What about Muslim schools should they be allowed ??? Labour wouldn’t know what way to turn 😂
Some HUGE sweeping statements in a few posts.
If this was any other thread they'd be called out for the goggled eyed stupidity that they are.
But it's a religion thread, so all the outstanding norms of this forum go out the window.
promote monoculture and normalise religious discrimination at an early age.
My kids have had multiple visits to Mosques, Synagogues and Hindu Temples ... throughout the school, on the walls, there are always many pieces of work encompassing different religions.
faith schools are simply a way of indoctrinating impressionable children
Really ?
I really don’t get why I should be able to impose my atheism on others.
You seem to be confusing secularism with atheism.
dissonance
Subscriber
I really don’t get why I should be able to impose my atheism on others.You seem to be confusing secularism with atheism.
regardless the point is the same, the motivation for all of this is generally for people to attack what they don't like.
regardless the point is the same
That you say its regardless makes it fairly clear you dont actually get the distinction.
I would be as opposed to a school pushing atheism as I am to faith schools.
Especially in those cases where it is either used as a form of covert selection or, at the opposite end, the only choice in the area.
If parents want to bring their kids up on in a faith then go to sunday school etc. Dont use the school system to do so.
I said "promote monoculture" in the OP because it's pretty much implicit in admissions selection from a single religious background. The Catholic church is even more explicit about it (for both senses of the word "promote").
"For certain leadership positions ... there is a requirement that the position be filled by a practising Catholic in order to maintain the Catholic ethos of the school."
Whatever you think about private schools they provide an alternative to the state system, increase variety and don’t suck much from the state.
Faith schools, on the other hand, are funded by the state but explicitly reduce the education opportunities available within the state system, promote monoculture and normalise religious discrimination at an early age.
I agree 100% with the abolition of faith schools, but unfortunately BOTH of your opening statements are completely wrong.
The problem with private schools has been adequately covered on the other thread, but while I don't think faith and state-based education, I also don't think that they "reduce opportunities", "promote monoculture" (wtf?!?), or "normalise religious discrimination at an early age". If anything, a good faith school should be promoting inclusivity based on the fundamental integrity of every human being.
Please, carry on with opposing faith schools. I'm on your side. But don't do it based on caricature.
"Surely your beef is with the funding as charities?"
No. Faith schools are funded in the same was a other state schools (to all intents and purposes). So it's not "I want their school banned" it's "I don't want to fund their school".
dissonance
Subscriber
regardless the point is the sameThat you say its regardless makes it fairly clear you dont actually get the distinction.
I would be as opposed to a school pushing atheism as I am to faith schools.
Especially in those cases where it is either used as a form of covert selection or, at the opposite end, the only choice in the area.
If parents want to bring their kids up on in a faith then go to sunday school etc. Dont use the school system to do so.
I get the difference, but carry on deflecting from my point anyhow...
This question doesn't come from a noble aim, it's generally bigots using it as a vehicle to promote their views.
Promote monoculture I've covered already.
Reduce opportunities is simple. There are n schools in the state system. There are m schools that select on entry. There are therefore n-m schools available to those outside of the religious selection criteria. The number of education opportunities is reduced, particularly because the catchment area for schools is so small. Same as if Tesco started only selling to one religion, your choice of supermarkets would be reduced.
Normalise religious discrimination is also easy. "Mum, why can't I go to Elsbeth's school?" "Because she's a Catholic and you aren't". Or even "Sir, you're a really good teacher are you going for the deputy head job?". "No, I'm an Anglican and it's only open to Catholics".
This question doesn’t come from a noble aim,
Your ability to read minds is absolutely astounding. Perhaps best not to judge others by your own standards?
it’s generally bigots using it as a vehicle to promote their views.
So the people saying schools shouldnt push specific views are the bigots promoting their views.
Interesting logic there.
I don't really have to read peoples minds, we've already got people on the thread directly saying catholic schools 'entrench sectarianism'.
It was optional though, only reason I chose it at the time was because I didn’t want to do geography
It wasn't at my school, it was a core subject for all five years. You could opt to take additional RE as a GCSE subject come Options time but if you didn't you still sat the base lessons (with no exam at the end).
But it’s a religion thread, so all the outstanding norms of this forum go out the window.
No, it’s a religion thread, but it doesn't get any preferential treatment because of that. The Report Post link works just like on every other thread should someone say anything which you believe contravenes the forum rules.
Faith school supporters seem to argue that faith schools apparently do nothing faith related(!) but yet are still different in some special way.
Apparently these 4 facts are true of faith schools;
1. Don't indoctrinate pupils into a religious viewpoint.
2. Teach about all faiths equally (and never as fact)
3. Are fully funded by the state with no additional funding from the church in question.
4. Are legally allowed to discriminate, in a limited way, in the pupils they accept.
So which one could possibly explain the advantage that separates them from state schools?
I'll wait while you realise that faith school proponents are claim that 1, 2, and 3 are true and then always try to explain why 4 is not the fundamental reason for their success.
No. As an atheist I'd not send my kids to one but if I was religious I'd probably consider it, we have some in town and they rate highly with Ofsted. Believe it or not children can actually mske their own minds up about religion, I did despite going to a faith school.
I don’t really have to read peoples minds
You do when you decide thats the position everyone is coming from.
we’ve already got people on the thread directly saying catholic schools ‘entrench sectarianism’.
Depends if they are correct. They were referring to a specific area which I have no familiarity with so not sure how valid it is.
However it shouldnt be controversial to note that, in some areas, faith schools have resulted in increased sectarianism.
So which one could possibly explain the advantage that separates them from state schools?
I'm not sure they do have an advantage? I mean, there are good faith schools cited here but are there more 'good' faith schools than non-faith ones?
The most fundamental argument against faith schools is NI.
I've said on here before that, growing up in NI, I didn't knowingly meet a catholic until I was a teenager. Its still true there today, and just as tragic.
That was fairly weird and extreme situation, but I fail to see how state funded sectarianism (which would be illegal in any tax funded sphere outside school) has somehow come to be seen as the magic sauce to improve educational attainment.
I’m not sure they do have an advantage?
One clear advantage is covert selection based on parental involvement. If you have parents willing to turn up at church every Sunday for several months prior to sending the forms in you can be confident those same parents will continue to invest in their kids education. As per the other thread if you have parents doing that you will generally get better results.
The most fundamental argument against faith schools is NI.
I'd say extreme rather than fundamental is more the word you are looking for.
The segregation of NI society isn't replicated in many places.
growing up in NI, I didn’t knowingly meet a catholic until I was a teenager.
Outside NI that situation just won't be recognised my many.
growing up in NI, I didn’t knowingly meet a catholic until I was a teenager.
Growing up in England I didn't either but I've still no idea of most people I know religion.
Pretty timely thread for me. Had to go to school last week to chat with the teachers. Had our five year old (year one) calling me and his mum liars whilst crying his eyes out. All because the teacher had told him that god invented the world, people, animals etc and his mother and I disagreed.
One clear advantage is covert selection based on parental involvement. If you have parents willing to turn up at church every Sunday for several months prior to sending the forms in you can be confident those same parents will continue to invest in their kids education. As per the other thread if you have parents doing that you will generally get better results.
Yup, that's the advantages of Faith Schools covered. Trying to get parents to vote for investing less in their kids is going to be a difficult sell.
any preferential treatment
I wasn't having a pop at mods.
More pointing out that this place self-governs pretty well for the most part.... Pie's without bases, Mumford and sons and sweeping statements (apart from when in a religion thread, it would seem) are quite rightly meet with derision.
And for the record you'll not catch me ever reporting anyone.... I don't like the thought of an all seeing, omnipresent being casting down damnation and ban hammers from up upon high.
What about Muslim schools should they be allowed ??? Labour wouldn’t know what way to turn 😂
😀 During the Cultural Revolution "all" religions were abolished because of idol(s) worshipping with the exception of Islam. According to my grandma/pa they were left alone because they don't have idol. They have "calligraphy".
mean, there are good faith schools cited here but are there more ‘good’ faith schools than non-faith ones?
There are definitely not enough non-faith primary schools in our local area to go around, so in our area, the answer to that is yes.
So catholic schools cause sectarianism?
Are you for real? Explain how that works?
we’ve already got people on the thread directly saying catholic schools ‘entrench sectarianism’.
What school did you go to?
Ever been asked that question?
Round here that's an extremely loaded question.
Outside NI that situation just won’t be recognised my many.
I'm sure if you took a walk around any area with an Orange Lodge you would find a lot of people that could.
regardless the point is the same, the motivation for all of this is generally for people to attack what they don’t like.
I don't like sectarianism. Anything we can do to eliminate the notion amongst some folk that there is an 'us and them' is fine by me. It's a disease that people seem to be unfathomably tolerant towards, yourself included. Maybe it's ignorance or maybe they don't care but how would you explain to your five year old daughter that her friends from nursery are going to a different school, with a different uniform, different teachers and a different head in the same bloody campus with literally a plaster wall between them? Its ****ing insane!
Down in Ardrossan they are wanting to build a similar campus and already the objections are flying, these are the kind of people who complain to the teachers if their kids get put in the green reading group!
What school did you go to?
Ever been asked that question?
Aye that question is definitely the fault of catholic schools. catch yerself on..
Outside NI that situation just won’t be recognised my many.
I’m sure if you took a walk around any area with an Orange Lodge you would find a lot of people that could.
So catholic schools should be banned because orange folk are bigoted... Perfect sense.
You seem to be taking this as an attack on catholics. It's not. It's an attack on the bigots. I know the historic reasons for seperate schooling but this is the 21st century FFS.
The only schools they want to shut in Scotland are Catholic schools. Up here it's a direct attack on them by bigots. The question may be different elsewhere, but that's exact what it's all about up here...
I'm actively against pandering to those bigots.
The most fundamental argument against faith schools is NI.
I’ve said on here before that, growing up in NI, I didn’t knowingly meet a catholic until I was a teenager. Its still true there today, and just as tragic.That was fairly weird and extreme situation, but I fail to see how state funded sectarianism (which would be illegal in any tax funded sphere outside school) has somehow come to be seen as the magic sauce to improve educational attainment
This and the "what school do you go to?" question (as asked by a group of lads to a kid on his own) really should end the thread. I could mention parent protests at that Birmingham school but nah...
I wasn’t having a pop at mods.
I didn't think you were. Rather, I thought you were suggesting that religious discussion is treated / handled differently from other conversations. It isn't. It's subject to the same rules, and afforded the same non-censorship, that anything else is.
More pointing out that this place self-governs pretty well for the most part…. Pie’s without bases, Mumford and sons and sweeping statements (apart from when in a religion thread, it would seem) are quite rightly meet with derision.
You're welcome to provide your own derision if it's not forthcoming from other quarters.
And for the record you’ll not catch me ever reporting anyone….
Well, the system is there for you to use, it's been in place for years and it works well. If you choose not to use it then that's your call of course, but you can't then complain about posts you don't like. Moderators actively censoring content based on there own personal biases isn't a forum I want to be a part of, and I doubt many others would like that much either.
I don’t like the thought of an all seeing, omnipresent being casting down damnation and ban hammers from up upon high.
I see what you did there.
Different places in different problems shocker. I assume by "up here" you are talking about somewhere well north of Ayrshire? FWIW plenty of non-catholic schools have been closed or amalgamated under the SNP and their drive to centralise everything.
FWIW I don't disagree with your stance in the scenario that only certain schools are being targetted, we should be "diluting" and distributing rather than actively closing schools unless there is a compelling reason to do so (low numbers or building fabric). NAC wanted to amalgamate all three schools on the new campus but the diocese refused to have anything to do with it, in the end they ended up with their pathetic plaserboard segregation.
Maybe it’s ignorance or maybe they don’t care but how would you explain to your five year old daughter that her friends from nursery are going to a different school, with a different uniform, different teachers and a different head in the same bloody campus with literally a plaster wall between them? Its **** insane!
That’s exactly the conversation I’ve had to have with all three of my kids who went what they call a “mixed campus” primary school. They’ve never really understood why. I cannot adequately explain it to them.
I don’t think it helps the efforts to drive out the stupid, ingrained horrors of sectarianism when you hammer it into kids from their first day at school that they’re somehow different and not allowed to mix with their Catholic / Non-Denominational friends.
Yes
Maybe it’s ignorance or maybe they don’t care but how would you explain to your five year old daughter that her friends from nursery are going to a different school, with a different uniform, different teachers and a different head in the same bloody campus with literally a plaster wall between them? Its **** insane!
I had no idea such places existed. I am additionally scandalised.
Why the hell don't we in Britain ever take the chance to stop navel-gazing, and look at how other, far more successful systems, work, and just copy them?
I've no problem with them as long as they are forced to become private (with no tax advantages, obvs). If people are willing to pay they can send their kids to whatever school they like, for me.
I witnessed an assembly in a non-religious state secondary school where the (baptist) deputy head spoke of how he'd banned his wife and kids from seeing The Life of Brian and how exorcism was a useful tool if used properly (someone had recently died whilst being 'exorcised'). I was astonished. Religion should be taught as an aspect of cultural anthropology or sociology and proselytising should be banned in all schools, and at school gates.
proselytising should be banned in all schools, and at school gates.
Amen to that brother.
We're agnostic and my kids went to the local non-denominational state primary. There I had to ask permission so that they didn't have to attend the end of term traipse to church, they were put in the nursery class or had to sit in the school reception for the duration. They also faced regular bullying due to their heritage and economic status.
There was no other school in the area which had space in both classes apart from the local Catholic school, I had my apprehensions about sending them there for the reasons mentioned in the above posts but decided that it would be better than them feeling suicidal.
I have been pleasantly surprised. The school is much more diverse and inclusive than the local village school. Less than half of the kids are catholic and it's they who are taken out of class for specific religious education. Instead of prayers they have a daily consideration, so if someone is feeling ill or is having a tough time they talk about how to support that person, bullying is practically non existent and issues are delt with swiftly.
They share classes with people from a variety of backgrounds and countries and are encouraged to question, understand and respect other peoples views. The school fosters a sense of community and provides a good learning environment, which is a stark contrast to the village school. Both schools were rated "very good" by HMIE but it's the nondenominational school which marks the divide between the mainstream and minorities